Book 5 wishlist!

[Da Git]

So, stealing the idea from the Gremlins board (since gremlins are usualy stealing everyone else's s**t, i'm calling turnabout is fair play!) and assuming every faction is going to get some new models in book 5, what would you like to see for Ten Thunders?

For me, Ten Thunders kinda excel in movement with pushes galore, buffing (lots of access to +s, Fast, Focus, Def, etc), allowing for some awesome precision strikes.  We also have an abundance of healing and condition removal.  So these bases are well and truly covered.

So, what I'd like to see are some things that plug the gaps... 

• 10T kinda lack in the blasty department (although the Shadow Emissary can help here)
• I usually find dealling with armour & HtK quite difficult too.  The only things that natively ignore armour (off the top of my head) are the Samurai's sword, which on a slow (M4"), short ranged Ml (1"), ain't that great...  All the rest are master dependent (MacCabe's sabre) key word dependent (Foundry, requiring the Hard Worker upgrade {so Kang or Sparks with Mei, or Mei herself), or suit dependent (Lone Swordsmen, more?).  I don't think there's anything that ignores HtK.  Anything with Armour 2 is quite difficult as our heaviest hitters have min 3, which becomes 1.  Gracie is the worst!
• I also think we're lacking in the really cheap department... We have 3 4ss minions (Tengu, Wastrels, LR Monks) plus the Effigy which is unique and no 3ss models other than totems. 
• It'd also be nice to see some Oni for Asami to summon in the 7/8ss range.
• Another model I'd love to see is The Gweyuja from Chronicles 24.  Maybe duel faction Ressers or Retainer.  Enforcer.  Either is allowed to hire (ala Toshiro's Daimyo ability or summons Onryo (& possible Goryo), has Mark of Jigoku to hand out Adversary (nice for Izamu, Komainu and spirits Yan Lo brings across).  and has a nice melee attack (in the chronicles does 2/3/4, ignoring armour & HtW so kills 2 birds with one stone!)

 

So what do you want to see?

[Tokapondora]

I would definitely prioritize a 3 SS unit. Maybe some kind of Oni Hounds would be cute. And on that note, naturally some more Oni to expand Asami's options. I still feel it was a missed opportunity that the Yokai werent based on the "Hear no Evil, See no Evil, Speak no Evil" monkeys with three slightly different abilities like Titania's minions. Would've given Asami a bit broader a toolbox to start with.

I'd also like to see some more Cast actions. They've had their own breach and Oni have been passing through over the centuries; you'd think the concept of mysticism would be a bit more prevalent in their culture even before the gates to Malifaux opened. Don't really care for having to rely on the Emissary for all my non- Casty business.

And maybe something scary with an attack stat of 7. So far we have... Kang, the Dawn Serpent, Misaki and... Eh... Brewmaster? Whenever I face Df/Wp 7 models I really just feel at the mercy of their hand/flips.

And of course what ^ said; some options to deal with Armor/Inco (like more casty stuff). And maybe some broader defenses than HtK for ourselves.

[Nukemouse]

Another oni enforcer to benefit from the oni synergies without being summonable would be cool, especially if he could use those scraps and corpses generated by oni. A model which uses poison so as to work with Fermented Monks and Akaname would be excellent, perhaps a briliance user who spikes his booze? Brilliant River Monk!

[bindi]

I'd like more of a reason to really go silly on key words- last blossom, foundry, tri-chi etc. Some sort of upgrade along the lines of "if the crew contains x number of keyword models, get this cool bonus".

Maybe something like the old kaeris box. a new henchman with a solid theme, that can slot into fill a weakness with some cool little minions.

 

[Gnomezilla]

8 hours ago, Tokapondora said:

I would definitely prioritize a 3 SS unit. Maybe some kind of Oni Hounds would be cute. And on that note, naturally some more Oni to expand Asami's options. I still feel it was a missed opportunity that the Yokai werent based on the "Hear no Evil, See no Evil, Speak no Evil" monkeys with three slightly different abilities like Titania's minions. Would've given Asami a bit broader a toolbox to start with.

I'd worry that would've ended like the specialized students of the University of Transmortis: costed for summoning and therefore a bit too expensive to hire.

But it would look awesome.

[anencephalous]

I think the OP is pretty on the money here.

For me, in order, it is:

- Something with armour penetration.

- A scheme runner that isn't terrible. I'll take a four point, doesn’t need to be three, just needs to be no frills, movement and survival.

- A low/middle cost unit that can help deal with Frame for Murder. We don’t have burying or paralyse on demand, and our poison/fire units are underwealming. Could even be something we haven’t seen before, like a ninja/assassin unit that has "when this model kills an enemy model with an attack or ability, neither team is considered to have made the kill", or perhaps more simply "This model is not considered enemy by the opposing team for the purposes of scoring VP". A nice two edged sword version of ramped up disguise would be "this model is considered friendly by the enemy player for abilitys, auras, pulses and the scoring of VP".

- A blasty master.

- New oni to fill out the summon sheet. I would be happy if these guys were pretty lack-lustre for their point cost, but lasted an extra turn like Yokai. Interference is so hard without a real summoner.

[Cadaverousbirth]

30 minutes ago, anencephalous said:

- A scheme runner that isn't terrible. I'll take a four point, doesn’t need to be three, just needs to be no frills, movement and survival.

Do you mean Ten Thunders Brothers?  

I agree with most points made so far, 10T are lacking some things other factions have plenty of and fall behind a little for it. More Oni summons would be amazing and so would more keyword-oriented models to help flush out themes in general.

[anencephalous]

1 hour ago, Cadaverousbirth said:

Do you mean Ten Thunders Brothers?  

I agree with most points made so far, 10T are lacking some things other factions have plenty of and fall behind a little for it. More Oni summons would be amazing and so would more keyword-oriented models to help flush out themes in general.

It is true, Ten Thunder Bros are great scheme runners. But then with move six and flight, so is Yasunori, if we are inexplicably going to ignore soulstone costs.

I would love a guild hound/bayou gremlin equivalent, but barring that, I would take something as solid as a piglet, crooligan, terror tot, moleman or winged plague.

[Cadaverousbirth]

The difference between the 5 stones of a brother and the 3/4 of a puppy/tot is a little different than the 12-13 cost of Yas  Different roles, too.

A 10T Hound would be fantastic, but I'm not sure how that would come about. Maybe a 3ss Oni dog? I don't know enough to pick one out of lore.

[Da Git]

Ten Thunder Bros are apparently awesome (I've never actually used one myself...) but lets look at our 4ss options (3ss don't exist!). There's:

• Tengu - nice minion, kinda speedy with A Shooting Star & Flight.  They're also great for scheme disruption with Still the Earth.  Unfortunately, they really need someone else to drop the scheme markers to Shoot to.  So even though they're 4ss, they lose a lot if they act independently... Great summons for Asami though...  Also, Df/Wp4 hurts.
• Wastrels - Again poor Df4/Wp5 hurts.  Slow with wk 4.
• Shadow Effigy - Great stats, Df6/Wp5, Armour, HtK.  Good (0) buff for the leader.
• Akaname - Haven't used but seem more supportive...

There's no independent cheap models to run schemes.  I actually really struggle to get decent model counts in 10T...

A 10T Oni hound would be amazing!

[thatlatinspeakingguy]

As for hypothetical TT-hounds, I see two possibilities:

- 3 ss, but then not Oni

- 4 ss, and then Oni (for the same reason why there is no summonable minion with cost 3 in ressurs)

And I dislike both ideas.

 

[Cadaverousbirth]

28 minutes ago, thatlatinspeakingguy said:

As for hypothetical TT-hounds, I see two possibilities:

- 3 ss, but then not Oni

- 4 ss, and then Oni (for the same reason why there is no summonable minion with cost 3 in ressurs)

And I dislike both ideas.

Night Terrors.

Using Asami's AP to summon a 3 stone model that will last a turn or two doesn't seem unbalanced to me. It would need a 7 versus the 8 for a Tengu/Akaname. *shrug*

One quick search later and I found backgrounds for the Shisa and Inugami which are both dog-like spirits that could easily work. I'd lean more towards the Shisa who are similar to the Komainu and have that guardian spirit vibe which is very different than the current ultra-violent Oni feeling.

[Eclipse]

I would mostly prefer the following things I found necessary to flesh out my favorite lists:
- Armor penetration! Seriously, even with all the + flips and focus I can only shrug helplessly when facing a heavily armored crew most of the time;
- A cheap Last Blossom Enforcer so I can take Smoke & Shadows with something other than Yamaziko for once;
- Another, Ten-Thunders only Darkened model! This might not be must-have, but still the thought of either a named character under the infuence of Brilliance, or an evolved/different utility form of Brilliance addicts makes me giggle like a schoolgirl.
And certainly, a 3ss model would be great... (Edit: But maybe not balanced )

[Nukemouse]

I think a new Darkened model is definitely a cool idea, especially if they make it a crossover with another theme, similar to how Akaname are Oni+Tri-Chi or how Dead Outlaws mix Tormented with Bandit.

[bindi]

4 hours ago, Nukemouse said:

I think a new Darkened model is definitely a cool idea, especially if they make it a crossover with another theme, similar to how Akaname are Oni+Tri-Chi or how Dead Outlaws mix Tormented with Bandit.

a brilliance ridden geisha, so could be last blossom and darkened.

[Tokapondora]

I still wonder what Lingxuzi from Yan Lo's vignette is going to end up being. I'll be real disappointed if he's not going to be a new model by book 6 at the most.

[Da Git]

3 hours ago, Tokapondora said:

I still wonder what Lingxuzi from Yan Lo's vignette is going to end up being. I'll be real disappointed if he's not going to be a new model by book 6 at the most.

I'm guessing he's going to be a fluff character only, much like the GG, Oyobun  and tyrants. 

Inspired by @Eclipse, I think a cool Last Blossom model would be a Torakage-style ninja.

Enforcer, Last Blossom

Torakage-esque stats, wd7-8

Has Disguised, From the shadows and Works Best Alone. 

Nonjato ignores armour, 2/3/5. Has a (non built-in) trigger: Hide the body - Enemy models killed by this attack do not drop markers and do not count as being killed by an enemy model. 

Shuriken - same as Torakage. 

Has smoke bombs but can be thrown (Rg 6")

7-8ss?

[Eclipse]

On 5/8/2017 at 2:56 AM, bindi said:

a brilliance ridden geisha, so could be last blossom and darkened.

Where is the "Like twice" or "Giga-like" button?
Also @Da Git, thrown Smoke Bombs, now THAT is rad

[ArcticPangolin]

On 5/8/2017 at 9:56 AM, bindi said:

a brilliance ridden geisha, so could be last blossom and darkened.

BLACK SHEEP!

[Vorschlag]

Guy above deserves a reward - if for no other reason than using an avatar from one of the greatest video games of all time -

Slightly off topic...

[Vorschlag]

double post

[anencephalous]

So we voted:

 

Blasty Master x2

Armour pen x4

Cheap minion x5

More Oni summons x2

Gweyuja X 2

More cast actions x 1

Attack of 7 x 1

Oni Enforcer x 1

Another poison model x1

Key word upgrades x1

Solution to Frame for Murder x1

Last Blossom Enforcer x1

Darkened Model x2

 

From our list we got three – a darkened model (Maddox), the Tanuki for poison and a few cast actions. Not exactly a crowd pleasing set of new models. Certainly doesn't fill the gaps we identified.

[Eclipse]

I wonder if Wyrd intentionally try to avoid giving us many low-cost minions - with the access to Fast and Recalled Training, spam/alpha strike lists similar to RatJoy Viks could easily emerge and be super annoying at the very least.
On the other hand, we are now gaining three new minions with a cost of 5: Not the cheapest, but cheap-ish nonetheless. We now have ten minions with cost of five - the most out of all factions. I think only Neverborn and Ressurrections have access to so many lower-end minions (in which those are mostly 3 and 4 ss though).
Also the power creep does not seem present for most models. The Cyclops, Serena and something else I don't remember are pretty strong, though.

[Rathnard]

I must admit, I'm struggling to see how people are seeing certain things as gaps in the 10-T lineup. In particular:

 

Armour

IMO Ten Thunders are better equipped than most factions to deal with armour. Off the top of my head we have the Samurai, the Hard Worker upgrade, Lone Swordsman, McCabes Sabre and if you're using Yan Lo, the Goryo. I believe that's as good as, if not better than most other factions. 

On top of that we've got better access than most to Focus attacks, which allows for nice boosts of damage and is a good way to minimise the effectiveness of armour. 

Scheme Runners

For specifically running schemes we've got Tengu, 10-T brother, Low River monks, Yokai and Wandering River monks, all of which are fantastic in their own way, depending on exactly where and when you want those scheme markers. If you want a cheap, indepenent Scheme  runner then Yokai and 10-T Brothers are your guys. If you want a independent scheme runner who's near-impossible to counter then look no further than the Wandering River Monk, who's absolutely worth the 7SS you pay for him. I used to think 10-T were lacking in scheme runners, but that's really not the case any more. 

Master/Models w. Blast

You mean besides Misaki, Mei Feng and Shenlong? All three have good melee attacks that can put out blasts, and they're made all the more dangerous with positive damage flips from Stalking Bisento (for Misaki) and/or Recalled Training. Outside of Masters there's the Shadow Emissary, Yamaziko and probably a few others I can't remember off the top of my head. I think we're pretty good for Blasts.

7-value attacks

The question here isn't whether we need a 7-value attack stat (you missed Yan Lo BTW, who can get up to 8), but whether we need more ways to deal with Df 7 models. And to be honest, I don't think we do. As above we've got access to blast and there's a bunch of models who can choose to target Wp too. Easy access to focus and positive flips reduces the need for a high attack stat too. 

3-SS minion

Eh, this is neither here nor there to me. I've never had a problem with Interference (I usually play Misaki for it, though Asami and Mei Feng can summon if you really feel that's necessary for the strat), and model count/out-activation has never been too much of an issue. Some kind of Oni hound thing would be neat, but I wouldn't say it's strictly necessary. 

Damaging Ca-attack actions

Other than the Shadow Emissary we've got Lust, the Komainu, Yan Lo, the Obsidian Oni and of course Hungering Darkness. Plus alot of the Book 5 models look to have Ca-based attacks too. Then there's Izamu and the Lone Swordsman, who have triggers to ignore incorporeal (which is what you're really after, right?). Honestly this is something I've never felt a need for.

---

As for what the 10-T needs, well, to be honest I think from the perspective of tactical options on the board, they're in a really good position. There's actually nothing that I feel the faction strictly NEEDS.

As for commenting on the models we've gotten, that's for another thread. ;)

[Da Git]

@Rathnard, I guess I'm going to have to try the Earth Samurai a bit more.  TBH I never really looked at their combat potential, mostly just going for Favour of Jigoku and just shooting stuff.  I'll have to give mini-Izzi a go! Especially against Gremlins, my friend loves Gracie & I always really struggle against her.  I imagine Joss would be as bad if not worse.

As for the other armour ignore, Lone Swordsmen requires a suit, and the others are all master dependent (although I guess you could always put Hard Worker on Kang). 

I guess I've just been spoilt coming from Ressers where I mostly play Kirai whose crew has a plethora of armour ignore, Reva & McMourning (& yes I realise those are all master dependent... but all of the summoners can get Shikome).