Next Errata --> Totems?

[Sandmann]

@rubbe That's a pretty generalised statement  Speaking only from personal experience, I can say that after my first games the Scales of Justice for example never saw play again. I didn't even bother getting the Flame(s) - but I have never not  taken the Printing Press when playing Nelly. That, for me, seems to suggest that not all Totems are created equal, and that some are very subpar.

[Ludvig]

On 2017-05-04 at 1:37 PM, rubbe said:

I think totems are good as they are. no, not good, balanced.

As a nvb player i have to say just one thing: poltergeist is pure power! Minion, may do interact, incorporeal, give negative to wp in 2", walk 6... for 5 points is more than fair!

So the primordial magic and governor's proxy are balanced in your opinion?! I'm not surprised to hear you say you play neverborn.

[Four_N_Six]

I always thought a second round of totems would be cool. Maybe just faction specific, to keep it simple at least.

[rubbe]

5 hours ago, Ludvig said:

So the primordial magic and governor's proxy are balanced in your opinion?! I'm not surprised to hear you say you play neverborn.

well, it was a very general statement.

I have to admit i don't take primordial in consideration (i own every neverborn&guild model, and the generic totems are not owned -- make a thought about governor's proxy just to enjoy the sculpt)

my think is that totem are balanced as they are, and i think that having generic totem less efficent that specific ones is fluff-balanced

[-Loki-]

6 hours ago, rubbe said:

my think is that totem are balanced as they are, and i think that having generic totem less efficent that specific ones is fluff-balanced

Err, the point is the generic totems usually aren't less efficient.

[Ludvig]

7 hours ago, rubbe said:

well, it was a very general statement.

I have to admit i don't take primordial in consideration (i own every neverborn&guild model, and the generic totems are not owned -- make a thought about governor's proxy just to enjoy the sculpt)

my think is that totem are balanced as they are, and i think that having generic totem less efficent that specific ones is fluff-balanced

I have never before heard the term fluff-balanced. That just sounds like "not balanced" to me since balanced is meant from a pure rules perspective. The fluff doesn't have balance.

If you have never even considered either generic totem in a game, how can you know their rules are balanced? A lot of people think Old cranky and Primordial magic are too good, not the opposite.

I think the governors proxy is so bad that it is just a model I can never take if I want my list to be good. I have tried using it and it was just a waste of three stones (on top of not allowing me to take my specific totem). Idon't see why a nicely sculpted model should have rules making it almost unplayable.

 

[Ryin]

I think that the scales of justice is the most garbage totem in the game, personally. There are situations I can at least THINK I would want to take Governor's proxy. There is no universe where I wouldn't take Student of Conflict over Scales in a Justice list. 

I also find Pandora's totem to be pretty awful, too. The primordial magic existing is certainly not helping with that opinion. I just feel like I'd get more use out of a sorrow and I don't even take THEM either. 

Cranky definitely has his uses in certain Ulix crews, butPenelope is pretty good too. 

The problem isn't necessarily the totems, though. Even if some of them probably do need buffed/Cuddled. When building for a meta, there's no reason to fix something that isn't broken and the totems that get used a lot are so synergistic, that there's no reason NOT to take them. When you're looking to min/max, there's no room for a lot of the quirkiness that totems often bring in. Sonnia, for example. I don't think that purifying flame is necessarily BAD as a totem or for her, but, malifaux child just does a lot more work for her than the flame does (because it's basically a one time use bomb).

People tend to only think outside of the box when trying to break the meta and a lot of times one disastrous attempt can kill that even if it wasn't necessarily the model in question's fault. 

Having a model that could be used during a certain strategy against a certain faction/master is great, but not if those situations never come up and I think that is where some of the unused totems are at. (if they aren't just outright bad)

[Ludvig]

@Ryin The scales aren't really dependant on being antwhere in particular. You could just hire it for the card draw. Against crews with a few extra card draws or if you have lots of discard effects (Francisco usually drops two cards from my hand for finesse and flurry) it can really make back it's cost from the backlines. The proxy needa to br within 3" of you other models to have any real effect and has wk 3, that doesn't make sense to me. The death effect is also next to useless since no one will ever feel the need to kill it.

 

[Ryin]

I don't think it is worth four points and definitely not better than fast, even at one less cost. everything else on his card might as well not even be there. Maybe I'll give it another shot, but, I dunno. 

I've taken the proxy in preerrata Lucius lists and he was surprisingly able to keep up and get off his fair share of healing. I have also taken him in perdita obey lists where he most certainly gets his points worth. I mean, those aren't exactly auto include situations, and I'm not even really saying the proxy is GOOD, but, I just do't think he's useless. 

[Ludvig]

6 minutes ago, Ryin said:

I don't think it is worth four points and definitely not better than fast, even at one less cost. everything else on his card might as well not even be there. Maybe I'll give it another shot, but, I dunno. 

I've taken the proxy in preerrata Lucius lists and he was surprisingly able to keep up and get off his fair share of healing. I have also taken him in perdita obey lists where he most certainly gets his points worth. I mean, those aren't exactly auto include situations, and I'm not even really saying the proxy is GOOD, but, I just do't think he's useless. 

It'sa good thing it costs three soulstones and not four.

The point of a generic totem is to be generally useful. A general totem should also hold up well to a general totem from any other faction, that is sort of their best comparison point. Why is the proxy more expenaive than the PM?!

[Ryin]

Still too much. ;P 

Shows you how much I use it. I don't think I have since 1.5. I'd still take the 2 extra points for fast. Even if LJ only gets it once a turn, there's rarely ever a turn where it is not giving fast to SOMEONE. Student only ever needs to move on its own maybe one turn or, unless the whole game's just gone to pot, but I don't know if the scales are saving me THEN, either. 

[Ludvig]

23 minutes ago, Ryin said:

Still too much. ;P 

Shows you how much I use it. I don't think I have since 1.5. I'd still take the 2 extra points for fast. Even if LJ only gets it once a turn, there's rarely ever a turn where it is not giving fast to SOMEONE. Student only ever needs to move on its own maybe one turn or, unless the whole game's just gone to pot, but I don't know if the scales are saving me THEN, either. 

I'm not trying to argue that the scales are really good or better than the student. I'm trying to argue that the proxy is the worst totem in the game and really poorly designed in it's role as a generally useful model.

The student can make the lady fast t1 which could be helpful to an emissary alpha build or to any build really as a fast Lady J is a good deterrent to people who get cocky with their own alpha models. After that she is very likely too far up but as you said, some model may be left within reach of the student t2. If not you can double walk the student t2 which should let you give fast to something worthwhile for the rest of the game. 5ss for 4 turns of fast seems ok to me.

To put the scales in perspective: 3ss for 5 extra cards in hand is ok to me since 2ss and an upgrade slot is what arcanists pay and they don't get an activation in that price. The guild isn't really spoiled for choice on the 3ss activation front. If you manage to activate it so you get the action off twice I would say it is really strong but even just one card per turn seems ok to me and should be doable against most lists.

[Ludvig]

I would actually prefer the scales to the proxy as the guild general totem since card draws are rare in the faction. Maybe swap accomplice for companion so you could make sure to enginner a good card draw situation by cheating heavily and using discard effects to then automatically gain some cards back.

[Ryin]

I guess to bring it back around to the topic at hand, what generic totems aren't just niche or corner case use totems? 

I feel like the Primordial Magic, old cranky and maybe Malifaux Child to a certain extent do not fall into that category, but, as mentioned, I have never even seen anyone take the essence of power, governor's proxy or grave spirit. I wouldn't even take the grave spirit with anyone but maybe Tara (I am still not a big fan of Karina even WITH her summon upgrade, tbh) or MAYBE Molly if you weren't summoning the Necrotic Machine. I think Kamaitachi si probably only useful in SOME Lucas builds, but I don't play Ten Thunders, so i can't really say. Maybe Asami? I have heard some people don't really care for Amanojaku. 

Another question is, what is the ratio that makes the most sense for balancing a totems use? 

As in Master's Specific Totem/No Totem/Generic totem  Where do you want that at? 60%/10%/30%? I don't know where that number is (and it could/should probably be different for every master, too, maybe. 

 also, @Ludvig , I actually to think that the scales of justice becomes better in other crews outside of Justice. I would maybe consider taking it in a Nellie crew over the printing press, since her hand pretty much evaporates, you're probably getting both cards each turn. (well, if the rest of the scales card wasn't utterly useless. It's so fun to pinball things around the printing press)

[Ludvig]

I would be fine with master specific totems about 70-80% of the time and generic ones for the rest of the games. Playing without a totem doesn't need to be on par as long as the totems compare favourably to each other and every master can take a generic one without feeling gimped if you aren't too thrilled about what your own totem does.

[Ludvig]

@Ryin I could see it in a Justice crew if you had a lawyer or two, they drain your hand quickly. If anyone could take it I think both McMourning and Lucius would also find a place for it occasionally since their crews can get really heavy on the discards.

[Ludvig]

@Torsul I think I actually said that I would be ok with increasing the primordial magic's coat in the nvb thread but I agree that it would be more meaningful to up the usability of totems that never get taken.

Even if different factions have different levels of access to certain mechanics I don't see how it is good for the game to have some totems that are so bad that no lists ever run them. The governor's proxy just has really bad rules, if it had range 6 or 12 on the heal it might be usable since heals aren't too common in guild but a 3" range combined with a 3" walk is just shit because you will hardly ever be in range of the model in need of the healing. You are often better off taking the malifaux child since it wil heal and probably so something useful as well.

In my view, an extra card is actually a bigger thing the less cards you are already drawing, I believe the term is diminishing returns? Maybe the primordial would actually be less used in arcanists since they have both ample card draws and no shortage of markers. Both Raspy and Ramos also have pretty useful totems that probably surpass the PM.

I fail to see how it is good design to have a model that is so bad no one takes it? That design space could have been used by a model that actually did something. The errata wouldn't be aimed at increasing the cost of PM but buffing the abilities of the totems percieved as crap so they actually had a place somewhere.

[Ryin]

@Ludvig that's arguably over half the generic totems and more than a few master specific ones. 

I think an issue was, even by book 2, there really weren't faction metas. The game was still growing. Wyrd was still sort of figuring things out and still transferring rules from 1.5 most of the generic totems really do not have metaplay taken into account.

(The same could be said about some of the effigies too, I think)

[Ludvig]

@Torsul fair enough, I must have misunderstood you. I do agree that it's tricky to compare stuff across factions but sometimes I think you have to dare to do it. If something is better in a comparable way I like to discuss it. I was one of the people incessantly whining about the difference in efficiency between Lucius and Colette and I think his errata turned out well. It doesn't look like he came out as some unbeatable powerhouse but he is a lot more fun now.

@Ryin it sounds to me like you agree that they were designed without all the info and suffer for it. I think that is a good reason to have another look at the totems now that we have more info. Testing and redesigning a few totems shouldn't be that big of a deal, especially since, as Torsul pointed out, there aren't really any gamebreakingly good totems.

Just redesigning those that seem pointless to be percieved as having a point would be enough, since it's so tricky to compare between factions we would probably never realise if one totem got a tiny bit too good or too bad, the important thing is that they feel like they have a purpose so that taking one over the other is a meaningful choice.

Some people say the cherub and poltergeist suck and always take the pm while others love them to bits. That tells me that they are in a good spot, doesn't matter if one is "objectively" a little better, they do such different things that it probably isn't even possible to crown one better than the other.

If almost everyone who plays a certain master never feel the need to use their unique totem and almost no one who plays all the masters in a faction ever se what the generic one could offer any master at all I think it is bad for the game.

[Ludvig]

Next errata would of course need to be the christmas one. I would wager that the summer errata is far into testing right now and I wouldn't want to propose some hack job with insufficient testing.

[Ryin]

@Ludvig yeah. I think there's a big difference between trying something out or finding a niche list for a model and it having serious consideration. 

For me, that's really what it comes down to. Is this model being seriously considered by players during list building. Nothing is going to be taken ALL the time, but if people are seriously considering it, they are buying it and putting it in their bag. If THEY aren't finding a use for it, they still may talk about it or recommend it to someone who will.

[Cedar]

I play mainly as outcasts, and our totems are pretty good except in some cases, but Karina is not worth the cost, same as student of conflict. Lady Ligeia is too fragile for a model that wants to be close to enemy, and Malifaux child have better synergy with masters like Kaeris or Sonnia rater than Outcasts. Steam trunk would be fine if it would get Freikorps characteristic and accomplice, so it could move to the right spot, then accomplice his friend to heal/remove markers or burning. 

[Bengt]

14 hours ago, Ludvig said:

You are often better off taking the malifaux child since it wil heal and probably so something useful as well.

The Malifaux Child require a 7 to heal so its healing is pretty marginal, perhaps especially in Guild who really want to use the higher rams for crits.

As for the Student of Conflict, I think it can be decent (far from great though) in Guard the Stash and other pools where you expect a fairly static brawl to form, I expect double walking the first turn is the way to go though.

I think any card draw is great, so a Rush of Magic totem would be a consideration in any crew of any Faction. Balance the Scales is a bit more situational since you have to have less cards in hand, but it seems like an auto take vs Arcanists if nothing else.

[WWHSD]

It seems like Mouse would benefit from getting something like Agile that lets him disengage so that he can then use his abilities to reposition other models. Either that or make him significant or able to contribute to some schemes through marker placement or removal. 

I think that would pump his value up enough with out getting ridiculous.

[Zebo]

On 7/5/2017 at 0:04 AM, Cedar said:

I play mainly as outcasts, and our totems are pretty good except in some cases, but Karina is not worth the cost, same as student of conflict. Lady Ligeia is too fragile for a model that wants to be close to enemy, and Malifaux child have better synergy with masters like Kaeris or Sonnia rater than Outcasts. Steam trunk would be fine if it would get Freikorps characteristic and accomplice, so it could move to the right spot, then accomplice his friend to heal/remove markers or burning. 

Sorry, It's funny to see in the same post "oucats totems are good" followed by 5 of 9 outcast totems fixes xD

 

I've only played Von Schill, and only with the steam trunk, I'm still not sure about it. It makes a tough crew even tougher, but it also make a card hungry crew even worse, draining my entire hand in a pair of activations. 

 

I think it could have been not discarding actions, or maybe some kind of 0 action that allows to draw a card (make 1 damage to friendly Steam Trunk  to draw a card). 

 

Also agree with SoC being a little bit overcosted.