Next Errata --> Totems?

[Da Git]

So to continue a conversation I started in the Neverborn thread about Totems that don't see much play or generic totems that do/n't see too much play, I thought I'd open this up to all the Factions...

So to me, it seems like there a some totems you always see, some you never see, and some that are a balanced choice.  I think totems should always be a consideration with good synergies with their specific masters or a fair number of masters in the case of the generic totems or simple not taking one at all...

Which Totems do you see as too powerful (I don't think there are many but we'll see!), and which totems do you think need a buff?

In my opinion:

Too Good:

• Old Cranky - This guy just has way too many things that just automatically happen, all his auras (which he has 3!), his (0) action.  It's just too much for a totem and means you rarely see a fair few of the master-specific ones
• Puke-worm, aka the Primordial Magic - While this one doesn't do too much, he's just so cheap at 2ss, doesn't require much thought, can be game changing and again means that there are a few generic totems that don't see much play.
• Zombie Chihuahua - Seems to be a near auto-take... I can't think of any reason why you wouldn't take him, especially in Ressers. Maybe give the End of Activation Poison dump a TN?  Make it a (0) that competes with Expunge?
• Enslaved Nephilim - Seems very Auto-take... Influence & especially Shackled just seem so good.

Now, this is not to say I don't like generic totems or think they shouldn't be as good as the master-specific ones, I just think they need to be an option.  For me a perfect example would be the Ten Thunders, look at MacCabe, want to play hounds, take Luna; don't want to play hounds, play Kamaitachi.  Shenlong has a good choice, (peasants will usually win, but the Wonder Weasel is far from bad).  Lots of people have said pairing the Weasel with Terracotta Warriors is amazing, where others think it's too expensive.  So I think this is a very nice balance.

Need a boost:

Guild?

• Governor's Proxy - just garbage really, who ever takes this?
• Scales of Justice - Not horrible, but needs a bump... I'd probably drop the TN on Tip the Scales to maybe about 10 (so needs a 7) as apposed to 14 now, remove the gun icon and make it a (0).  Then this action might actually be used...
• Purifying Flame - Never seen this one and never heard it talked about, so I'm assuming it needs a boost? 
• Any others?

Ressers

• Vulture - Never really hear anyone recommending/mentioning it
• Not sure here... more experienced people?

Arcanists

• Mouse - Most people seem to think he's just too expensive for 4ss
• The rest seem fine to me... But I also don't play them... Others?

Neverborn

• The Gorar - I think the From Malifaux We Are Born needs to be a little bit more flexible, maybe anywhere more then 6" from your deployment zone?  That would still hopefully make it more interactive, so you can't hide it.  Otherwise, make it "When a Friendly model within 6" of this model is killed or sacrificed..."  More restrictive, but doesn't put it in the enemy's sights as much or as terrain dependent.  I also wouldn't mind seeing his 2 attacks go up to Ca5.
• Cherub - I think this one is fine and the Primoridal Magic taking a hit would make it a better choice
• Poltergeist - Same as the Cherub - maybe a slight boost like to its defences like Manipulative or +1wd?

Outcasts

• Lady Ligiea - Needs more survivability?  just seems to be a huge target maybe...  Not sure
• Steam Trunk? Others?

Gremlins?

• No idea here... don't play this faction at all...

Ten Thunders

• Shang - Mixed opinions on this... Maybe just boost his Sh to 5?
• I dunno, the rest seem pretty decent to me... Others?

Ok... Go for it people, agree? Disagree? Your opinions?

Have fun!

[icebreaker]

You can't looks to the master's totems separately. I think question "Does this totem need a buff?" mean  "Does this master need a buff?".

[Da Git]

3 minutes ago, icebreaker said:

You can't looks to the master's totems separately. I think question "Does this totem need a buff?" mean  "Does this master need a buff?".

I'd disagree with that... For example, I don't think anyone can say Lilith is underpowered, it's just that a lot of people would always take the Puke-worm... Therefore, I'd either say ol' Pukey needs a slight cuddle or Cherub wants a slight boost.

Opinions differ on the above... but it serves as a good example.

[Jernmajoren]

Overall I agree with the OP that there is too much difference in the value of the Totems and some re-balancing would be good for game play .

Perhaps making specific upgrades for Totems would be a way to go?

With Totem specific upgrades and each Totem allowed 1, then with say 2 or 3 upgrades for each totem, they would also add more variation to games.

 

[icebreaker]

I don't see that Puke-worm is much better Cherub. Cherub is ideal for mark of death which Lilith can do easily. It fast and have DF6 + have a push for punch and slow all that with not bad sh5

[solkan]

 

54 minutes ago, Da Git said:

Ressers

• Vulture - Never really hear anyone recommending/mentioning it

I would suggest a two step process:

Step one:  Read the things that Vulture does.

Step two:  Contemplate man's place in the universe, and how it's easy to overlook simple wonders.

[Gnomezilla]

I don't hear of the Arcanists' Essence of Power taking the field much either--looks to have resilience similar to Sonnia's Purifying Flame, that is to say, none. At least the Essence of Power wants to stay alive in the backfield, instead of the Purifying Flame wanting to stay alive in the melee. Kaeris' Eternal Flame is also bypassed often, for the Malifaux Child. (Rasputina's Wendigo IS a Malifaux Child, so the third impassable-terrain-generating master gets to use her own totem instead.)

None of the Young LaCroix, the Little Lass, or the Lovely Assistant see much use. So many cute sculpts, wasted. Young LaCroix are a case where you probably would need to fix the master's mechanics to take the totem, the Little Lass is overcosted, and the Lovely Assistant seems fine but overshadowed.

[edopersichetti]

46 minutes ago, Gnomezilla said:

I don't hear of the Arcanists' Essence of Power taking the field much either--looks to have resilience similar to Sonnia's Purifying Flame, that is to say, none. At least the Essence of Power wants to stay alive in the backfield, instead of the Purifying Flame wanting to stay alive in the melee. Kaeris' Eternal Flame is also bypassed often, for the Malifaux Child. (Rasputina's Wendigo IS a Malifaux Child, so the third impassable-terrain-generating master gets to use her own totem instead.)

None of the Young LaCroix, the Little Lass, or the Lovely Assistant see much use. So many cute sculpts, wasted. Young LaCroix are a case where you probably would need to fix the master's mechanics to take the totem, the Little Lass is overcosted, and the Lovely Assistant seems fine but overshadowed.

I actually use the Young and the Lass quite regularly. Of the three you mentioned, only the Assistant is a bit meh, simply because her crackerjack needs a very high card to cast and her deck manipulation skill is very situational. But the Young I find useful, and they're very cheap, while the Lass is, if anything, undercosted for what she does! She hits hard man!

I also think Essence of Power sees quite a bit of use with Raspy thanks to the increased casting value...we must play in very different metas

[wizuriel]

I would argue that Old Cranky isn't too bad. He is strong, but also 4SS for a peon and made with paper who needs to be close to the action for his 3

Somer works well with either Skeeters or Old Cranky. I tend to take Skeeters more, but depends a lot on strat and schemes as it should imo.

Ophelia: I only take Old Cranky with her as her upgrade swapping is pretty meh making Bayou Gremlins a better buy imo than Young LaCroix.

Wong: Tend to take Old Cranky as the lovely assistant and rarely get cracker jack timing off, and Wong goes through too many cards too fast for prepare the show. 

Mah: I take neither as Little Lass is too overcost and bad and Old Cranky has too much trouble trying to keep up with her.

Ulix: Take his totem as Old Cranky doesn't really help him

Brewmaster: imo needs Apprentice Weasley for the revival, though old cranky isn't bad with him (again depends what I want to do with him).

Zipp: Generally take Earl as Old Cranky can't keep up that easily and I like Earl for giving suits and that he is a minion that can take advantage of Zipp's speed. 

[Dogmantra]

1 minute ago, wizuriel said:

Mah: I take neither as Little Lass is too overcost and bad and Old Cranky has too much trouble trying to keep up with her.

Take the third option and bring the Student of Conflict. Fast Mah is quite a sight to behold

[wizuriel]

Just now, Dogmantra said:

Take the third option and bring the Student of Conflict. Fast Mah is quite a sight to behold

I've honestly never considered merc totems with Gremlins (I take the Child a few times with Guild and NB masters).

Would a fast Mah really be useful though? I find she tends to easily over extend and she either destroys a target she charges or it has some defensive ability in which case she bounces off it and cries in the corner. 

[Dogmantra]

In an ideal world you charge in, smash something up, then use her (0) to push back into the student. Even without either of her Ml buffs, at Ml6 3/4/5 you can do an awful lot of killing with 4AP. If you hit Ml8 you're golden. Also use her as a flanker more than a direct hitter. She's better when the enemy force is split up somewhat. Once she's too far from anyone, the student can either act as a little beater or hand Fast out to something else useful.

I mean I really rate the student. I take it over the master specific totems in Outcasts too (although tbf I only play Von Schill and Parker Barrows occasionally).

[Math Mathonwy]

2 hours ago, wizuriel said:

Ophelia: I only take Old Cranky with her as her upgrade swapping is pretty meh making Bayou Gremlins a better buy imo than Young LaCroix.

You don't need to swap the Upgrades - I most of the time simply Plink with them and use the (0)Action. But unless you go completely Gun-free with Ophelia, Youngs are a crazy bargain. Take two, load two guns and you've sortakinda paid two Stones for two models. Also, I think that it is worth remembering that Bayou Gremlins are 50% more expensive than Young LaCroix. Six stones gets you three Youngs but only two Bayous. And Youngs Focusing next to Lenny are horrid for the opponent.

2 hours ago, wizuriel said:

Mah: I take neither as Little Lass is too overcost and bad and Old Cranky has too much trouble trying to keep up with her.

I find her nice as well. In GG17 Peons give very little to the opponent so she is extremely expendable. I usually give her the Apron which makes her somewhat durable and she usually does good.

2 hours ago, wizuriel said:

Brewmaster: imo needs Apprentice Weasley for the revival, though old cranky isn't bad with him (again depends what I want to do with him).

Do you get the revival to go off often? I've managed it twice I think? I consider Wesley much more for Binge.

[Dogmantra]

3 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Do you get the revival to go off often? I've managed it twice I think? I consider Wesley much more for Binge.

I find it is often more a deterrent to attacking Brewmaster, particularly if he's already activated that turn. Although I have managed to get it off several times. And I would agree that Binge is more of a reason to take Wesley. Or the occasional attempt at Hangover.

[wizuriel]

I find I have trouble with Binge going off with Wesley. The fact  that Brewmaster can revive though tends to change how my opponents deal with him and imo that justifies Wesley. As mentioned though I also will take cranky with Brewmaster so end of the day both totems are viable with him imo. 

 

Personally I just don't find Young benefit Ophelia enough to justify them over Old Cranky for her. She has an easy time keeping old cranky close and can really maximize the  from him. Most of the time running Ophelia I take dirty cheater (debatable if still need) and either liquid bravery or hide in the mud depending on opponents faction. I don't find any of her guns really have an attack or a 0 that most of the time isn't better than her regular actions (though still worth using an AP 1st turn to give her something to plink off of)

[hydranixx]

10 hours ago, Da Git said:

Ressers

• Vulture - Never really hear anyone recommending/mentioning it
• Not sure here... more experienced people?

Resser totems are in a pretty good spot, compared with other factions. When I look at Guild for example, there's always-take totems and never-take totems, and nothing in between. Almost all Resser totems see a reasonable amount of table time so I think our totem line up is reasonably well balanced.

What I appreciate most is that there's often a compelling choice to make between Graveyard Spirit and a master's specific totem. The +2 Armour buff and the fact he has no TNs is great for a faction full of summoners, while his (0) can be incredible for things like Ceaseless Advance or our numerous instances of Terrifying. On the other hand, things like Necrotic Engine, Soul Porter, Vulture can also be superb choices if you build your crew in a specific way, and can be much more valuable than GYS when you have a more specific goal for them. 

Some masters would never bother with Graveyard Spirit, such as Reva, but for at least half our masters, it doesn't feel like there's an automatic yes or no answer.

If any changes were required, maybe Lost Love could do with some love. Many Kirai players don't even bother with him. I'm not sure if it's his price, or that he's Insignificant, or maybe something else entirely. Perhaps an experienced Kirai player could shed some light here. 

[Wolfpact]

The only downside to the Vulture I see is that my usual opponent has realized what it does and wants that bird dead as soon as possible when the game starts.

[hydranixx]

Totally fine. It takes 1-2 AP from your opponent to die, drops a Corpse Marker, and you raise a Hanged out of it. 

[dancater]

Totally agree with the sentiment in this topic.  

Totems are a common area where small thematic addition models should be considered and the actual models have very wide and divergent game play, power and utility potential.  In short across the faction some totems never see play, certain masters effectively have no totem, sometimes this is because of no viable totem for the master others see the generic totem so useful that it overwhelms and displaces the intrinsic master totem.  Both outcomes are not desirable.

So the issues are refined down in two parts:

1. The master specific totems are they to powerful (taken in 90-100% of games and critical to the master play) or weak (seen only in intentionally thematic crews likely >25% of the time, non-competitive) or about right.
2. Then the generic totems are they over powered (seen in multiple masters frequently, with certain masters always), stable (feature in multiple masters lists on occasion) or under powered (so seen almost never in any list or only in a highly niche build for a certain master).

But then these questions demand the answer of how often a master specific or generic totem should appear in lists, should they be critical to the masters play, supportive or just schtick and theme?

So here is my thinking (an 80/80/20 concept):

Any master, any crew, any faction; a totem should always be a valid choice to consider, they should be competitive and I'd like to see totems in 80-85% of lists builds.  However the totem should not be central to the function of the master, instead it is a model which provides support, some enhancement and options.

The master specific totem should be generally stronger than the generic totem for a given master, applicable to more build (ideally for me featuring in about 80% of builds where a totem is included).

However the generic should be interesting, perhaps offering something novel that the factions and masters find rare or difficult (maybe making about 20% of the lists with a totem).

Now that is the 80% of games with a totem which is 80% the master specific choice and 20% generic faction totem which is an impossible dream goal, Malifaux has too many moving parts for every master, faction and totem to consistently achieve these numbers across the whole large range.  But equally the design should strive for this balance (and generally Malifaux is pretty reliable in striving for a balance between factions and within factions).  I'd maybe add another level which are the Outcast merc totems which perhaps should see occasional play in certain faction lists (so maybe 5% table time..?).

I play Arcanists mainly so I'll give my thoughts on them:

• The Essence of Power is a rarely seen model, it is not an immense force multiplier and is very fragile as well as slow.  Cheap yes but basically in most competitive play it is a negilible or even burdensome inclusion.  Definitely could use a buff. 
• Ramos and the Brass Archanid - solid selection, commonly seen (its so damn big its difficult to miss), I'd say about right.  Problem is EofP is so weak and not competition.
• Rasputina and the Wendigo - perhaps a shade too good, it is a common include and rarely is the Essence of Power again problem is EofP is so weak and not competition.  
• Marcus and the Jackolope - again solid, powerful without being oppressive, theme without being essential to master play again problem is EofP is so weak and not competition.
• Mei and the Emberling - perhaps a shade weak for the faction specific totems in Arcanists, still I've had success with it, useful.  Again refer to EofP flaws.
• Colette and the Doves - well she summons them on certain builds and can also include multiple, so very common, but don't feel to OP specially since the important Prompt x3 + dove (+) and Howard (or other beater) AP filth was cuddled by the Prompt cuddle (which I support).  I'd say a legit and fair inclusion and again EofP is flawed so it needs a redress, not necessarily the doves.
• Kaeris and the Eternal Flame, I'd say the Eternal Flame is a shade under powered, perhaps a little slow but this maybe that Kaeris is a little diffuse as a master and crew, she does a lot of things but multiple other Arcanist masters do any and maybe all of them better; so maybe the problem is Kaeris lacks focus and the Eternal Flame cannot support anything in particular because of this... not certain and am willing to be schooled by superior Kaeris players.  Of course EofP still sucks.
• Sandeep and Banasuvva comes next, here is a real niche case (somewhat like Lynch and Huggie) that the master is intimately connected to the totem, it is in part an extension of their core actions and powers, its a summoned only model and I think within Sandeep's core mechanic is will placed and priced.  A separate argument exists on whether Sandeep and crew are a little to good, flexible and wide ranging and the default competitive selection for Arcanists (this in a faction including the strong Colette, Ramos and Marcus crews at least); this is not a discussion for here and may simply be about the masters newness contributing to their success.

So to these are the base review, less one.  I'd say only one totem clearly needs review (subject to a more comprehensive review of the masters power curve itself) and that is the generic and generally under utilised Essence of Power, I'd opinion that it needs at least a marginal cuddle (in the form of speed and durability mainly - so perhaps incorporeal rule..??) to achieve anything like the generic niche inclusion it should have by design goal.

Now the missing one, this is the only master specific totem which I think 100% demands review in Arcanists:

• Ironsides and Mouse this totem is expensive, vulnerable and does minimal work in contributing to Ironsides play, while the actions Mouse performs in theory support Irons they are difficult to pull off, provide limited return and generally Mouse is too easily neutralised.  The actions Mouse performs and the concept and theme are also barely in conjunction, for a supposed spy master for the Arcanists it simply does not inspire theme.  In short too expensive, too bland, too under powered and along with the EofP's noted flaws this means Ironsides rarely sees an Arcanist totem.

I think for Arcanists both Essence of Power and Mouse need a game revisit otherwise I think that everything else is at least workable.  However I will say that Kaeris and her totem may need some slight adjustment in the future as I think the fire angel is falling behind the Arcanist power curve and losing any really competitive niche within the faction; her strongest trait now in the Arcanist tournament and general game play scene is likely that she is so rare that her crew is a surprise and folks struggle to initially grasp her play.

Finally I will mention two other totems, the generic Outcasts pair which can feature in Arcanist lists; balancing this totem however requires very careful consideration because (a) they can feature in any masters lists so wide ranging OP potential and (b) without the merc tax they must still be balanced in Outcast lists:

• Student of Conflict, the Viks sister, is powerful but with merc tax is simply to over costed to really see much time in any Arcanist lists.  Also note that SofC is a quasi Viks totem but like the non-twins (+ additional mage sister) is really a true mercenary and will even wander outside the sisterhood.  Tellingly in my experience SofC in a Viks list is thought to be sub-optimal and the Child is preferred.  So SofC is perhaps in need of a slight buff.
• Malifaux Child, is cheap and a flexible inclusion for any master, actually probably the points cost and play ideal for poor Ironsides, but is still an expensive piece (with merc tax) and rarely sees Arcanist table time in my experience.

For Arcanists the Outcast generics are very rarely seen on the table, and ultimately I don't mind because given how game breaking they could be if buffed across wide ranging lists I'd prefer to see them rarely in Arcanists then all the time in certain single or multi faction and crew builds.

 

[Freman]

Student of Conflict, either make her a minion and significant, or drop her cost to 3 stones. Perhaps make her (2) Hand out Fast into (1) Hand out Fast, but only once per turn so she can actually move into range of someone who needs it.

[Bengt]

I think both the Wendigo and the Emberling are way undercosted when compared to other models as they are significant minions for 3 SS. But then we come to whether Totems should be compared to other models, some are pretty obviously designed as an integral part of the Master (e.g. Hollow Waifs) while other just seem like a random model with perhaps some light synergy with their required Master and thus will have to be competitive with other choices.

Personally I think Totems in general should be costed like other models (special cases like Hollow Waifs could be excepted).

[-Loki-]

18 hours ago, Da Git said:

• The Gorar - I think the From Malifaux We Are Born needs to be a little bit more flexible, maybe anywhere more then 6" from your deployment zone?  That would still hopefully make it more interactive, so you can't hide it.  Otherwise, make it "When a Friendly model within 6" of this model is killed or sacrificed..."  More restrictive, but doesn't put it in the enemy's sights as much or as terrain dependent.  I also wouldn't mind seeing his 2 attacks go up to Ca5.

For "From Malifaux We Are Born", possibly anywhere on the centerline? That would tie in similarly with Vanessas 'Harness Leyline' skill as well, since magic is important in Malifaux, and Leylines are always a part of magic. Lets you hide it better than being in the middle of the scrum.

[mojopin]

I think Karina is the only totem I've never phathomed including, in resser faction. For 5ss there are plenty of superior models. 

Graveyard spirit shows up about 80% of my games (I face agressive gameplay) 

[Nikodemus]

After a 3½ month Misaki stint, Shang is fine! Reliable heals, card draw, activation, fast throwaway model to deny VP by engagement. Sh4 is enough for what you're doing with him.

[rubbe]

I think totems are good as they are. no, not good, balanced.

As a nvb player i have to say just one thing: poltergeist is pure power! Minion, may do interact, incorporeal, give negative to wp in 2", walk 6... for 5 points is more than fair!