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Why play Ten Thunders


whodares

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Tooth's challenge is a push directly towards at range 8" and the neverborn player cannot companion so either you can see and thus charge Tooth and maybe the Rougarou before they do this trick or tooth can't do his/her thing to you and still have Rougs hit you after the push.

There are a lot of TT stuff with ch + ml reach of over 8" so "initiaive" in the non game-term sense should be yours. You can also set up something to stand at the edge of terrain so that the closest push vector stops on the corner but the charge can be done a little to the side so it ends in ml range. That means the wastrel should survive since even if you mess up the wk duel and take terrain damage there's a very high chance of still being alive. 

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2 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

Why is your Sh6 sniper with a double positive to hit and single positive to damage having trouble hitting a Df6 model? Queen's Champion does nothing while on Titania. TT has plenty of ways to hand out focus and positives mean your opponent having positives isn't an issue and you can very easily get rid of the hazardous terrain markers. Also you seem to be ignoring terrain as well if that single 8" push is able to get your models in for killing.

And are you forgetting that Izamu has armor? He shouldn't be down 6 wounds from just Tooth's activation, especially when he can heal himself. We also have the best way to mess with Titania's scheme markers, because she's dropping them all near models, just use Mighty Gust on a model and move 3 of the scheme markers up to 8" back. A condition to only be able to attack Titania isn't an issue when you have 3 models with condition removal.

Also you're talking about anything with Ml/Sh5 is apparently useless(they aren'tt), but the majority of your opponent's crew is Df 5. The only model with higher than Df5 is the Emissary and the Gorar. So for the most part you'll be having a stat advantage while attacking. And if you're really worried about putting a model into her crew, grab Shenlong with LRS, Equality and Misdirection. He can literally just hang out in your opponents crew the rest of the game forcing your opponent to attack his own models.

Sniper has sh5, not sh6. He only has sh6 when he uses focus when being within 3" of Sensei Yu. That happens in first turn and after that never again. Due to soft cover, his attack has a single + flip which means you need to get lucky to do better than min damage, which is 2.

Regarding Izamu's damage: Tooth can put 3 attacks on him (3 damage) into Rougarou who pounces into him (another 3 wounds). Izamu takes at least 1 wound from going through the terrain unless you spend a 10+ card on not taking that. If the Neverborn player gets Red Joker on any of those damage actions, he cuts down Izamu before he can even activate.

My shenlong actually did have Low River Style, but he only got close enough once to use it. Then he got pushed into the hazardous terrain 3" every single turn ticking up damage onto him. Eventually he had to start healing his own wounds. By the time that happened, most of my crew was dead. The sniper did indeed try valiantly, but shooting into engagements just isn't his thing. Got the worst luck and had to target my own model who was engaged with 3 others...

47 minutes ago, Tokapondora said:

Why do we have to look out for all this terrain that doesn't seem to hinder your opponent's perfect positioning one bit? Clearly they have plenty of space to manoeuvre without a hitch but somehow we are stopped dead in our tracks when we want to push or shoot or charge or do anything. Ultimately only you know your terrain and how to play around it, but those are decisions you will have to make playing the game. Just as your advances can be thwarted by terrain, so can theirs. Your crew is much more mobile so you should be able to get into a much stronger position quickly. If you find them being able to set everything up perfectly while you can only watch in horror as their insidious trap opens its maws before you, you might want to have a look at the board setup. 

In your game, your list was too weak. If the Emissary is your only big gun you know you've messed up crew assembling. Well surprise, your opponent can now tear its way through your crew without fear of retribution. Shenlong is indeed a force multiplier. If your crew consists of an Emissary and a sniper for offense, there is fuckall to multiply. It was neither sturdy nor scary enough, and it sounds like you've encountered similar set-ups before so you knew what you could expect.

In your mind, everything your opponent does will work 100% and everything you do will fail. This will make you see any action you take as an autoloss, make you afraid to take actions, and as a result you'll get whittled away as your opponent carries out as he pleases. I could counter everything you've described with my pitch involving absolute perfect board position, a godly hand, plus flips out of the ass and the stars and planets aligning, but that's not what's going to happen. 

 

Ultimately if you really feel TT isn't for you, by all means switch, but it isn't suddenly going to solve the problems you have. Those you can only solve through listening to advice and moreso trying to envision how that advice would work. People aren't suggesting you random stuff, they suggest it for a reason. Try seeing how it could work, rather than trying to see how it would fail. Because as it is now it feels you're trying to find vindication of your sense of helplessness, rather than genuinely look for advice.

 

My apologies if this comes across as harsh, but I've been dealing with players in similar positions and the core what it boils down to is that they will not listen. They'll gladly complain and sulk and call it unfair, but any notion of advice people give get brushed aside with an It's no use and It's just these models. It's become this insurmountable wall for them and they can't see past how it snagged them the previous times. 

Next time, try asking your opponent why he felt it was so easy. Ask him what things he felt were lacking from your side of the table and what allowed him to carry on so uninterrupted. Listen to people, and don't be afraid to actually try new things.

Please look at the terrain waldgeist creates. Please look at the terrain the Emissary creates.

Emissary terrain just plops down on your part of the map and you can't do anything against it. Well, you can hit your own model in it with a blast attack. Great plan, right? Wasting so many resources jus to get rid of a 0 action that comes back next turn.

 

I have included a drawing of the map we were playing on. In the center there were 2 houses, the left side is a climbable hill 2" height. Some crates and severe terrain. The triangle are dense forests. 

I was on the top side of the map. My opponent placed his waldgeist next to the building and plopped his cover terrain. Then my opponent put his Emissary in cover of that new terrain and put down a hazardous terrain marker on the alleyway leading to the center. This blocked the entire alleyway for me unless I was prepared to take all the hazardous terrain checks against him.

A bit later he put down a second piece of the hazardous terrain and yes, they stack. Going through the alleyway from turn 2 would require 2 high cards or a possibility of 2x 1/4/5 damage. he placed the first marker a bit more to my building while the second was placed to make sure I had to take a really long way around the building. Such a long way that I would have to give up Extraction points while he could move the Extraction marker as he pleased.

 

Now that I have included the map, you might understand the dilemma a bit more.

 

Map4.jpg

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14 minutes ago, whodares said:

Sniper has sh5, not sh6. He only has sh6 when he uses focus when being within 3" of Sensei Yu. That happens in first turn and after that never again. Due to soft cover, his attack has a single + flip which means you need to get lucky to do better than min damage, which is 2.

Regarding Izamu's damage: Tooth can put 3 attacks on him (3 damage) into Rougarou who pounces into him (another 3 wounds). Izamu takes at least 1 wound from going through the terrain unless you spend a 10+ card on not taking that. If the Neverborn player gets Red Joker on any of those damage actions, he cuts down Izamu before he can even activate.

My shenlong actually did have Low River Style, but he only got close enough once to use it. Then he got pushed into the hazardous terrain 3" every single turn ticking up damage onto him. Eventually he had to start healing his own wounds. By the time that happened, most of my crew was dead. The sniper did indeed try valiantly, but shooting into engagements just isn't his thing. Got the worst luck and had to target my own model who was engaged with 3 others...

He should be able to get it off two focused shots turns one and two all at Sh6. Sensei Yu is walk 7, he can very easily hand a little back, and Shenlong's aura is big enough that he can be in position at the top of turn 2 to give the sniper (0) focus and be in position to get to the center of the board. And why are you only on min damage? You have focus shooting into a bunch of Df 5 models, you should very easily be able to get off severe multiple times. Also the Emissary can only place down 1 a turn at range 6, so he's either over-extending on turn one or not placing two down until turn 3. This makes him a prime target to be picked off by the sniper because at worst he can put you on a single negative flip. for damage.

Then hold Izamu slightly back and push him into position after Tooth moves, or go for the Rougarou after it gets in position to pounce on the Tooth's target. You have access to 19" of pushing on Izamu, or whatever beater you go with. Use it.

How was Shenlong getting pushed? You're at Df 6 with two upgrades you can use to boost your Df. LRS gives you defensive like candy and HRS allows you to flat out boost your Df above what your opponent can flip or cheat to. And again, LRS is only 1 part of the equation. Misdirection is the real key here, because it allows you to shunt off the attacks that hit you onto your opponent's models unless they discard. Have a problem with Hungry land markers still? Well Shenlong can get 2 focused attacks off a turn to get rid of them and still have a third AP to attack with. Or he can heal up a model 6-12 wds a turn, along with himself healing another 2 at the end of each turn because of Equality.

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1 minute ago, santaclaws01 said:

He should be able to get it off two focused shots turns one and two all at Sh6. Sensei Yu is walk 7, he can very easily hand a little back, and Shenlong's aura is big enough that he can be in position at the top of turn 2 to give the sniper (0) focus and be in position to get to the center of the board. And why are you only on min damage? You have focus shooting into a bunch of Df 5 models, you should very easily be able to get off severe multiple times.

 

I explained the situation in a previous post. First he lets the walgeist make the cover and then he stands behind it. This means you have 1 + to attack instead of 2. 

3 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

Also the Emissary can only place down 1 a turn at range 6, so he's either over-extending on turn one or not placing two down until turn 3. This makes him a prime target to be picked off by the sniper because at worst he can put you on a single negative flip. for damage.

Due to the wording "within range and LoS", the actual area he can place it maximum is 6" + 49mm keeping 1mm of the marker within range and LoS. This is a whole lot more than just 6". Unless I've been duped by him and we've played it wrong? That could also be a case and could remove a LOT of the frustration of said marker.

8 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

Then hold Izamu slightly back and push him into position after Tooth moves, or go for the Rougarou after it gets in position to pounce on the Tooth's target. You have access to 19" of pushing on Izamu, or whatever beater you go with. Use it.

If you station Izamu inside of his own charge range to the models, he will be able to be lured himself. If you wait until Tooth moves, your opponent will already have lured another model and messed you up or used Titania to bring something to her. Kind of hard to charge when you're engaged.

 

10 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

How was Shenlong getting pushed? You're at Df 6 with two upgrades you can use to boost your Df. LRS gives you defensive like candy and HRS allows you to flat out boost your Df above what your opponent can flip or cheat to. And again, LRS is only 1 part of the equation. Misdirection is the real key here, because it allows you to shunt off the attacks that hit you onto your opponent's models unless they discard. Have a problem with Hungry land markers still? Well Shenlong can get 2 focused attacks off a turn to get rid of them and still have a third AP to attack with. Or he can heal up a model 6-12 wds a turn, along with himself healing another 2 at the end of each turn because of Equality.

Teddy ripped Shenlong apart (Rip ml7) and Teddy can push-follow him automatically. Defensive is indeed what kept shenlong alive for a bit longer, but even he can only hold out so long against a dedicated teddy hellbent on killing him. Misdirection only works if there is another model closeby and that just wasn't the case. Just shenlong and Teddy duking it out in hazardous terrain. Teddy has regeneration 2, so he was at a slight advantage there. Now I will admit I had some bad luck and rolled a severe on the terrain damage, which made sure Shenlong could never try and do anything back and was already throwing everything just staying alive.

Also don't forget that defensive gained from Low River Style only lasts until end of turn and not start of next activation. Ever seen a Teddy flurry a shenlong without defensive after he wins initiative flip? It's not pretty for Shenlong.

You can only have 1 Equality so it's either on Izamu or on Shenlong. If only we could have it on both :(

I had a choice: swap style on shenlong ,get rid of 1 hungry land marker and then lose master and Emissary OR try to delay the inevitable and go for healing flips. I chose the latter and it didn't work out. I can argue that at that point in time the game was already lost. Turn 2 my opponent could move away the Extraction marker 3" and thereby forever keep it out of my range. Due to my stubborn healing , I managed to get 2 points from it and 3 point from Frame for Murder, but my opponent got 9 points. He could have gotten 10, but actually forgot to cash in 1 point.

 

I'd argue that this time the map and scheme pool were just not in my favor. Having the hazardous terrain in the single chokepoint leading to the Extraction marker is BS especially with the amount of terrain that marker covers. It covers 8 inch of death zone. Since you have to walk fully through it with your base and all, even the smaller models need to have a move of 9 inch and in Izamu's case 10" if they want to skip the duel.

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The Terrain markers created by the Mysterious Emissary impact the opponents crew, as well, with the exception of the Emissary. They require a 4:crow or higher and the range in which they can be placed is not by any stretch of the imagination "far" at 6". They cannot be placed touching another model, Marker, or terrain. There can never be more then 2 of them, either. Make sure you aren't letting these damage flips be cheated as Hazardous damage is not cheatable (Rules Manual page 74). 

The Waldgeist looses his trees if he is moved or pushed: Airburst that sucker. Preferably into  the Hazardous terrain. No :ranged? No Sh? No problem! Cameo and cover won't help Mr Waldy here and he won't take kindly to making that Walk duel. Sure it's probably only 1 damage but that's 1 damage and and out of position Waldgesit which is usually a dead Waldgesit. 

Airburst Thorn and the Rog away from eachother. Airburst Airburst Airburst. As primarily a Neverborn player I can safely say I both envy and loathe Airburst when I see it. I also really want to reiterate@Ludvig's points about straight pushes, terrain, and Tooth's Push. 

Sensai Yu should be able to use those markers to your advantage just as much as your opponent can, if not better, with Airburst's Range of 10". 

Can you highlight were the Tooth/Rog and Wald/Emissary set up their 1-2 punches on the map for turns 1,2, and 3, please? Or help me understand where they are getting situated? 

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If there is a chokepoint you can try to get a scheme marker there, should be doable quite early game. Now the hungry hippo -erm- land marker can't be placed. It would be fun to see the board, some of this sounds like it had to do with you creating a really unbalanced board before the game. Blocking off too much of the access to the strategy with impassable terrain can be very unenjoyable. What if you had faced Raspy or Sonnia who can straight up deny you a part of the board for the entire game?!

 

Funny thing is I think a lot of neverborn players are considering Titania to be subpar for the faction.

 

Airbursting his models into the dangerous terrain sounds fun. You could try that next time.

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42 minutes ago, necroon said:

The Terrain markers created by the Mysterious Emissary impact the opponents crew, as well, with the exception of the Emissary. They require a 4:crow or higher and the range in which they can be placed is not by any stretch of the imagination "far" at 6". They cannot be placed touching another model, Marker, or terrain. There can never be more then 2 of them, either. Make sure you aren't letting these damage flips be cheated as Hazardous damage is not cheatable (Rules Manual page 74). 

The Waldgeist looses his trees if he is moved or pushed: Airburst that sucker. Preferably into  the Hazardous terrain. No :ranged? No Sh? No problem! Cameo and cover won't help Mr Waldy here and he won't take kindly to making that Walk duel. Sure it's probably only 1 damage but that's 1 damage and and out of position Waldgesit which is usually a dead Waldgesit. 

Airburst Thorn and the Rog away from eachother. Airburst Airburst Airburst. As primarily a Neverborn player I can safely say I both envy and loathe Airburst when I see it. I also really want to reiterate@Ludvig's points about straight pushes, terrain, and Tooth's Push. 

Sensai Yu should be able to use those markers to your advantage just as much as your opponent can, if not better, with Airburst's Range of 10". 

Can you highlight were the Tooth/Rog and Wald/Emissary set up their 1-2 punches on the map for turns 1,2, and 3, please? Or help me understand where they are getting situated? 

Ask and I shall comply. Please forgive my shoddy Paint skills.

My map highlights end of turn 1 with the second marker placed for reference.

The top-left H is the first Hazardous terrain marker placed down. The second was placed the turn afterwards.

Ti = Titania

R = Rougarou

To = Tooth

E = Emissary

WG = Waldgeist

The 2 empty circles are the terrain the WG placed down

The crates (square with X in them) are height 2 blocking, climbable.

 

I started on the top-right of the map to maximize the amount of area my sniper could cover. My opponent started more in the center to avoid my sniper as much as possible. Because I had to deploy first, my opponent could counter my deployment.

9 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

If there is a chokepoint you can try to get a scheme marker there, should be doable quite early game. Now the hungry hippo -erm- land marker can't be placed. it would be fun to see the board, some of this sounds like it had to do with you creating a really unbalanced board before the game. Blocking off too much of the access to the strategy with impassable terrain isn't very good. What if you had faced Raspy or Sonnia who can straight up deny you a part of the board for the entire game?!

We have a rotation of 6 different maps which were inspired by tournament maps we've seen passing in the battle reports. Before each match (friendly) we roll a die and setup the terrain accordingly. This map would have been a good map if it hadn't been for Extraction. Every type of map has it upsides and downsides and you have to live with them. Factions were declared before maps were rolled so no unfair advantage on that point.

Map4 _Models.jpg

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Oh, thanks! Paint is a higher form of art ;) 

You declare factions after you see the map in normal games but if you are practicing for a tournament this seems like a really smart system.

 

Nothing in your opponent's list has a range of more than 8" and all those models look like they're well into their side of the zone so you should have been able to hold it from your side. Did you walk the two brothers up there and protect markers while healing and pushing with Shenlong and shooting with your sniper? Something like that is what I would have done probably. The rougarou hits hard but shouldn't be too fond of that sniper barrage. Considering a crew that bunched up and the possibility of sending in a fast, recalled training:d Shenlong with that fire blast attack to just go apeshit on them and you should be looking at an awful lot of damage. Alternatively you could use the Emissary to give his and the sniper's ordinary attacks blasts on all focused damages. 

 

Claim jump should have been easily done on one of the flanks.

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27 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

Oh, thanks! Paint is a higher form of art ;) 

You declare factions after you see the map in normal games but if you are practicing for a tournament this seems like a really smart system.

 

Nothing in your opponent's list has a range of more than 8" and all those models look like they're well into their side of the zone so you should have been able to hold it from your side. Did you walk the two brothers up there and protect markers while healing and pushing with Shenlong and shooting with your sniper? Something like that is what I would have done probably. The rougarou hits hard but shouldn't be too fond of that sniper barrage. Considering a crew that bunched up and the possibility of sending in a fast, recalled training:d Shenlong with that fire blast attack to just go apeshit on them and you should be looking at an awful lot of damage. Alternatively you could use the Emissary to give his and the sniper's ordinary attacks blasts on all focused damages. 

 

Claim jump should have been easily done on one of the flanks.

It's not really done for that. I only have Ten Thunders where my opponent has several factions,including Lady J, Zoraida and Rasputina with December acolytes. The acolytes are imo on a whole different level compared to our sniper, but that's a discussion for another time.

 

My paint skills weren't great as I mentioned. The full 6" of Extraction zone that I could stand in were all covered by the Hazardous Terrain. If I wanted points, I had to go inside of the damage zone. Since I didn't have an Izamu, all my models would take full damage. Going inside the zone would open me up to the place effect from Titania and then the Tooth + Rougarou combo that I mentioned.

My starting hand was not great, only 2 high cards. I used the LRM-Emissary combo, but they also gave me lower-end cards oround 6-ish. Because I tried going for the Sniper 2x sh6, I bruned through those high cards but got really bad luck on the damage flips. I wonder which goddess I angered for all my bad luck.

I should have gone for claim jump, but thought my crew could hold out long enough for me to just Mighty Gust a brother with 3 tokens at the end of the game. Unfortunately said brother died in turn 3 when Titania placed him next to her.

After turn 2 he always had the advantage of having more models in the Extraction zone, so he started moving it down 3" every turn. This forced me to bring my crew over the hazardous terrain marker and into range of the chokepoint which now had both markers and the Tooth-Rougarou killing combo with the Emissary providing backup. I tired providing cover fire with my Emissary, but he failed the walk duel and flipped a moderate for 4 damage. I cheated the flip for shenlong so he wouldn't take damage. Now that I think about it, only Yu managed to go through the Hazardous terrain without cheating. Needing a 9+ (wk5) is fairly brutal.

 

For the SHenlong blast to actually do damage, you need a severe hit. Else the damage drops back down to 1. It's something I used to kill off his Emissary, but by that time the game was already over.

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52 minutes ago, whodares said:

My paint skills weren't great as I mentioned. The full 6" of Extraction zone that I could stand in were all covered by the Hazardous Terrain. If I wanted points, I had to go inside of the damage zone. Since I didn't have an Izamu, all my models would take full damage. Going inside the zone would open me up to the place effect from Titania and then the Tooth + Rougarou combo that I mentioned.

 

After turn 2 he always had the advantage of having more models in the Extraction zone, so he started moving it down 3" every turn. This forced me to bring my crew over the hazardous terrain marker and into range of the chokepoint which now had both markers and the Tooth-Rougarou killing combo with the Emissary providing backup. I tired providing cover fire with my Emissary, but he failed the walk duel and flipped a moderate for 4 damage. I cheated the flip for shenlong so he wouldn't take damage. Now that I think about it, only Yu managed to go through the Hazardous terrain without cheating. Needing a 9+ (wk5) is fairly brutal.

 

Hi guys, I was the neverborn opponent. Just some small corrections: the buildings were open and there was access from there into the extraction zone, which you also did as you put your LRM there. 

Small correction: there was no emissary providing backup after turn 2 cause you killed him quite quickly :)

 

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Just now, Joachim said:

Hi guys, I was the neverborn opponent. Just some small corrections: the buildings were open and there was access from there into the extraction zone, which you also did as you put your LRM there. 

Small correction: there was no emissary providing backup after turn 2 cause you killed him quite quickly :)

 

Well now that you're here; "why he felt it was so easy. Ask him what things he felt were lacking from your side of the table and what allowed him to carry on so uninterrupted."

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1. I must admit that the map in combination with the strat and scheme pool were perfect for titania so I picked her (I also own zoraida).

2. I fairly quickly killed a TTB (unfortunately with Titania, which was a mistake as frame for murder was in the pool) so one flank was gone and the opponent never moved up the other flank which allowed me to set up in the center of the board without worrying about any of the flanks anymore. 

3. There wasn't really a huge damage threat from any one model such as a fast pushed izamu or lone swordsman. Everything in my army had df5 (teddy has df3), so that really sucks against ten thunders and all of their focus, but the lack of a big threatening beater made me feel a bit safer.

4. You stayed back with everything, allowing me to set up my hazardous terrain while only losing my emissary at the top of turn 3, get rougarou and tooth into position, and let teddy and titania move up to the left flank and already threaten the only safe place for you to get into the extraction zone. Also making sure that models are partially behind terrain prevents them from being pushed which is something that was mentioned a couple of times.

I think I would have used all the crazy movement 10thunders has to move into and around the upper building and push through the severe terrain on the other flank or push something like an izamu past one hazardous terrain marker. But move up pieces and apply pressure as it was very easy for me to control the flow of the game after turn 1. In this game with this crew I think you would have needed to uses blasts from focus with sniper, emissary and shenlong. Then you can easily remove the gorar and start taking down my models.

 

In summary I think ten thunders have various very solid models, as well as some great upgrades. One of the most annoying things to go up against is their crazy amount of pushes in combo with fast which can make any beater extremely dangerous. They also have tons of focus, effectively denying cover. Against df5 neverborn models thats scary to go up against.

I hope these comments help.

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Firstly, everyone here is keen to defend the TT, which is fine, people do that. But it bears noting that we are not a strong faction. I don't believe is it controversial to say with this year's schemes we are a mid placed faction at best. Last year we were a bit stronger, and even then no one was saying we were the best faction, or even the top three. We certainly are not the worst, but if you go back and scan over tournament results, you usually wont see a disproportionate number of TT players clustered towards the top end. If faction power is important to you, you may indeed be playing the wrong thing. It is also worth noting, however, that Neverborn are also not top of the pile. There is a big gap between the powerful Dreamer (even with the cuddle) and the rest of their leaders.

That having been said, TT are solid, and can win games. One problem with the faction is that we specialise in movement and support, and that requires a lot more experience to win games than many other factions. I know I lost a lot of TT games when I started playing, because I couldn't work out what to do with all the possibilities of a TT turn, and I didn’t have enough Malifaux spacial awareness to know where my guys should go.

On to some specifics. Firstly, if the hazardous terrain is annoying you, bring a crew that doesn’t care. Huggy, Ama No Zako, Yasunori, Yin, Chiaki and Tengu all ignore terrain, so bring some of them.

Secondly, if lures are a problem, we are literally the best faction to counter it. We have anti-move tech coming out the wazoo. We have heaps of Laugh Off as well as Braced on Fuhatsu. Strongest is Sidir with By Your Side, since he has Laugh off, which makes the first lure in a big area a waste. Finally, if you get pushed out of position, we always have a model to bring that model back just as easily. If all that fails, you can just merc in Anna Lovelace, although here that seems overkill! The Smoke Grenade upgrade is usually good anti-lure tech, but here you have mostly short ranged pulls, so it is less effective in this case.

Thirdly, I often find the best counter to a lure play is a lure. If you split up the lurer's/pouncers, they are much less effective, and either give up a model or waste lures bringing it back. We have Beckoners (w/Lynch) and Oirans (conditionally) at 18”. Performs are a steal at 6ss and have 12”. After that you have as many pushes as you brought – Lust, Sensei Yu etc, to bring them closer, or just shoot them down. Against that crew the WP 5 Rougarou seems the optimal target. Get him away from terrain, away from lures for pounce, and focus him down (he has only HtK for defence).

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Yeah, i'm not saying ten thunders is one of the best factions, middle of the pack seems right. 

I disagree that they don't have some strong models, and combined with all the support models they can make any solid model shine.

Also, I wouldn't say neverborn just has great minions, or is minion focussed. They have some great enforcers and henchman as well off course. Titania and the crew and playstyle I played just focussed around rougarou/tooth combo and support from the emissary to control the map and give them +-flips.

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9 hours ago, Joachim said:

1. I must admit that the map in combination with the strat and scheme pool were perfect for titania so I picked her (I also own zoraida).

2. I fairly quickly killed a TTB (unfortunately with Titania, which was a mistake as frame for murder was in the pool) so one flank was gone and the opponent never moved up the other flank which allowed me to set up in the center of the board without worrying about any of the flanks anymore. 

3. There wasn't really a huge damage threat from any one model such as a fast pushed izamu or lone swordsman. Everything in my army had df5 (teddy has df3), so that really sucks against ten thunders and all of their focus, but the lack of a big threatening beater made me feel a bit safer.

4. You stayed back with everything, allowing me to set up my hazardous terrain while only losing my emissary at the top of turn 3, get rougarou and tooth into position, and let teddy and titania move up to the left flank and already threaten the only safe place for you to get into the extraction zone. Also making sure that models are partially behind terrain prevents them from being pushed which is something that was mentioned a couple of times.

I think I would have used all the crazy movement 10thunders has to move into and around the upper building and push through the severe terrain on the other flank or push something like an izamu past one hazardous terrain marker. But move up pieces and apply pressure as it was very easy for me to control the flow of the game after turn 1. In this game with this crew I think you would have needed to uses blasts from focus with sniper, emissary and shenlong. Then you can easily remove the gorar and start taking down my models.

 

In summary I think ten thunders have various very solid models, as well as some great upgrades. One of the most annoying things to go up against is their crazy amount of pushes in combo with fast which can make any beater extremely dangerous. They also have tons of focus, effectively denying cover. Against df5 neverborn models thats scary to go up against.

I hope these comments help.

1. Can't argue with that

2. Turn 2 he died and you managed you pull something else close as well with your 8" place. Flanking means giving up Extraction points, while you get to place the marker 3".

3. That was a mistake on my part, your emissary had def6. Some of them were in hard cover, most in soft cover.

4. You placed down the first hazardous terrain before I could have  reasonably pushed myself beyond it. If I pushed myself that far up that early in the turn (activation 1-2-3), you would have 8" placed that model with Titania and then Lured it with Tooth. I don't plan on throwing away a big model turn 1.

 

Can't use blasts from sniper if you have an average hand. I needed to use the LRM combo to actually get a card that was 12+ so I could guarantee a hit was going through. Also don't forget I need to get a moderate damage for the blast to actually activate.

Tons of focus is only within 6" of Shenlong. Even then he requires that model to sacrifice it's own 0 action. Most Ten Thunders models have good 0 actions, so this is not always a boon. For the sniper, yeah sure. Lone swordsman? Hell no! Izamu in the middle of an opposing crew? Hell no! Sensei Yu? Arguable whether or not you want to spend a 6 to try and get the second condition from SHenlong's 0 or not. If you need to switch stance, this isn't an option.

 

6 hours ago, anencephalous said:

Firstly, everyone here is keen to defend the TT, which is fine, people do that. But it bears noting that we are not a strong faction. I don't believe is it controversial to say with this year's schemes we are a mid placed faction at best. Last year we were a bit stronger, and even then no one was saying we were the best faction, or even the top three. We certainly are not the worst, but if you go back and scan over tournament results, you usually wont see a disproportionate number of TT players clustered towards the top end. If faction power is important to you, you may indeed be playing the wrong thing. It is also worth noting, however, that Neverborn are also not top of the pile. There is a big gap between the powerful Dreamer (even with the cuddle) and the rest of their leaders.

That having been said, TT are solid, and can win games. One problem with the faction is that we specialise in movement and support, and that requires a lot more experience to win games than many other factions. I know I lost a lot of TT games when I started playing, because I couldn't work out what to do with all the possibilities of a TT turn, and I didn’t have enough Malifaux spacial awareness to know where my guys should go.

On to some specifics. Firstly, if the hazardous terrain is annoying you, bring a crew that doesn’t care. Huggy, Ama No Zako, Yasunori, Yin, Chiaki and Tengu all ignore terrain, so bring some of them.

Secondly, if lures are a problem, we are literally the best faction to counter it. We have anti-move tech coming out the wazoo. We have heaps of Laugh Off as well as Braced on Fuhatsu. Strongest is Sidir with By Your Side, since he has Laugh off, which makes the first lure in a big area a waste. Finally, if you get pushed out of position, we always have a model to bring that model back just as easily. If all that fails, you can just merc in Anna Lovelace, although here that seems overkill! The Smoke Grenade upgrade is usually good anti-lure tech, but here you have mostly short ranged pulls, so it is less effective in this case.

Thirdly, I often find the best counter to a lure play is a lure. If you split up the lurer's/pouncers, they are much less effective, and either give up a model or waste lures bringing it back. We have Beckoners (w/Lynch) and Oirans (conditionally) at 18”. Performs are a steal at 6ss and have 12”. After that you have as many pushes as you brought – Lust, Sensei Yu etc, to bring them closer, or just shoot them down. Against that crew the WP 5 Rougarou seems the optimal target. Get him away from terrain, away from lures for pounce, and focus him down (he has only HtK for defence).

I've never gone into a gam thinking "I can do this better than the opposing faction". Movement tricks are fun, but suck when movement is being punished (ex hazardous terrain, Extraction/Guard the Stash).

I'm not denying I have won games. The games I won were because the oppoent was just trying out models or I got a full counter setup (shenlong with emissary/LRM vs Zoraida focussed on conditions).

The Hazardous Terrain is an 8" circle. If you stop in the circle, you have to take the duel. Since models only ignore terrain while moving, they have to take the effects after ending a walk/push in it.

I will not deny fighting lure with lure/push makes sense. The thing is I first have to go through a hazardous terrain with 1/4/5 damage. Rougarou has 5 def, but 9 wounds and HtK. Since our min damage in faction is low, we will need a lot of attacks to get him down.

 

What this thread has provided as solutions so far:

1. Place Izamu up front and go for extreme alpha strike.  Be prepared to lose Izamu the second turn while the opponent sacrifices Gorar to get his minion back.

2. Go through the Hazardous Terrain and try to lure/push your enemy out of position, preferable also in the Terrain. While this helps, it requires me to bring several models also into the Terrain. He can sacrifice the Gorar to get the model back AT THE CENTER OF THE MAP. I might get points for Extraction but he has more models there and gets to place it 3" further away from me.

3. Place Izamu in the Terrain and blast him. I like how spending 2 complete activations in order to remove a 0 action sounds like a fair trade of power.

 

ANything I missed?

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3 hours ago, -Loki- said:

I wouldn't go as far as sub par but she's a niche master rather than a generalist master, so you'll see her less often.

In a faction with 3 generalist masters, that kinda makes her sub-par.  

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2 hours ago, whodares said:

Can't use blasts from sniper if you have an average hand. I needed to use the LRM combo to actually get a card that was 12+ so I could guarantee a hit was going through. Also don't forget I need to get a moderate damage for the blast to actually activate.

 

I will not deny fighting lure with lure/push makes sense. The thing is I first have to go through a hazardous terrain with 1/4/5 damage. Rougarou has 5 def, but 9 wounds and HtK. Since our min damage in faction is low, we will need a lot of attacks to get him down.

 

- Tbh: having 9 cards and/or stoning for cards gives you an above average hand by definition. If you had some bad hands even for a couple of games than that is no flaw in tactic or models being bad, that is just luck of the draw. And in that case this entire discussion is also mute. 

- Why would you only get minimum damage versus a df5 model with no other defensive tricks? you're minimum even with that or higher and you have access to a lot of focus, and the sniper has built in plus flips. With focussed attacks you will get a lot of straight flips for damage. Saying that you'll only hit weak damage is a very worst case scenario way of thinking and also very unrealistic.

 

In conclusion: Knowing you personally and having played a lot of games I think you need to be more positive and focus less on random effects such as card draw and not compare as was said earlier your worst case scenario versus the stars aligning and always hitting with everything for the opponent. With that way of thinking every faction in the game will be the worst. Let's just have some fun next game ;)

 

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1 hour ago, Tokapondora said:

The dozen or so other things said in this thread.

Yes, the Sidir trick which came down to thesame thing as Izamu. I grouped them together.

Anything else? Checked the thread, all came down to thesame. Flank and lose points and just take the damage and alpha him through mid.

48 minutes ago, Joachim said:

- Tbh: having 9 cards and/or stoning for cards gives you an above average hand by definition. If you had some bad hands even for a couple of games than that is no flaw in tactic or models being bad, that is just luck of the draw. And in that case this entire discussion is also mute. 

- Why would you only get minimum damage versus a df5 model with no other defensive tricks? you're minimum even with that or higher and you have access to a lot of focus, and the sniper has built in plus flips. With focussed attacks you will get a lot of straight flips for damage. Saying that you'll only hit weak damage is a very worst case scenario way of thinking and also very unrealistic.

 

In conclusion: Knowing you personally and having played a lot of games I think you need to be more positive and focus less on random effects such as card draw and not compare as was said earlier your worst case scenario versus the stars aligning and always hitting with everything for the opponent. With that way of thinking every faction in the game will be the worst. Let's just have some fun next game ;)

 

You know the shitty luck I had with my hands so far. Second turn I stoned for cards, used the LRM/Emissary trick AND STILL only got 2 high cards.

SNiper hitting minimum is something you saw happen as well. Get straight flip for damage, get a minimum damage. Looks at hand and either have to cheat 1 of the 2 high cards I have for severe or go with the min damage. Cheating out 1/2 high cards you have leaves you open for the rest of the game. You give your opponent free reign over you and he can do as he pleases as long as he has a single high card in hand. You should also be able to verify that as that's what happened in the last 3-4 games we played. Neverborn have so many high card burning effects that you just HAVE to let some through if you don't want to give over complete control.

 

You've seen my card draw in the game. Lost turn 4 and 5 on games where I had twice your models due to cards (Bettari got 4 chances to kill something and still didn't get a single good flip so she died).

But that's just my card luck in general -.-

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Alright.
Turn 1 - if your opponent brings out his Emissary in the beginning of the turn and plops down his Marker in the center, you then have your entire turn to plan out your attack on him. He will be around the center line and as that diagram shows, around the center point. He can't go back there until turn two. You then get to shoot him twice with a sniper (where you focus for Sh6+:+fate:+fate on attack and :+fate on damage) which should average at around 2-4 damage, up to 6-10 if you're willing to cheat in. Or he cheats in constantly, reducing his hand while you with you numerous :+fate flips and Emissary should have a 4-5 card advantage over him.

Then, weakened and in a very suboptimal position, you can hurl something big and scary in his face - yes through the horrible horrible markers - and finish him off. Ideal would be Izamu, but most of TT's beaters would do. At this point luring will be hard since everything from your opponent walking upfield will be funneled in that tiny gap and it would require two walks, through the narrow gap around his Emissary and any models that may have walked up+the tooth's 0 to lure the beater in (if you left the beater close enough to the centerline rather than 9" away from the Emissary as you should), leaving you to first hit the tooth once, then immediately activate and promptly crush whatever it can get to. If at this point the Gorar is magically also within 6" of the center, you hit the Gorar. You should be able to leave Recalled Training since this beater should not be anywhere in sight until your 8th activation, which may well be after your opponent has done his last activation. You can then start the next turn, pop RT and kill something else. Whether you bother ever removing that hungry hippo marker or not is very much up to you.

If your opponent doesn't bring out the Emissary at the start you can easily fill the space where the first marker would go. With that you've forced an opening into the center bubble and can proceed to shoot and ultimately charge or drag in enemies that try to come within 8", since that is about their maximum range.

Hell, you can "From the Shadow" your Sniper in that narrow gap and block your opponent from even getting there in the first place. Will cost you your Sniper (though he might catch a Gorar in the face), will also let you dump your entire party onto the center board before your opponent gets there.

Sidir would've let you deal fair amounts of slow/damage or drain a lot of cards since they're all clustered up and deliver a final focussed Sh7/8 shot at a prime target to boot, all from the safe distance of 12", which again his 8" reach can't quite get to. 

You could've had a fast Lone Swordsman discard 2 of your 9 cards and maybe a Recalled Training to make absolutely sure you'd get rid of the Emissary and possibly more.

If you knew your opponent had a habit of running Fae you could've gone for Kang, who hands out free :+fate flips to attack and damage to all undead, which seem to compose the key part of his crew. 

Yasunori would essentially be an Izamu who doesn't need to even get in anyone's threat range by any stretch of the imagination, AND be immune to the markers. 

And-so-on and-so-on.

Ultimately, if you find the abilities these models bring so troublesome that you can't play around them, kill them. That is what it will boil down to. And there's various ways to do that. All of them involve putting yourself out there, however. Which is only fair, since by using these abilities your opponent is putting himself out there as wel. With Df5 in a lot of cases, to boot. And somehow he is doing great.

Now I'm sure you can list the numerous ways this might all go wrong because a Sh 6 against a Df 6 will naturally fail or do min damage no matter how much focus you've got coming out of your ass, and your opponent with that very last activation will always have the exact right model to walk 15" and 8" lure your last model and then somehow your model will be unable to do anything in its activation because reasons so you might as well not bother - but maybe, just maybe, you can try actually considering how this might work. Not how it will without a shadow of a doubt fail. How it could work. Maybe you on your streak of horrible losses and bad results versus the thread full of people who seem to do quite well have a slightly different, if not warped, perspective on this. Maybe all the wins of the people here aren't just a series of flukes and maybe there actually is something to what the people here say. 

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51 minutes ago, Tokapondora said:

Alright.
Turn 1 - if your opponent brings out his Emissary in the beginning of the turn and plops down his Marker in the center, you then have your entire turn to plan out your attack on him. He will be around the center line and as that diagram shows, around the center point. He can't go back there until turn two. You then get to shoot him twice with a sniper (where you focus for Sh6+:+fate:+fate on attack and :+fate on damage) which should average at around 2-4 damage, up to 6-10 if you're willing to cheat in. Or he cheats in constantly, reducing his hand while you with you numerous :+fate flips and Emissary should have a 4-5 card advantage over him

Tried that, got 2x min damage. Thank my bad card luck for that.

 

51 minutes ago, Tokapondora said:

Then, weakened and in a very suboptimal position, you can hurl something big and scary in his face - yes through the horrible horrible markers - and finish him off. Ideal would be Izamu, but most of TT's beaters would do. At this point luring will be hard since everything from your opponent walking upfield will be funneled in that tiny gap and it would require two walks, through the narrow gap around his Emissary and any models that may have walked up+the tooth's 0 to lure the beater in (if you left the beater close enough to the centerline rather than 9" away from the Emissary as you should), leaving you to first hit the tooth once, then immediately activate and promptly crush whatever it can get to. If at this point the Gorar is magically also within 6" of the center, you hit the Gorar. You should be able to leave Recalled Training since this beater should not be anywhere in sight until your 8th activation, which may well be after your opponent has done his last activation. You can then start the next turn, pop RT and kill something else. Whether you bother ever removing that hungry hippo marker or not is very much up to you.

Don't forget about his Titania. She is a couple of inches closes with the possibility to place and debuff the target, unless he targets Titania.

You can only hit the Gorar if you have vision on him. As he can stand behind both the Emissary and the building, I would like to know how you would actually hit him? Sure Izamu is 3" with 3" range. doesn't help you when Gorar is 4" away from you or hiding behind the Emissary.

You also expect to win the Initiative flip for turn 2. If you lose that flip, you lose your biggest threat in your crew. That's a pretty big gamble in my opinion.

Not sure how you're going to remove the Hazardous Terrain. It can only be removed by hitting an enemy model with blasts and then overlapping the blast with the marker. You need to place at least a chain blast to reach the marker. I might be missing something here, so I hope you can solve this riddle for me.

 

51 minutes ago, Tokapondora said:

If your opponent doesn't bring out the Emissary at the start you can easily fill the space where the first marker would go. With that you've forced an opening into the center bubble and can proceed to shoot and ultimately charge or drag in enemies that try to come within 8", since that is about their maximum range.

Titania's place made the threat range around 10", which would make it longer than Izamu's charge threat range. Would need a Yasunori for that.

 

51 minutes ago, Tokapondora said:

Hell, you can "From the Shadow" your Sniper in that narrow gap and block your opponent from even getting there in the first place. Will cost you your Sniper (though he might catch a Gorar in the face), will also let you dump your entire party onto the center board before your opponent gets there.

Could have done that. I would then play 43ss vs 50ss game. He would then do thesame setup a bit further away. That would be beneficiial for me, I'll admit that. At that point in time it just becomes a slapping contest to see who breaks first. Given that they can break 2 models per turn if Teddy is in range, I don't feel confident that we can win such a punching match.

 

51 minutes ago, Tokapondora said:

Sidir would've let you deal fair amounts of slow/damage or drain a lot of cards since they're all clustered up and deliver a final focussed Sh7/8 shot at a prime target to boot, all from the safe distance of 12", which again his 8" reach can't quite get to. 

I don't have Sidir, but I do feel he is a nice model. I'm just wondering howmany models you are bringing to the table now? Yu(PD) + Izamu (RT) + Sidir is already 32 stones. Add in a peasant for the 34 stones so you only have 16 stones left. Sure hope you aren't bringing the Emissary. Else you will have less than 9 models and lose the activation control you speak of. Good thing we have so many great models at around 5ss that aren't the TTB and your crew doesn't need any soulstone cache to operate.

 

51 minutes ago, Tokapondora said:

You could've had a fast Lone Swordsman discard 2 of your 9 cards and maybe a Recalled Training to make absolutely sure you'd get rid of the Emissary and possibly more.

If your swordsman can do the sunrise on the first turn, you will not kill anything. He will just do the Titania place and you will be forced to attack Titania. 5 Attacks in a single turn COULD kill her, but you better have the right hand to back that up!

51 minutes ago, Tokapondora said:

If you knew your opponent had a habit of running Fae you could've gone for Kang, who hands out free :+fate flips to attack and damage to all undead, which seem to compose the key part of his crew. 

Instead of properly playing you suggest that I use pre-existing knowledge to screw over the opponent in order to sneak out a win. Wow .... just wow ...

51 minutes ago, Tokapondora said:

Yasunori would essentially be an Izamu who doesn't need to even get in anyone's threat range by any stretch of the imagination, AND be immune to the markers. 

And-so-on and-so-on.

Yasunori does indeed have a 12" threat range. He could stand outside of the marker, outside the range of the opponent and go crazy inthere. So again: howmany models are you planning on bringing in these crews? Your plan requires activation advantage and you're taking all these big beatstick models or big support models.

51 minutes ago, Tokapondora said:

Ultimately, if you find the abilities these models bring so troublesome that you can't play around them, kill them. That is what it will boil down to. And there's various ways to do that. All of them involve putting yourself out there, however. Which is only fair, since by using these abilities your opponent is putting himself out there as wel. With Df5 in a lot of cases, to boot. And somehow he is doing great.

Killing them is indeed key. You have to kill the Emissary before he can place down the second marker. If you don't, the rest of your crew will be in hell in trying to score points for the Strategy.

By focussing Emissary, you let his Teddy and Tooth roam free doing whatever they want.

You also have to cover more distance than the opponent as he can safely stay on his side of the board with a threat range of the entire Extraction area while you have to pull everything together to even get close to him and cheat a high card OR take 1/4/5 damage (1/2/3 in case of Izamu).

51 minutes ago, Tokapondora said:

Now I'm sure you can list the numerous ways this might all go wrong because a Sh 6 against a Df 6 will naturally fail or do min damage no matter how much focus you've got coming out of your ass, and your opponent with that very last activation will always have the exact right model to walk 15" and 8" lure your last model and then somehow your model will be unable to do anything in its activation because reasons so you might as well not bother - but maybe, just maybe, you can try actually considering how this might work. Not how it will without a shadow of a doubt fail. How it could work. Maybe you on your streak of horrible losses and bad results versus the thread full of people who seem to do quite well have a slightly different, if not warped, perspective on this. Maybe all the wins of the people here aren't just a series of flukes and maybe there actually is something to what the people here say. 

Howmany high cards are you planning on having in your hand? IF everything goes perfect, then your strategy WILL work. I'm not denying that. HOWEVER you have to be realistic. You don't have 9 ghigh cards in your hand. You will have max 3 high cards in hand after using the LRM/Emissary combo. Are you still sure you want to cheat those damage flips from sniper for that?

Your plan expects your opponent to herpderp do whatever without seeing what you are doing. The opponent also reacts to the situation. The alpha strike is very easily spotted in 10 Thunders, let's not kid ourselves there. He'll just stay back a bit more or place his models a bit differently to handle the alpha.

 

In doing an alpha strike, you sacrifice the model being thrusted forward. You kill the Emissary, that's great! You just traded your beater for their Emissary while most of their damage is still intact. You've only placed a slight hindrance in the Neverborn plan while you lose the biggest stick you had lying around. THIS is where I have a problem with the strategy that you proposed. Am I maybe not seeing how your model will survive an alpha up to 16" away from the closest healer? If you can show me the benefit of this, perhaps I'll see why this strategy could work.

 

Also, you just explained my first bullet of my summary. If this was your reaction to the "dozens of other options", it did not work.

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If you have bad luck with flips and draws you need to go through more of your deck. I had a lot of issues with cards until I started playing lists where more or less every action was at a positive. Just flipping more cards will let you win duels eventually. Nothin works if you flip really bad and your opponent flips good, it's like rolling all ones in a game of 40k (although at least here you will at some point start to flip better if you go through your entire pile). That doesn't represent faction power.

 

Flanking doesn't give up strategy points. You need two models to score the strat so you could reasonably use two models in the middle, maybe three for safety and flank with the rest of your crew and then move them back in towards the center. If the opponent moves the marker back but you have flankers ready to charge into where they moved it you have successfully avoided the dangerous markers, scored your own schemes and you haven't given up strat points at all. If you group into the middle you give the opponent the option of doing the same thing. For that to be a good deal for you need to have a bubble crew á la Mei Feng or something. Otherwise it is probably a bad idea.

Alphaing something turn 1 or 2 isn't just giving away points. If you do it right you have scared the opponent into making suboptimal moves. With Yu you have a fast, unactivated model which means you can place it out of LoS but have a move before you charge/shoot so you can threaten a huge area with the opponent not having the option of hitting you first (unless exposing their master). If they move up to get in a good position you should have a choice of which model you want to kill/damage severely or you have controlled their moves so they make suboptimal plays putting you in a better position.

As your opponent said earlier: If you are at sh 6 and focused against a df 5 model you have the averages on your side. Yes a godly hand for them and shit for you can screw you over but with positives to the attack you should at least be forcing them to cheat first. Cheating in a moderate card for damage if you hit weak is usually almost as good as severe so keep those severes to guarantee hits and misses and cheat in 6-8s for damage if you have the bad luck of flipping weak on your focused shots.

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@ Whodares: For your comment on Kang, bringing models that can hurt enemy models is not being sneaky it is being smart.  Bring the right crew to help counter what your opponent is not being sneaky but properly playing as a big part of this game is crew composition.  People are not going to think you are being win at cost gamer if you bring Kang to match against Titinaia.

Also if you can give Shenlong a break and play someone else for a while, then come back to him with fresh eyes.  

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