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Uses for Survivors?


Drakespirit

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I want to like these guys, I really do.  I have fielded them a couple times and tried to use them as scheme-runners, but I feel like they are missing something (armor?) to make them really good.

 

Has anyone found a niche with these guys?  I love the models and the fluff surrounding them and want to use them more.

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With armor and hard to kill they can be surprisingly tanky (unless your opponent ignores armor).

Uusally what I do with them is have 2 survivors and a slop hauler good down a flank (or an iron skeeter and survivor). The slop hauler can do some damage to support and keep them topped up over hard to kill.

The trick imo is you don't use reckless every turn, but keep it for when you really need that third action (you burn reckless too much and they will die pretty easily).

 

They kind of work well with Mah as when they change to their ranged attack mode their attack stat is still Mi so Mah can buff that. Their other 0 that prevents charges and lowers walk can also act as a pretty good pseudo AOE slow.

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They look awesome on a shelf :D just joking, I tried them a couple of times and more than scheme runners (just take a Bayou, they're way better) I used them as cheap beaters (their damage track is quite good). Yet, I think they're quite a waste of ss, since I found them lackluster all the time I used them :| d'uno what wyrd had in mind with them. Their zero to deny charge is great tho.

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They're tanky in a faction that doesn't really "do" tanky, especially if you're going the more traditional "get fast things done fast" route that the gremlins are so good at.  You might get some good performance out of them if you pair them with Sparks, but at that point you're building a crew because bringing sparks *just* to babysit the survivors is kind of a waste.

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Give them Fast an Iron Skeeter and run them up the board. You can spend all 4 AP on 'ranged' attacks with their wonky damage track on a big juicy target if you wait for it to activate first, and the speed of the Iron Skeeters means you'll be able to get around cover etc (if you can't, you can always charge instead). Strange attack vectors & lots of attacks with high moderate/severe damage means they can make up for costing one-and-two-thirds of a Bayou Gremlin.

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On 4/26/2017 at 5:12 PM, Drakespirit said:

I want to like these guys, I really do.  I have fielded them a couple times and tried to use them as scheme-runners, but I feel like they are missing something (armor?) to make them really good.

 

Has anyone found a niche with these guys?  I love the models and the fluff surrounding them and want to use them more.

I agree that they feel like they are missing something and think I have put my finger on it.

As you mention the natural inclination is to wind them up (give them fast on top of Reckless for 4 AP) with Sparks (only one a turn) and send them off to complete an objective. The issue being that they tend to be a one shot option for this in a faction that has many other competing options that also contribute more to the crew or are cheaper to run (Iron Skeeters, Piglets, Bayou Gremlins being the best examples). While they do have some good defensive tech (Hard to Kill, Armor, Df 5, long engagement range and the Gremlin characteristic) they really aren't that great at tar-piting, particularly at a cost of 5 SS each and against either the "big baddies" or high defense models you want to slow down.

The best solution I can come up with would be for the designers to include an upgrade for Sparks in the next book that allows him to create Survivors from other gremlins. In this way Sparks gains an expanded role in the crew (he is also a bit underwhelming IMO) by creating and sending wave after wave of Survivors to slow the opponents advance. In this way the Survivors become a prolonged tar pit threat rather than a just a speed bump.

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On 5/1/2017 at 0:11 PM, Drakespirit said:

So youre thinking give sparks the ability to create survivors out of corpse markers or out of severely damaged gremlins?  

 

I think that would go a long way in making them more competitive

I could see it going both ways honestly. Corpse markers would be interesting in that it would provide the faction another method (aside from the Taxidermists who aren't very good at it) of getting rid of them (and we do tend to create so many of them).

I tend to lean toward using damaged gremlins though as I find that is the more balanced summoning mechanism.

Perhaps they could give it to us both ways making one function like Asami's Flicker mechanic (i.e. summoned from Corpse Marker having a condition which counts down) and the other allowing summoning of Survivors without the countdown condition. Hell I would even go for an "ability" (decent aura size please) which allows killed Gremlins to "linger" for a turn (think of Reva's stupid Shield Bearers though with a time limit or if you are familiar with last edition the old Slow to Die ability) and the other requiring an action (please make it 1 AP, Sparks has enough going on in the 0 AP range that struggles to consistently function).

I think this would go a very long way toward making both of them a bit more palatable over other options in the faction. I want to like both of these guys but getting work out of them (and the Mei Feng's Mechanized Porkchop) is a chore over other options.

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On 5/1/2017 at 4:09 PM, Omenbringer said:

The best solution I can come up with would be for the designers to include an upgrade for Sparks in the next book that allows him to create Survivors from other gremlins. In this way Sparks gains an expanded role in the crew (he is also a bit underwhelming IMO) by creating and sending wave after wave of Survivors to slow the opponents advance. In this way the Survivors become a prolonged tar pit threat rather than a just a speed bump.

This is awesome idea.

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How about a ticking condition with a blast explosion at the end? If the Survivor is killed before self-destructing the bomb is defused. Will give them an interesting mechanic as must-destroy summons and set them apart from the flickering TT...

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9 minutes ago, Omenbringer said:

@tmod While I like the idea my concern would be that they might then negate the Stuffed Piglets in a lot of ways.

I wouldn't be worried about that. In the price of one Survivor you get 2.5 Stuffed Piglet so Stuff Piglets would always be a stronger choice if you need more activations and annoying models on the table and Survivors would be interesting summon option for Sparks. IMO both would fit nicely in many crews.

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I think they're at the appropriate cost.  The issue isn't necessarily the model, or what they do.  It's that as a faction, we have a lot of good models in the lower cost range that people are used to which perform a function very similar to what survivors would do.  Some models bring more.

A good comparison is Lightning Bugs.  Same cost, similar roles.  But the bugs have some potential healing and scheme running, plus a (0) action that can turn things at the end of a turn for the better, whereas Survivors have hard to kill.

I know it isn't true of everybody, but I've noticed that people are a little hesitant to try a new model if it's replacing something they've been running for a long time.  If it's similar enough, then in order to justify replacing an old model it has to do something better.  Otherwise I'm better off sticking with the old model that I already know how to run.

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I'd say cost wise they're probably kinda like Freikorpsmenn: too good for 4 stones but not quite strong enough for 5. I think you could make a strong argument for a hypothetical M3e to add even more points to the size of a game (like the step from 35 to 50 from 1st to 2nd) and add some granularity with Survivors (and Gators while we're at it) at maybe 1 stone cheaper than the other really strong 5 cost models. Although that's assuming nothing else changed between the editions.

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I would throw my hat into the appropriately costed if  they were summonable.

As is they are too expensive to use them as tarpits (likely only lasting a single turn) or scheme runners (really does require other models to do well enough to justify over other options which again makes them less optimal choices when our cheaper options can perform a similar function (and assist the crew in other ways).

I would argue that a lot of the issue is with Sparks and not simply the Survivors. He needs to do more for the crew than simple hand out Fast to a single construct per activation.

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7 hours ago, edopersichetti said:

Crazy how 1SS makes such a huge difference. At 4SS they would be great, at 5SS they are just meh...and this happens for several other models in the game. Overall the guys at Wyrd are doing a bloody good job, but yes sometimes it is hard to come out with a balanced model...

It's rather a big bump in price percentage-wise. Being 25% more expensive, 5SS is a pretty big change from 4SS. The difference is far less the higher in cost you go which makes the Merc tax a bit weird in that the more expensive the Merc, the less it stings.

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16 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

It's rather a big bump in price percentage-wise. Being 25% more expensive, 5SS is a pretty big change from 4SS. The difference is far less the higher in cost you go which makes the Merc tax a bit weird in that the more expensive the Merc, the less it stings.

Totally agree - when it's 12 or 13 SS...oh well, it's an expensive model anyway (Killjoy I'm looking at you!) but at a lower point cost...with the exception of the Performer, for which most of the times I gladly pay 6SS, sometimes it's really hard to justify that extra stone. I'm coming to terms with it, for example, since I just got some Crossroads 7 and trying to fit a couple of them in some lists as mercs but at 9SS they are really hard to justify...

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