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Nathan Caroland Nathan Caroland
LunaticTuna

New player. Convince me to play outcast over Neverborn.

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Hey everyone,

I'm really excited to start this awesome looking game. 

 

I have a dilemma I haven't been able to overcome after a couple of weeks of browsing malifaux content, and I finally decided to ask you guys for help so I can start painting, playing and growing this community! :)

 

I have played wargames for 15+ years and have come to the conclusion that the right way to pick a faction is to follow the rule of cool. However in the last years I have very much enjoyed competitive gaming and it has become an important second point to make that aspect of a game interesting. Not by picking the OP guys, but by making sure what looks cool to me is not completely gimped and more importantly not one-dimensional.

 

My favorite play style is sneakiness and variety. I love to try something new every week, and I live for "hehehe gotcha!" moments.

 

So my first point : rule of cool/aesthetics 

The coolest looking master/starter box is the Viktorias. I want to paint them and play them. They are a 10, and the next best thing is maybe an 8.

But...

...nothing else in the Outcasts looks too amazing... 5s and 6s... and the stuff I like like the desolation engine doesn't seem to get many recommendations and is attached to abominations which are not my thing at all...

 

Things that I would give an 8 in other factions : Kaeris, Ulix (or rather his pigs), Lilith, Pandora and the dreamer.... you see my dilemma? I want the Viktorias, but I can see myself collecting most of the Neverborn.

 

My second point : competitive play / variety & shenanegains

I understand setting up a game and recruiting your troops works and think it's awesome. But if all I want to play in Outcasts is the Viktorias, their crew and Vanessa.... also every topic I see on the subject basically recommends swapping out the Ronin... I don't mind swapping models out according to objectives, but I'd hate painting models that I think look cool and then knowing that in pretty much any situation another model would do a better job. :(

 

I'm worried I'll get bored, and also that from the get go the Viktorias might not offer much in the sneaky/tricky play style that appeals to me. (Whereas people seem to agree Lilith can pull out a new trick everyday).

 

Are there people that stick to master?

Are you enjoying it? Is this viable if you aspire to some tournament play?

Are the Viktorias suited to this?

Tell me again, how cool the Viktorias are? How interesting and diverse are they on the table top?

Is my impression that there is pretty much always a better choice than the Ronin wrong?

Why?

Can I change up my playstyle or are the Vikis pretty much a  trick pony sling shot machine?

If yes, do I have to change out the whole rest of the crew just to mimic a play style another master would do much better?

 

I had more questions, but that is what I can remember right now.

 

Any other comments you might have are welcome.

 

I want to play the Vikis and my first rule would dictate that I do, I just have this worry that I will regret it.

 

I don't really have a $ budget, but a time budget, and I spend a lot of it on painting my models to the best of my ability. And I don't want to sink my precious free time into something I will regret. :(

 

Thanks for your help.

 

I'll post something similar to the Neverborn forum to be fair.

 

The winner gets all the glory and pictures of my progress once I start painting. :D

 

I'm excited to meet some of you on a 3'x3' board. :)

 

 

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Freman   

Malifaux is a little different to other wargames in that you play a faction rather than a master. Though it's possible for all masters to do all schemes and strategies, it is likely that one will prefer one style of scheme/strat over another. The Viktorias for example excel in doing massive damage, and since you effectively get two models for the price of one they can also be handy for holding quarters or scheme marker dropping. However they are not particularly tough, being the epitome of glass cannons in Malifaux, so schemes that require your master to stay alive may not be easy for them.

Ronin are decent, but they are six stones which makes them mid cost models for Outcasts (we're rather heavily weighted to the 9-10 stone range, possibly because a lot of our models are mercenaries). We prefer four stone models like Void Wretches or Winged Plague for minor duties like that. Cheaper models also allow us to bump up our activation count as ideally you want to equal or exceed the number of activations your opponent has available in order to prevent them being able to act without interruption from you.

I think that Neverborn have some better theming options than Outcasts, for example Lilith leading a full Nephilim crew (while not the most powerful around) gives you a mix of scheme runners (terror tots) beaters (Nekima and Mature Nephilim) and mid range models (Black Blood Shaman, Young Nephilim). That doesn't mean that that is the strongest crew available to Lilith, but it covers all the bases and remains themed.

Outcasts, perhaps unfortunately, are a bit of a grab bag. We're basically a faction defined by not really fitting in with the other factions. Hamelin has his rats, Von Schill his Freikorps, Leveticus his arcane abominations, Parker his bandits, Tara the creatures of the great void, Misaki her Lost Blossom minions, Jack Daw his madmen, and the Viktorias their mercenaries. We can mix models (as can any faction) but sometimes it's a bit harder to play a theme and cover all the bases.

If the Viktorias really grab you, but the other masters and models don't do much for you, while Neverborn offers a variety of models you like, then it might be better to play Neverborn. I can't imagine anything more frustrating than investing time and money in the game then finding out you don't really like playing the faction you chose.

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Virtus   

I recommend picking up the Viks.

When I was looking to get into miniature wargaming for the first time through 40k, a recommendation I got a lot was similar to your Rule of Cool: "Pick what you like the look of, because you're the one who will be assembling and painting it. It doesn't matter how good/bad they are. If you don't like it, you won't finish it." You've been wargaming for over 15 years, so you're probably going to finish whatever crews you get, but I still want to emphasize something: it doesn't matter how good/bad they are. Yes, certain Masters are better at certain strategies and schemes than others, but it's not that black and white. You have to consider things such as how the terrain is set up, what the deployment zones are, what might your opponent bring and how can you counter it, etc. Having multiple options to choose from doesn't hurt, but it's not mandatory. If you read up some battle reports you can find that there are indeed players who have won tournaments with relatively fixed lists. It has a lot to do with knowing what your crew can do, and realizing what your opponent can do.

As for me, I have three Outcast Masters but 9/10 times I pick up Hamelin because he was my first Master and I haven't gotten tired of him, and I feel most comfortable using him because I've had more practice with him. Eventually I hope to pick up Parker Barrows and his crew for myself, then main just Hamelin and Parker to tournaments.

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Trample   

Yeah, I would pick up the Viks too. Malifaux is supposed to be a game where you play a faction and not a master, but I am much more inclined to play a master and not a faction. I wind up bouncing around factions way too much because of that weakness but I really think you have to like the master and its play style to really enjoy the game. Some masters will suit your style well and some won't work as well with your proclivities. The Viks are usually a very aggressive high damage crew, but the don't have to be. They can actually be pretty flexible. They work well with a gunline as counter attackers for example, so I think you can spend a lot of time experimenting with them before you get bored. You can try something new every week. 

I think the Ronin are great models and I wouldn't hesitate you use them with the Viks (or with a lot of other crews).

Neverborn have a lot of great models but I just don't seem to click with them as well. They are sneakier than the Viks. Lilith does a huge variety of sneaky-fun things she can do but your opponent will know you're going to be sneaky with Lilith. He'll just be trying to figure out which sneaky trick you'll pull. With the Viktorias when you're being sneaky you'll actually fool your opponent.

Both are fun. I hope you enjoy what you pick!  

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-Loki-   

Just to offer a third option - there's no reason you can't grab the Viktorias, build their crew out, and still main Neverborn. While there's benefits to playing the faction rather than the master, namely a much, much larger pool of models, the game doesn't require you to play it that way. It's very easy to play to a smaller pool of models which you vary based on schemes and strategies.

Personally, I main Neverborn, and have 5 separate masters for them. I love the horror aspect of them. I also have a lot of Gremlins (which happened entirely by accident). However, I also have Jack Daw. The horror element of his speaks to me in the same way the Neverborn do. So for him, I focused on getting the different Tormented models. I'll get other non-Tormented models as I play him and figure out what else I'd like to do. I've also got Colette, because I bought The Dark Carnival and the Nightmare Coryphee. I also have started Perdita, as I've been collecting the LE models for her crew.

I have no intention of expanding Arcanists, Guild or Outcasts out of those masters for the foreseeable future, but the optional variety is always nice.

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I'm going to go against the flow here and recommend against solo playing the Viktorias as the 10s, and instead recommend you go with the rating 7-8 models you like in Neverborn.

As someone else said, in Malifaux you play a faction, not a Master - with rare exceptions, most Masters are designed to be good at some things and bad at others, to encourage variety of play. Eventually, the people you play against will know what you have when you belly up to a table and always takes what hard counters you, which will lead to lopsided games that frustrate you even if you win - right now at my local there's a Tara fanboy who's going through the same thing, and Tara is more versatile as a sole Master than the Viks are.

I love the Viks too. I discounted my commission rate for a friend just to get the chance to paint them. But to have a solid model pool for playing into a game you'll want them with something super durable or good at scheming, like Tara or Von Schill, with an eclectic mix of models that don't adhere to any theme:

1) Librarian

2) Freikorps Trapper

3) Johan

4) Void Wretches

5) Hans

6) Convict Gunslingers

7) Hodgepodge Effigy

 

And Parker Burrows' box is looking pretty good too.

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Man... yesterday I was about ready to click yes on my online order for vikies, Vanessa and the outcast cards...

 

But yes, the lack of theme is a little of putting to me.

There isn't even a rag tag crew of mercenaries.

There are samurai chics, with void monsters and German military dudes and psychotic ghosts and...

 

How am I supposed to even base this stuff...

 

How usefully are the Victorias and Vanessa as mercenaris? In a Neverborn army?

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Mrbedlam   

You can't use the Viks or Vanessa as merc options I don't think. Ronin are pretty boss though. They can't be charged and ignore armor. 

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Also a little side question.

I always see people talking about Von Schill stuff or Hamlin to complement the Viktorias.

 

But what about Tara? I do like the Void beast, along with the desolation engine they are my favorite "monsters" in outcasts.

 

As always second master later on would she provide help in schemes where the Vikings are bad?

 

Is there synergy in their crews, and are there other outcasts units that I could get that benefit both? 

Which ones?

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Seadhna   

Personal opinion: don't get Von Schill, he's the most boring master in the game.

Theme-wise, Outcasts fall into two broad categories:

Mercenaries and bandits - Viks, Schill, Parker, Misaki and thematic models

Unique magical stuff that are too cool fit into Arcanists/Ressers - that would be Tara, JD, Leveticus and Hamelin

 

For first group, any steampunk/wild wild west theme would go.

For the second group, all are too unique to have a unified theme (maybe Levi and JD for Fate shenanigans, Tara and Hamelin for Tyranny).

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crimzzen   

Honestly if you want to play competitive sneaky type lists, I would choose Neverborn.

 

Outcasts satisfies that condition with Levi and Vickies to a lesser degree (only because they have insane threat ranges).

Neverborn has Lilith, Pandora and to a lesser degree the Obey masters.

 

Outcasts are primarily damage dealers with no real tricks imo (other than levi who does both).  I play Levi and that's about the extent of outcasts for me. 

 

Also while mercs are neat and can sometimes fill a missing role in a list, more often than not you can solve the problem within the faction and save yourself a couple of points.  At least in my experience.

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Wolfpact   

I love my outlaws and bandits... but if you like sneaky and flexible, yeah, you're best off picking up the Viks and Vanessa as a one-off and going Neverborn.

I have (now!) seven - actually, I just realized 8 -Masters across four (five) factions - Lilith, Pandora, Lynch, Titania, Rasputina, Parker Barrows, and Nicodem / Amelia Bathory, and my arrived-today Titania box had Doc Dufresne in it so I'll be buying McMourning's box in the future. Of those Factions, I consider myself a "Neverrectionist" - A Neverborn / Resser player where Faction loyalties are concerned. I'll probablypick up Daw and Tara at some point, but Parker was a gods-send for me because I actually liked a lot of one-off Outcast models more than anyof the Masters until the Old West outlaw arrived to provide a cowboy Master. Rasputina is an even narrower case - the only other Arcanist I have any true interest in is Marcus, and he's not a high priority; both of them are their own sub-factions as well. With the Ressers, I decently like most of them, but its more that Nicodem wants almost the entire Faction and that I really have come to enjoy Nicodem / Amelia.

If you like multiple Masters in a Faction, go with that Faction and ala-carte the Masters you like individually.

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LTH   

I was on same, Viks was what I want for the look, liking the outcast lore, and as I go Gremlins too, they was part of Outcast in past so it's linked.

will try play Viks as a full girl crew, I can add Vanessa, Johanna (Johan alt fig), Hannah, Ama no Zako and will look for the others girls for what I can do.

want play this thematic. I read they was a bit one way, but great minis are great minis ;) 

And make them playable in a different way will be a kind of challenge.

seem lot of people play neverborn, that's maybe a point for you if you don't like have same thing than others.

 

like you I was on Outcast or Neverborn in more than gremlins. and in outcast I'm looking about Leveticus et jack daw too which have a strong thematic for futur.

In neverborn I was looking on Pandora, dreamer, collodi, and Titania,  changeling, dopleanger, effigy (face crew). maybe a day ^^

 

Sound to me have 2 factions is also a nice way, a friend can play one against you, you can have different gameplay.

that's not a problem if you pick a part in outcast and a part in neverborn (except price). you will certainely finish with 3 masters in each.

 

 

just go with what you like the most, if you love also to have tricky, take viks and another master tricky and more versatile in neverborn. easy ;)

 

 

 

 

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DXXXVIII   

Go Neverborn and more than one master if you want to play competitive.
It becomes really frustrating if you only pick one crew for your faction and once u've been to 2 tournaments your known as "the Viks guy" who everyone knows how to counterpick.

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Are you saying Neverborn is the most played faction?

 

Anyhow...Thank you all for your answers. 

 

I think I was able to get a better idea of what is important to me.

 

I will drive by my game store on the way home tomorrow and pick up my first Malifaux boxes.

 

I'll keep it a surprise... You'll get a reveal when I have a crew painted up and post pictures.

 

I'll delivery I promise ;)

 

Also LTH... français? 

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LTH   

LunaticTuna

Yes I'm french ;)

and it seem, neverborn is lot of played here and in uk.

beginner like you, put my order yesterday so will have it... when it come from uk ;p

 

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LoL... lucky guess.

Well I hope we both enjoy this game. I'd ask where you are from, but I currently live in the US so there is little chance of us meeting up for a game.

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farmoar   
On ‎19‎/‎04‎/‎2017 at 11:47 PM, -Loki- said:

Just to offer a third option - there's no reason you can't grab the Viktorias, build their crew out, and still main Neverborn. While there's benefits to playing the faction rather than the master, namely a much, much larger pool of models, the game doesn't require you to play it that way. It's very easy to play to a smaller pool of models which you vary based on schemes and strategies.

Personally, I main Neverborn, and have 5 separate masters for them. I love the horror aspect of them. I also have a lot of Gremlins (which happened entirely by accident). However, I also have Jack Daw. The horror element of his speaks to me in the same way the Neverborn do. So for him, I focused on getting the different Tormented models. I'll get other non-Tormented models as I play him and figure out what else I'd like to do. I've also got Colette, because I bought The Dark Carnival and the Nightmare Coryphee. I also have started Perdita, as I've been collecting the LE models for her crew.

I have no intention of expanding Arcanists, Guild or Outcasts out of those masters for the foreseeable future, but the optional variety is always nice.

I was in the same boat as the OP, and that I found most of the Masters unappealing. I was initially drawn to Viktorias and Marcus (Viktorias because of the look and raw power, Marcus because he can take all the beasts). While I was trying to choose between the 2 of them, I happened across a great Neverborn lot deal that I couldn't turn down. I then had a Viktoria list fall into my lap (crew box, Vanessa and Hans). As much as I love the Neverborn (Pandora and Collodi mostly), I can't wait to surprise one of my regular opponents with a fully painted Viktoria list out of nowhere.

Even then, I have been picking up Mercenaries to pad out my options. It just happens to be a bonus that most of them are Outcasts to start.
 

Play the cool shit, and mess with people's heads. I know Viktoria aren't a great take-on-all-comers Master, but I'll have fun hacking apart their pieces in the meantime.

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Wolfpact   
24 minutes ago, farmoar said:

I was in the same boat as the OP, and that I found most of the Masters unappealing. I was initially drawn to Viktorias and Marcus (Viktorias because of the look and raw power, Marcus because he can take all the beasts). While I was trying to choose between the 2 of them, I happened across a great Neverborn lot deal that I couldn't turn down. I then had a Viktoria list fall into my lap (crew box, Vanessa and Hans). As much as I love the Neverborn (Pandora and Collodi mostly), I can't wait to surprise one of my regular opponents with a fully painted Viktoria list out of nowhere.

Even then, I have been picking up Mercenaries to pad out my options. It just happens to be a bonus that most of them are Outcasts to start.
 

Play the cool shit, and mess with people's heads. I know Viktoria aren't a great take-on-all-comers Master, but I'll have fun hacking apart their pieces in the meantime.

Nothing quite as sweet as a six-stone Johan and an eight-stone Sue, is there?

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LTH   

@LunaticTuna

I'm near Paris. I'm sure you will finish to fall in the Viks and another neverborn box ^^

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My $0.02: Play NB, Arcanists, or Levi. The Vikas are not sneaky at all. They are a one trick pony. It's a good trick, but it will only be sneaky once. After that a prepared opponent will start to setup in such a way as to to minimize model loss  from the slingshot, isolate whomever you sent in, and kill her.  The Viks are great killers, but are made of paper.

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On 4/22/2017 at 1:05 AM, KrazyIvan said:

My $0.02: Play NB, Arcanists, or Levi. The Vikas are not sneaky at all. They are a one trick pony. It's a good trick, but it will only be sneaky once. After that a prepared opponent will start to setup in such a way as to to minimize model loss  from the slingshot, isolate whomever you sent in, and kill her.  The Viks are great killers, but are made of paper.

Sure.  But it's not like you have to slingshot the Viks.  If you always slingshot the Viks, they become one-trick ponies.  And while the slingshot can be good, it's not really the best option a lot of the time.  Playing the Viks back, with the constant threat of leaping halfway across the map to shut things down, is a very valid Vik playstyle and probably a more competitive one.

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