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Trying to convince my friend to play

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Hello all, I'm trying to convince my friend to play malifaux. He wants to play "the good guys" and my first thought was Lady Justice or the guild in general. Would you guys think that fluff wise Lady Justice is the "good guy"character? 

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From what I have been able to tell from the fluff - Lady J, Perdita, Sonnia and Hoffman could all be classified as "The Good Guys" as they seem to be driven mainly by good intentions. 

However I am sure that others could be argued as "The Good Guys" based on the view of their factions. ;)

I would recommend Perdita as a starter for Guild over Lady J, as her crew is more versatile as a standalone :) 

 

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Depending on your POV, each faction is motivated by "good" intentions. Zoraida and the Neverborn want to prevent the destruction of their world from the humans, the Arcanists want fair work conditions in the mines, the Gremlins are insane, but the Guild is the law. From a classical perspective, the Guild are the law makers and the peace keepers. Perdita and the Ortegas are in Latigo to defend humanity from the Nephilim threat. Lady Justice and her Death Marshalls pit themselves against Death itself in the Resurectionists. Sonnia and Samael protect Malifaux from the lawless destruction of the Arcanist, and so on. 

One of the things I like about Malifaux is that no faction is always the good guy and no faction is motivated by unrealistic evil. Rather the story is more 'real' in that each character does their best to do what they believe is right rather than one faction just wanting to destroy, conquer or consume. 

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Ok. I'll try and give him that point of view. My friend is an infinity player of panoceania and isn't into the looks of the neverborn or the gremlins. The neverborn because of the horror esthetic and the gremlins because of the low class "redneck" esthetic.

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Had to quickly research PanOceania and found this blurb on the Infinity website: "If life at the top is your thing, your place is in PanOceania."

That sounds Guild-esque to me. They're the more clean-cut faction with the law on their side. I'm an Arcanist player myself, I like the idea of fighting for the little guys. Going to start dipping into the Neverborn soon though. My gf is getting into the game though and chose the Guild because they're the easiest to see the good-guy aspect of.

I hope I'm making sense, the fluff for Malifaux is incredibly rich and complex. A lot of backstory can be found on the Breachside Broadcast, a podcast done by Wyrd with a lot of the stories in it. I highly recommend it if you or your friend are podcast type people. 

Conveniently located here: https://www.wyrd-games.net/breachside-broadcast

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Oh, yeah. The Kirai story is great.

It's also a great example of how the Guild isn't always the nicest faction and of how a Resurectionist master (Kirai in this case) is relatable even as her spirits flay those that wronged her.

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6 hours ago, Nemesis0284 said:

Had to quickly research PanOceania and found this blurb on the Infinity website: "If life at the top is your thing, your place is in PanOceania."

That sounds Guild-esque to me. They're the more clean-cut faction with the law on their side. I'm an Arcanist player myself, I like the idea of fighting for the little guys. Going to start dipping into the Neverborn soon though. My gf is getting into the game though and chose the Guild because they're the easiest to see the good-guy aspect of.

I hope I'm making sense, the fluff for Malifaux is incredibly rich and complex. A lot of backstory can be found on the Breachside Broadcast, a podcast done by Wyrd with a lot of the stories in it. I highly recommend it if you or your friend are podcast type people. 

Conveniently located here: https://www.wyrd-games.net/breachside-broadcast

Well, Perdita and her lot are Neverborn-slayers and folk heroes to boot. They're about as good as it seems to get - unless you muddy the water with them being on the Guild's dollar.

Reva is pretty good for the Rezzys; standing up for the dignity of the dead and all that, and her box-set-minions are mostly humans too.

The Neverborn are all scum except for Jakob who just wants out.

Ironsides is pretty good in the Arkies, but Ramos is just as conniving and manipulative as any guildboss.

And the Goblins are chaotic neutral.

There's your good guys. Maybe the reporter box. And the new outcasts.

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3 hours ago, OneKelvin said:

The Neverborn are all scum except for Jakob who just wants out.

Odd thing to say...

Our closest equivalent is native Americans; scum is kinda harsh...

Violent, yes, but their overall goals are to protect their world from alien invaders and save both worlds from the Grave Spirit. Sounds like the stuff of heroes to me...

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2 hours ago, tmod said:

Odd thing to say...

Our closest equivalent is native Americans; scum is kinda harsh...

Violent, yes, but their overall goals are to protect their world from alien invaders and save both worlds from the Grave Spirit. Sounds like the stuff of heroes to me...

I have to agree with this. The Neverborn may be violent and a bit manipulative, but in the end they're really just trying to keep the Grave Spirit from wrecking both sides of the Breach while doing their best to keep humans from destroying Malifaux all on their own.

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10 hours ago, tmod said:

Odd thing to say...

Our closest equivalent is native Americans; scum is kinda harsh...

Violent, yes, but their overall goals are to protect their world from alien invaders and save both worlds from the Grave Spirit. Sounds like the stuff of heroes to me...

I guess I can see that. Grave Spirits are no joking matter.

But even the native Americans were total jerks when it pleased them. It wouldn't have been so hard to paint them as the bad guys in the Old West if they didn't scalp people and attack settlers - and many loved guns and technology as much as the next guy. The Aztecs in Mexico were so jerkwaddish with their blood sacrifices and flower wars that the other towns and tribes were all to happy to gang up on them as soon as the Spanish gave them an excuse. I mean seriously, just look at the the attacker's role call for the fall of Tenochtitlan: 1000 or so Spanish adventurer-types and 100,000+ angry natives sick of having their cousins and drinking buddies dragged to the top of pyramids for happy-slashy time because "Uh, duuuude, it like totally make the rain come, duuude."

Being native does not necessarily equate to being good.

Now I'm sure the Neverborn have that relative-evil thing going for them with understandable worries about inter-dimensional colonization and ghost issues, but let's look at the masters for a second and I think it might become a little clearer why I think "Scum" is a good and proper term for them. (Well, that and the fact that after playing so much X-wing in a community where "Scum" is a chummy term of honor between happily-adjusted mercs, pirates, and smugglers, the word may have lost a bit of punch for me.")

Lilith - Century-old demon that watched the rise and fall of the old Malifaux. Observed humans for a time, decided she didn't like them (they are kind of jerkish from time to time), now spends every waking hour devising new ways to wipe them off the continent. As a human this mindset is, troubling.

Pandora - "A force of suffering for all Malfaux" this lovely lady was once the thrall of an evil box, and now goes about trying to drive people insane with the contents because it amuses her.

Dreamer and Chompy - Nothing is as innocent or cruel as a child. Remember Calvin and Hobbes? Remember when Calvin was daydreaming that he'd nuke the school or suck the atmosphere off of the planet? It's like that, but Hobbes is a giant demon, Calvin has no sense of humor, and the people being murdered are real. This Christopher Robin wannabe and his slimy, eye-ridden Pooh are evil in the purest sense of the word, killing for nothing but the fun of it.

Collodi - Once a friendly puppet master, now an insane child killer. I defy you to make a case for this one.

Zoraida - A one-time human who plays cards and collects souls for somethingI'msureistotallywholesomeIdunnomaybeshemakesCAKESwiththem. Yeah. Not a good girl. Fun fact*, her real name is Quidproquo.

Lucius - He's the Governor now no? Works for himself, runs the Guild, is he human? I don't know - but if you don't like the Guild then he's evil, and if you don't like the Neverborn then he's evil.

Jakob - Also a fan of the cards, as mentioned before he's stuck between a demon and a Chinaman, and just wants to get rich and get out before something nasty gets him.

Titania - Tinkerbell's angry cousin, killed some things called the Tyrants back in the day, then got locked in a box for a long time. Now is back to lead her army of fae creatures in singing Disney songs, bringing joy to small children, and murdering all of the humans off her lawn.



You may have noticed, but "kill all the humans" is kind of a deal-breaker for me when it comes to evility. 

*The Fun Facts by no mean resemble canon or reality in any way.

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43 minutes ago, OneKelvin said:

I guess I can see that. Grave Spirits are no joking matter.

But even the native Americans were total jerks when it pleased them. It wouldn't have been so hard to paint them as the bad guys in the Old West if they didn't scalp people and attack settlers - and many loved guns and technology as much as the next guy. The Aztecs in Mexico were so jerkwaddish with their blood sacrifices and flower wars that the other towns and tribes were all to happy to gang up on them as soon as the Spanish gave them an excuse. I mean seriously, just look at the the attacker's role call for the fall of Tenochtitlan: 1000 or so Spanish adventurer-types and 100,000+ angry natives sick of having their cousins and drinking buddies dragged to the top of pyramids for happy-slashy time because "Uh, duuuude, it like totally make the rain come, duuude."

Being native does not necessarily equate to being good.

Now I'm sure the Neverborn have that relative-evil thing going for them with understandable worries about inter-dimensional colonization and ghost issues, but let's look at the masters for a second and I think it might become a little clearer why I think "Scum" is a good and proper term for them. (Well, that and the fact that after playing so much X-wing in a community where "Scum" is a chummy term of honor between happily-adjusted mercs, pirates, and smugglers, the word may have lost a bit of punch for me.")

Lilith - Century-old demon that watched the rise and fall of the old Malifaux. Observed humans for a time, decided she didn't like them (they are kind of jerkish from time to time), now spends every waking hour devising new ways to wipe them off the continent. As a human this mindset is, troubling.

Pandora - "A force of suffering for all Malfaux" this lovely lady was once the thrall of an evil box, and now goes about trying to drive people insane with the contents because it amuses her.

Dreamer and Chompy - Nothing is as innocent or cruel as a child. Remember Calvin and Hobbes? Remember when Calvin was daydreaming that he'd nuke the school or suck the atmosphere off of the planet? It's like that, but Hobbes is a giant demon, Calvin has no sense of humor, and the people being murdered are real. This Christopher Robin wannabe and his slimy, eye-ridden Pooh are evil in the purest sense of the word, killing for nothing but the fun of it.

Collodi - Once a friendly puppet master, now an insane child killer. I defy you to make a case for this one.

Zoraida - A one-time human who plays cards and collects souls for somethingI'msureistotallywholesomeIdunnomaybeshemakesCAKESwiththem. Yeah. Not a good girl. Fun fact*, her real name is Quidproquo.

Lucius - He's the Governor now no? Works for himself, runs the Guild, is he human? I don't know - but if you don't like the Guild then he's evil, and if you don't like the Neverborn then he's evil.

Jakob - Also a fan of the cards, as mentioned before he's stuck between a demon and a Chinaman, and just wants to get rich and get out before something nasty gets him.

Titania - Tinkerbell's angry cousin, killed some things called the Tyrants back in the day, then got locked in a box for a long time. Now is back to lead her army of fae creatures in singing Disney songs, bringing joy to small children, and murdering all of the humans off her lawn.



You may have noticed, but "kill all the humans" is kind of a deal-breaker for me when it comes to evility. 

*The Fun Facts by no mean resemble canon or reality in any way.

"Perdita and her lot are Neverborn-slayers and folk heroes to boot. They're about as good as it seems to get". Yes, good old Perdita! Nothing says goodness like genocide and slavery!

So, "kill all Neverborn" is good and worthy of folk hero status, while "kill all humans" is problematic and evil. Genocide is okay, so long as you don't belong to the group being exterminated? Okay.

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5 minutes ago, Broken Clock said:

"Perdita and her lot are Neverborn-slayers and folk heroes to boot. They're about as good as it seems to get"

So, "kill all Neverborn" is good and worthy of folk hero status, while "kill all humans" is problematic and evil. Genocide is okay, so long as you don't belong to the group being exterminated? Okay.

As we are Human, then its kill the Neverborn or be killed by them, and since we have already established that the Neverborn are inherently evil its an act of good to kill them :)

Thus performing an genocide is the greatest act of goodness one can do - Join Guild today and start acting good!

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The funny thing is that when I started being interested in Malifaux but still didn't know much I assumed that the Guild must be "those bad guys in power who pretend to be good". It was self-evident for me that only villains would bear names like "lady justice". also, exploiting workers and exterminating natives is considered inherently bad in my part of the world. to make it clear: this does not make the neverborn good.

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1 hour ago, Broken Clock said:

"Perdita and her lot are Neverborn-slayers and folk heroes to boot. They're about as good as it seems to get". Yes, good old Perdita! Nothing says goodness like genocide and slavery!

So, "kill all Neverborn" is good and worthy of folk hero status, while "kill all humans" is problematic and evil. Genocide is okay, so long as you don't belong to the group being exterminated? Okay.

Look, I'm not trying to cut into the coolness of the faction. I've always played the Empire in Star Wars games, so I know that there are plenty of opportunities to sympathize with the faction that is mostly seen as the "bad guys".

The thing is that in the Empire there are still people who have the right mindset, but the wrong approach. They think they're fighting for order and justice against guerrillas and terrorists; even though we know the man at the top is a morality-free powerluster.

What we have with the Neverborn isn't that really. It's more a case of Blue-and-Orange morality. The Neverborn don't consider humans to be... well... human. Neverborn seem to see humans as distractions and vermin, and one of their primary motivations in the game is "destroy the human vermin". This makes them bad from the point of view of any human.

The humans could really care less about the Neverborn as creatures. The humans want soulstone for their magics back home, and that is their primary reason for being in Malifaux. The big beef with the Neverborn stems from the fact that they like to murder, kill, and feed on humans which really jams up the soulstone production.

You can argue that it's the Neverborn's land that the humans are invading, but possession is 9/10ths of the law.
It's their land because they live there? Plenty of humans live there too; with families no less.
It's their land because they take care of it? Hah! The place was wrecked long before the humans arrived.
It's their land because they were there first? And that makes it theirs? If a stoat chases a fox out of a cave, does the cave still belong to the fox?
Besides, the humans are mostly living in an abandoned city that isn't even filled to capacity. 

The Neverborn are not the colonists, but they are the aggressors here. They aren't defending their land because they need it or would use it better than the humans; they're defending it because they do not like how the humans look/smell/act/exist. They are the defenders purely through circumstance.

And don't pull genocide into this. Genocide is not what is happening here. This is a case of kill-until-we-can-mine-in-peace for the humans, and kill-until-... um... the humans are all... dead... for the.. some of the... Neverborn. Hmm.. A lot of the Neverborn eat humans so not sure how that fits into the morality of it all.

Basically you're trying to apply human motivations and ethics to non-human creatures.

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2 hours ago, Jernmajoren said:

As we are Human, then its kill the Neverborn or be killed by them, and since we have already established that the Neverborn are inherently evil its an act of good to kill them :)

Thus performing an genocide is the greatest act of goodness one can do - Join Guild today and start acting good!

Well, it's not only 'kill the Neverborn or be killed by them'. The other option is to pack up and go back to Earth, which is all the Neverborn want.

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22 minutes ago, -Loki- said:

Well, it's not only 'kill the Neverborn or be killed by them'. The other option is to pack up and go back to Earth, which is all the Neverborn want.

That is definitely an option. Let's all just go back to earth, let magic die out, and never practice wizardry again. Yep, definitely an option...

But then again, and think about this: maybe we don't. Maybe we stay, kick the teeth out of these man-eating daemons, mine our fill of soulstones, and secure the future of magic on Earth for centuries to come!

 

So....


All in favor of going home and letting magic die raise your hands. *Crickets*

All in favor of killing the daemons, rebuilding the city, and keeping magic alive raise your hands. "HUZZAH!"



It's just more interesting to stay. :P

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I'd say in some general faction wide terms (not individual masters)...

Most "good" are the Gremlins who are, at worst, just responding to the influx of humans in and around their turf. Chaotic neutral, sure, but that's about as good as it's gonna get in Malifaux. Just some guys living their life minding their own business.

Then I'd argue come Outcast, purely because they're not driven by any guided motivation and just do their own thing, however good or evil that might be.

Then come Guild, Neverborn, Arcanists and Ten Thunders, in no particular order. They're really just all sides of the same (somehow foursided) coin. They all have their objectives, and will justify a lot for this "greater good". The Guild brings order, but only does so for its own gains and has a habit of using order to enforce political agenda. Neverborn may try their best to genocide all humans and are various shades of evil on a personal level, but are also the original inhabitants of Malifaux. They just could've done like the Gremlins but hey, nobody's perfect. The Arcanists fight for the workers if it profits them, and use and discard those workers if it profits them. Also essentially a terrorist organisation. And the Ten Thunders are an underworld Kingdom that tries to plot its way into power. Seem to have a rather "It's just the job" attitude with no particular place for personal morality. 

And lastly come the Ressers, who seem to be working for pure evil that just wants to kill-kill-kill.

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So, let's break this down!

After centuries or more of horrible war and enslavement, the battered survivors of the world pay an awful price to earn their freedom, but in the end it's rather Pyrrhic - the world's destroyed mostly, death has come, the golden age has fallen, and their own bodies have been warped by the magical fallout. But you won. You have peace, and you stay away from the old ruins of you previous life, fearful of waking old demons and very likely, not wishing to deal with the pain of what you lost to win the right to live in peace in this post-apocalyptic hell that was once golden and beautiful.

Then one day, minding your own business, you encounter an alien thing that looks remarkably like you once did. Then more. They are ransacking those abandoned ruins for their power, they're not there a day before they start killing each other over these relics.. and then more come, in droves, through this hole in reality they tore open to invade your world. They've sucked the magic out of their own, blown themselves up out of greed, and start stealing land and taking it for themselves. Worse, some of them start experimenting with the forbidden arts born of the Grave Spirit, and others start poking at the prisons of those ancient gods who enslaved you.

You hate to do it but there's only one solution - you cut off their hole in reality and put them down before they wake up something they can't put down.

Then, a century later, the hole opens again. The invaders return - only this time they're armed heavily, and lead by a group of fascist, imperialist slavers who pay for your hides as proof of death, work their own people in conditions of bondage and worse to rival the Tyrants' excesses, clamp down on those with abilities in their number as the Tyrants did....

Then others rebel against them.. but are violent criminals as much in it for profit as the 'lawmen'. Then more of them begin to build kingdoms on the backs of necromancy, then they show the gremlins whoa re psychotically violent and always hungry how to use weapons so they are no longer being held in check by the predation of their rival predators enough to counteract their explosive birth rates, Then another band of rebels who are violent, magical criminals come in, through another reality hole and start setting up for more invasions...

So, who wants to roll over and die to let these alien invaders rape our world that we paid so desperate a cost to defend once before? Show of Hands! *Crickets*

Show of hands, who wants to repel this invasion and drive these world-ravishing would-be Tyrants back to their own world before they doom both? *HUZZAH!*

 

Humanity are the villains of Malifaux, on the organizational level. The Guild are imperialistic, slaving, soul-selling fascists. The Arcanists and the Thunders may look out for the common man but are, at the management level, driven by the same greed. The Resurrectionists mostly want to rule Malifaux with dark magic.

Every Faction, even the Guild, has its heroic figures. Actually, a lot of the Guild Masters are actually genuinely heroic - Lady Justice, Perdita, even Sonnia - hell, SOnnia especially is a very nuanced protagonist who is sacrificing her own reputation and worse for the greater good as she sees it. But taken collectively, and at the leadership level, there really are no 'good guys' in the setting on the human side. And while the Neverborn are the 'good guys', they're not particularly nice or moral either, at least to the alien invaders.

 

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Maybe I should have posted this in a general discussion about factions lol. I love this discussion right now. I really love hearing about the lore and fluff of the game. He got back to me today and he does really feel the Lady Justice box. 

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4 hours ago, Wolfpact said:

So, let's break this down!

We kinda had a big war. We wrecked the planets but we're the only ones left so I guess we won. We stay away from the dark god-things we caged in the old city but generally go about existing on this dusty old rock.

Then one day, minding my own business, I saw this thing that looked a lot like I once did. So I killed it and went back to bed. But then more came! They were walking around the town whooping it up, and I had a hope spot when I saw one kill another, but they didn't nearly kill themselves fast enough so I had to take action. So I tried talking to them.

Hah! I got you there didn't I? 

Naw, but seriously I killed them. Then I killed some more. Then I went to the big hole they were all coming through, and they were making so much noise that they were about to wake up those old monsters we woke up. So I got my buddies, and my soldiers, and my slaves, and we closed the hole, and did horrible things to them. Problem solved! 

Then, a century later, the hole opens again. The guys return - only this time they're armed heavily, and lead by a group of fascist, imperialist slavers who pay for your hides as proof of death, work their own people in conditions of bondage and worse to rival the Tyrants' excesses, clamp down on those with abilities in their number as the Tyrants did.... I'd admire them if I didn't want to eat them so much! :ram

Then others rebel against them.. but are violent criminals as much in it for profit as the 'lawmen'. :tome Then more of them begin to build kingdoms on the backs of necromancy, :crow then they show the gremlins whoa re psychotically violent and always hungry how to use weapons so they are no longer being held in check by the predation of their rival predators enough to counteract their explosive birth rates, Then another band of rebels who are violent, magical criminals come in, through another reality hole and start setting up for more invasions... IT'S LIKE FRIGGIN CHRISTMAS! 

So, who wants to got to bed and hope these noobs don't wake up the old guys? *Crickets*

And now, who wants TO EAT THEM? *HUZZAH!*


Yeah! That's what I thought!

So come on, you twisted horde of all-abusive freaks! Let's go eat the humans! I get the bodies, you get the souls! :D

Welp...

If I were a nine-foot tall purple deamon that ate children and cast my shadow through the breath to give humans nightmares, I would definitely vote for you! :lol:

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4 minutes ago, OneKelvin said:

Welp...

If I were a nine-foot tall purple deamon that ate children and cast my shadow through the breath to give humans nightmares, I would definitely vote for you! :lol:

Yeah.. may want to read the lore a bit better. You're welcome to your opinion on who is in the right here.. but I suppose you rooted for the aliens in Independence Day, then? :lol:

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5 minutes ago, Wolfpact said:

Yeah.. may want to read the lore a bit better. You're welcome to your opinion on who is in the right here.. but I suppose you rooted for the aliens in Independence Day, then?

Nah. But I did root for the humans in Avatar. 

And you sir, are rooting for the demons in Malifaux. It's crazy world ain't it? 

1nmeh6.jpg

It ain't bad to root for the bad guys, but don't get it twisted when you do. ;)

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8 minutes ago, OneKelvin said:

Nah. But I did root for the humans in Avatar. 

And you sir, are rooting for the demons in Malifaux. It's crazy world ain't it? 

1nmeh6.jpg

It ain't bad to root for the bad guys, but don't get it twisted when you do. ;)

Yeah, so there's no shame in backing the invading soul-stealing world-looters.

I mean, some people just gotta root for the Empire ;)

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