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Worst models in Outcast


DXXXVIII

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Which are the models you never see on the Table? And why?
Would like to see them get some errata? And how?

Tbh. I really like the Desperate Mercenaries but never see why I should hire them over... well anything else. Cheap mercenaries, take Freikorps, cheap schemer, take Void wretch or Winged Plague... If at least their "get one soulstone if it dies" werent range-restricted which kind of prevents them from solo scheme running because they want to stay near your master.

Ama No Zako... Never saw her on the Table as well. Her high price category is allready contested by many great models in outcast which arent MI 5 and so suit-dependant.
Id like to see her get MI6 or at least a few built in suits. ;-(

Third: Aionius. I heard many ppl telling me hes fine... but I still never see him on the Table. Neither by me nor my opponents. And to myself it seems as if his tricks were too unreliable and expensive. Speaking of expensive, His soulstone cost is HUGE. He competes with A&D and Killjoy which seem to have a lot more impact. Are his abilities and actions worth the price?
I'd think aboout picking him if he were 10/11 Soulstones... and even then i'd think twice about it.

Freikorps Specialist. Hes just too slow and if you slap scramble on him he's too expensive. Hed be finde with just one walk more. But as it is now his only use (As far as i read on the forums) seems to be to stay in the backline and unparalyse Jacks Crew if he also brought a nurse.

How about you guys?
Which models do you never see and why?

How about you guys?

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I agree with the desperate mercenary. He is a bit dated and does not see much use. I want so bad to use the specialist but he is so slow and I have not figured out how to keep him up with the team to make up for his SS cost. Aionius though, that guy is super dope. I use him in a Tara crew and he ends up being the MVP for half the games. He is also really good for the void crew because whatever counters incorporeal only does half damage to Aionius. I've found attacking things that are fast and slow are really powerful. 

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Desperate Mercenaries are certainly terrible, especially in Outcasts (there's a gimicky Collodion list that uses them to... Mediocre effect? And there might be a similar Tara list but it's just a gimmick). I haven't tried Ama No Zako - i can see her being good but she's really suit hungry and I've never felt like I've come across a situation to try her out. Aionus, though, i think is the bees knees! If the scheme pool is killy then sure, take ashes, but he gets so much done in schemey pools - i love taking him with Parker, and rarely regret it. He also fits well with Tara, and then is just good with other masters. I like how he pairs with the Emissary. I've never felt like taking him with Jack though. Specialist is OK - if you can speed him up with fast (Tara) or pushes (Parker, Jack) then he can be great in the right match ups (he's a Specialist, after all!) - the big problem for me is the Df 4. I think most of our other models are good though!

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Desperate Mercs are the one model I would never consider taking in a game.  I own them just for the sake of owning them.  For 4 ss, I'd rather take the Effigy, or spend the extra point for a Freikorpsmann.  Ideally, they don't really fit well with my lists, and I've honestly not seen them fielded against me either.  I'd like them to be better, but I feel that their purpose is more of a fun concept, versus a competitive one.

Ama No Zako is great, but my experience is limited to her as a 10T Henchman.  However, I did use her in my first Henchman Hardcore, and ended up coming in 1st Place in that tournament.  That being said, she'd probably do better in a smaller sized game, where either she lead the crew herself, or used as a tarpit model to keep models either at bay, or from leaving her reach.  Her Ml 5 is only average, but her damage track makes up for it.  If there's no ideal situation for her "Miasma" action, her other (0) action to Obey a friendly model is always worth trying. 

Aionus is great too.  Not many non-Masters get 3 AP to do things, and any model that can get away with a 3rd AP (even if it's dedicated to specific actions) are always great in my book.  He's got great (0) actions to choose from, and depending on the scheme pool can be quite a game changer.

Freikorps Specialists, I would concur gets very little play time on my crewlis, unless I know who I'm facing, and have a use for Blast Templates, or expect to be facing models that rely on scrap and corpse markers.  If I'm playing "fluff" intensive crews (such as in Campaign games), I'd certainly take them.  Competitively though, they're almost a double edged sword, where you'll get some good returns, but also be giving up a considerable amount for.

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5 hours ago, Azrrael said:

Parker barrows, desperate mercs, freikorpmen, AMA no zako, specialist, pride, 

Parker?? Hes really good. Iv been using him recently  to a lot of success. He clicked for me when I realized hes not a damage dealer, hes a toolbox for helping his crew do stuff. 

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  • 3 weeks later...

I've been hearing of people putting Desperate Mercs to good use just to spam those attacks to either wear away enemies or force them to cheat cards to stop the 'death of a thousand cuts'.

 

I'm still dubious about this though - I mean, their rapid fire type action is Sh2, isn't it?  So even hitting a weak minion, odds are you're going to lose every duel even before cheating.  So I don't see how that technique works...but people are saying it does. 

 

Anther vote for Friekorps Specialist.  Too slow, too expensive.  He's never done anything useful at all when I've played him

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1 hour ago, CapnBloodbeard said:

I'm still dubious about this though - I mean, their rapid fire type action is Sh2, isn't it?  So even hitting a weak minion, odds are you're going to lose every duel even before cheating.  So I don't see how that technique works...but people are saying it does. 

I suspect the technique, if you can call it that, relies on the :+fate from Frantic or from some other source. While Sh2 is awful, and Sh2 with a :+fate is still relatively awful, each attack does still has a chance of connecting with low Df targets. 

You're flipping two cards, your opponent is usually only flipping one, and you get to do this four times in your single activation. You will either win some of these duels or your opponent will cheat to beat you, or both.

The thought of attacking with low odds of hitting isn't a welcoming one in Malifaux,  but when they can essentially shoot 4 times with a :+fate in one activation, well that's kind of fun in it's own right and could be useful. I wouldn't use it, but I believe this is why some people do.

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At sh2 they need to flip +3 or +4 higher card than a typical opponent to tie. I don't know about you but my duels are rarely "I flip a 7 -so do I!" affairs. Someone flips a high moderate while opponent flips a weak is how it often seems to go. With that kind of card flipping Desperate Merc will be hitting occasionally given 2 attacks per AP and possible +flips.

Whether that's a good way to go through your deck or spend hiring SS or model AP I couldn't say. Never fielded Desperate Mercs:P

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Unlike in dice games, volume of attacks with low acting value is actually a bad thing in Malifaux: you need those kings and queens in your deck for your high-value shots. Wasting a 13 on a Desperate Merc shot is... questionable.

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6 minutes ago, Seadhna said:

Unlike in dice games, volume of attacks with low acting value is actually a bad thing in Malifaux: you need those kings and queens in your deck for your high-value shots. Wasting a 13 on a Desperate Merc shot is... questionable.

Flipping cards from your deck doesn't affect your chances of flipping high/low cards (except on a micro level but that isn't interesting outside the scope of a single specific game). The distribution of the deck remains essentially the same - you aren't wasting high cards because you are also flipping low cards and middle cards.

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1 hour ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Flipping cards from your deck doesn't affect your chances of flipping high/low cards (except on a micro level but that isn't interesting outside the scope of a single specific game). The distribution of the deck remains essentially the same - you aren't wasting high cards because you are also flipping low cards and middle cards.

Example:

you Wild Firing with a Desperate Merc twice, on each attack you flip a 13 and an ace. Now you have no 13's in the deck until you shuffle it, so this turn your significant models can't flip 13's. Across multiple games - sure, but that lowers your chances of winning duels when they actually matter. 

For that same reason shooting into engagements is in most cases a really bad thing to do.

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19 minutes ago, Seadhna said:

Example:

you Wild Firing with a Desperate Merc twice, on each attack you flip a 13 and an ace. Now you have no 13's in the deck until you shuffle it, so this turn your significant models can't flip 13's. Across multiple games - sure, but that lowers your chances of winning duels when they actually matter. 

For that same reason shooting into engagements is in most cases a really bad thing to do.

But you also can't flip an ace. which lowers your chance of losing a duel when it actually matters. ( after all you can only cheat so many times...)

So that then means it depends on what sort of flips you are making. Your deck is now more likely to flip a moderate on a negative damage flip, which could be a good thing. 

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5 hours ago, Seadhna said:

Example:

you Wild Firing with a Desperate Merc twice, on each attack you flip a 13 and an ace. Now you have no 13's in the deck until you shuffle it, so this turn your significant models can't flip 13's. Across multiple games - sure, but that lowers your chances of winning duels when they actually matter. 

For that same reason shooting into engagements is in most cases a really bad thing to do.

An equally likely outcome when you fire with the desperate merc twice is that on each attack you flip two aces - now you have no aces in your deck.

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It seems most 'useful' against Ressers in particular.

Most of the lineup, even beatsticks and masters, routinely clock in at Df4. Some of our stuff even has Df2 or Df3. There's also tonnes of Hard to Wound and Impossible to Wound, so you get to flip even more cards when you do land a hit. Sooner or later you're going to find a Joker, and I think with these guys, both Jokers are good. Either an almost certain hit (Red), boost of damage (Red) or knowing it's been taken out of the deck so your more important duels can succeed (Black). Their Disguised ability also seems pretty good against Ressers due to heavy emphasis on Melee. 

As a Resser, the only thing that scares me more than Kang is when someone outputs massive quantities of attacks that circumvents my Impossible to Wound/Hard to Wound/Armour +2. I have lots of TNs to meet and abilities or actions demanding a discard, so I don't have many cards to cheat defense duels with.

Again, I'm not sure this makes them worth the 4ss. I imagine people would totally hire them in Outcasts at 3ss if they lost the SS regain trick but retained everything else. Would do you reckon, would you hire them at 3ss? What would you change on their card to hire them at 4ss?

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17 hours ago, Seadhna said:

Example:

you Wild Firing with a Desperate Merc twice, on each attack you flip a 13 and an ace. Now you have no 13's in the deck until you shuffle it, so this turn your significant models can't flip 13's. Across multiple games - sure, but that lowers your chances of winning duels when they actually matter. 

For that same reason shooting into engagements is in most cases a really bad thing to do.

Not to jump too much onto the bandwagon but you should also consider that your opponent is just as likely to burn a high card on defence, and in the majority of cases their reward is simply to keep things the same, while your reward for flipping a high card is to either force a cheat or deal some damage.

1 hour ago, hydranixx said:

Again, I'm not sure this makes them worth the 4ss. I imagine people would totally hire them in Outcasts at 3ss if they lost the SS regain trick but retained everything else. Would do you reckon, would you hire them at 3ss? What would you change on their card to hire them at 4ss?

I expect they'd be very popular at 3 stones. They have exactly the same statline as a Bayou Gremlin (except for Ht of course), roughly equivalent abilities (positive attacks for bayou two card, disguised for squeel), better damage tracks but a shorter gun range and no triggers. They're lacking Drunk & Reckless and the ability to pop 6 damage with Dumb Luck, but they're otherwise pretty close. Bayou Gremlins are generally considered to be really good, and part of it is their cost - 3 stones for a significant minion is amazing, for stalling if nothing else.

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6 hours ago, hydranixx said:

Again, I'm not sure this makes them worth the 4ss. I imagine people would totally hire them in Outcasts at 3ss if they lost the SS regain trick but retained everything else. Would do you reckon, would you hire them at 3ss? What would you change on their card to hire them at 4ss?

I'd hire the heck out of them at 3SS. I find with some outcast masters it's a struggle to get 8 activations, and often trying to reach 8 means that lists end up being a lot less flexible than I would like, and I think having a significant model at 3SS just to jam into a list as an 8th activation would be amazing. I sometimes stick a pointless Malifaux Child into a list just for the activation and at 1SS more (if they were 3SS) a Desperate Merc would be loads better than a Malifaux Child with a master that doesn't need it.

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Of course if they were three stones we'd have to get a Rare limit just to prevent us running ten of them. I wouldn't say they were bad as much as they're bad compared to our other four stone models. As a three stone model they'd find a place in a lot of list. Rare 4 like Guild Hounds maybe?

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Do people get a use out of Convict Gunslingers? I've seen them fielded quite a few times but they never seem to sing. Except when with Tara but she can make anything shine if she wants to so that's kinda of a moot point, I feel - they most certainly aren't the best choice for her.

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21 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Do people get a use out of Convict Gunslingers? I've seen them fielded quite a few times but they never seem to sing. Except when with Tara but she can make anything shine if she wants to so that's kinda of a moot point, I feel - they most certainly aren't the best choice for her.

I've not seen them as often as I'd expect (I think they tend to get a little overshadowed at their cost by things like Johan) but they've always been pretty impressive. The first time I really saw them on the table, my opponent's gunslinger did more than their master.

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