Obey and head hunter

[Azrrael]

Enemy model is standing on a head marker not engaged with anything and is obeyed to pick up the head who gets the point. 

[Kbonn]

The enemy model belongs to your opponent's crew, and took a (1) action to remove the head.  I believe this counts as your opponents crew scoring the point.

[necroon]

Headhunter's Victory Points Condition states that a VP is rewarded to a Crew that removes at least one head marker from play (via 1 (1) interact action). 

Regardless of what player controls the action that model belongs to the crew that hired it (or summoned it) and, to me, that means that crew would count as removing that marker. Obey does not change which crew it belongs to - it only caused the model to take a (1) action that is controlled by the player using Obey. 

Sources:

Small Book Page 22

Quote

Who Flips?
The player who controls an Action flips for the model. This is usually the player who is in control of the model’s Crew, but some Actions (like Obey) will temporarily change who the controller of an Action is.

Small Book Page 23

Quote

When a model’s Actions are controlled by the opponent (for instance with the Obey Action) the model does not change which models are considered friendly, its friends are still its friends.

Controlling a model's (1) Interact action changes no variables as to whose model it is or whose crew it is - it only allows you to declare the legal variables of the action as would otherwise be allowed (save for when, of course, this is not the case like with Heed my Voice making the Hungering Darkness friendly for that action).

[Slobber]

26 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

The real take-away is that crews can control actions performed by models in the enemy crew, and since Headhunter says when a crew picks up a head it gets a point, not a model in that crew, it's going to take a rule citation that doesn't exist or a very convincing argument that when a crew controls the action that picks up the head, because again headhunter makes no mention of model allegiance, it's somehow not that crew that is picking up the head.

Except that if you obey a model to summon or place a scheme markers the summoned model or marker belongs to the model's crew not the obeying crew. Seems like interacts are a better comparison than attacks. 

Also models always belong to the crew that paid for them. 

[Kbonn]

It would seem like we didn't get an official answer last time either.   

[Slobber]

25 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

Here's the last time this came up. 

I'm of the opinion that the crew controlling the action is the one that scores a la reckoning. Meaning it doesn't matter which crew the model that is picking it up belongs to, but which crew is controlling the model at that time.

How do you account for models not switching crews? The text on head hunter is "Any model may take an (1) interact to remove a head marker..."  Then  "... A crew earns 1VP if it removed a head marker..."  It's the model performing the interaction who's crew scores.

Unless I'm missing something.

Can you please break down your reasoning?

[necroon]

2 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

And headhunter makes no mention of model or crew allegiance, so it doesn't matter if the model is friendly to the crew doing the action or not.

A crew, as defined by the rulebook, is made up of models (hire or summoned). A model in a crew took an action to remove a head. Crews (made up of the models in them) score Headhunter. That's my piece on it. Your more than welcome to disagree - I have no desire to debate or argue.

[santaclaws01]

54 minutes ago, Kbonn said:

Simply put, you can't take FAQ questions related to attacks and apply it to interacts.   Almost all points are scored as a result of interacts or attacks,(some are just being in the right spot).  But of the two, the best we can see is when my model takes an interact to put a scheme marker down, it belongs to me, regardless of who controlled it at the time.   You may be right about the intent santa, but currently as written there is simply no text that tells me that the enemy crew would score the head.

It also can't just be dismissed out of hand. The disclaimer for the FAQ is that no answer will necessarily apply outside the specific scope of the question, not that it can't period, or that parts of the answer can't be applied elsewhere. Just like the FAQ on adding damage stats that you have to suffer damage to suffer additional damage with something like crit strike, the same concept applies to preventing additional damage with Aether Connection in that flipping a BJ on prevention is still preventing 0 damage. The FAQ question I referenced sets up the confirmation that crews can control actions of models that don't belong to it. This is a concept that is additionally backed by using the resources of the crew controlling an action while the action is being taken. And again, the comparison to dropping a scheme marker is not a valid one because it states a friendly scheme marker is dropped when using an interact action to do so. Headhunter makes no mention of friendly or enemy models, or even models period, in relation to scoring. It only ever cares for dropping heads, not picking them up.

[Slobber]

Reading head hunter it seems clear that the interacting model is removing the marker, then the crew is the one scoring. So if you obey an enemy model to remove a head marker that model's crew scores. 

[Kbonn]

Simply put, you can't take FAQ questions related to attacks and apply it to interacts.   Almost all points are scored as a result of interacts or attacks,(some are just being in the right spot).  But of the two, the best we can see is when my model takes an interact to put a scheme marker down, it belongs to me, regardless of who controlled it at the time.   You may be right about the intent santa, but currently as written there is simply no text that tells me that the enemy crew would score the head.

[santaclaws01]

2 minutes ago, Slobber said:

How do you account for models not switching crews? The text on head hunter is "Any model may take an (1) interact to remove a head marker..."  Then  "... A crew earns 1VP if it removed a head marker..."  It's the model performing the interaction who's crew scores.

Unless I'm missing something.

Can you please break down your reasoning?

In reckoning I can obey an enemy model to kill my models and have it count for me, because it says "this crew [does condition for VP]". Headhunter is also "this crew [does condition for VP]", the only difference is one is killing and the other is interacting. 

[Slobber]

39 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

In reckoning I can obey an enemy model to kill my models and have it count for me, because it says "this crew [does condition for VP]". Headhunter is also "this crew [does condition for VP]", the only difference is one is killing and the other is interacting. 

Here's the pertaining faq answer.

"3) If a model is killed by an Ability or Action, which Crew counts as having made the kill? When a model is killed as the result of an Action, the Crew controlling the Action counts as having made the kill. If a model is killed by an Ability, the model with the Ability counts as having made the kill." 

It doesn't metion interacts, so until updated in a FAQ I'm going to have to stick with my original reasoning. 

We've been told many times that faq answers only apply to the direct question, I'd be hesitant to try to intuit congruence here.

[santaclaws01]

17 minutes ago, Slobber said:

Here's the pertaining faq answer.

"3) If a model is killed by an Ability or Action, which Crew counts as having made the kill? When a model is killed as the result of an Action, the Crew controlling the Action counts as having made the kill. If a model is killed by an Ability, the model with the Ability counts as having made the kill." 

It doesn't metion interacts, so until updated in a FAQ I'm going to have to stick with my original reasoning. 

We've been told many times that faq answers only apply to the direct question, I'd be hesitant to try to intuit congruence here.

The real take-away is that crews can control actions performed by models in the enemy crew, and since Headhunter says when a crew picks up a head it gets a point, not a model in that crew, it's going to take a rule citation that doesn't exist or a very convincing argument that when a crew controls the action that picks up the head, because again headhunter makes no mention of model allegiance, it's somehow not that crew that is picking up the head.

[santaclaws01]

28 minutes ago, necroon said:

Headhunter's Victory Points Condition states that a VP is rewarded to a Crew that removes at least one head marker from play (via 1 (1) interact action). 

Regardless of what player controls the action that model belongs to the crew that hired it (or summoned it) and, to me, that means that crew would count as removing that marker. Obey does not change which crew it belongs to - it only caused the model to take a (1) action that is controlled by the player using Obey. 

Sources:

Small Book Page 22

Small Book Page 23

Controlling a model's (1) Interact action changes no variables as to whose model it is or whose crew it is - it only allows you to declare the legal variables of the action as would otherwise be allowed (save for when, of course, this is not the case like with Heed my Voice making the Hungering Darkness friendly for that action).

And headhunter makes no mention of model or crew allegiance, so it doesn't matter if the model is friendly to the crew doing the action or not.

[santaclaws01]

30 minutes ago, Slobber said:

Except that if you obey a model to summon or place a scheme markers the summoned model or marker belongs to the model's crew not the obeying crew. Seems like interacts are a better comparison than attacks. 

Also models always belong to the crew that paid for them. 

Summoning is its own thing that doesn't use the same language as headhunter at any point(no mention of friendly, enemy, or crew until it specifies that controlling an enemy model to summon will summon an enemy model), and interact to drop a scheme marker specifies in its rules that it's a friendly scheme marker, so again not the same language.

[santaclaws01]

Here's the last time this came up. 

I'm of the opinion that the crew controlling the action is the one that scores a la reckoning. Meaning it doesn't matter which crew the model that is picking it up belongs to, but which crew is controlling the model at that time.