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So where were the guild players at adepticon?


4thstringer

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1 hour ago, Trample said:

Maybe they aren't very competitive. They have the worst record of games logged here: https://logfaux.com/dashboard/meta if you filter to GG2017. 

...if I would input my games for the past month, Hoffman's win percentage would go up. (So would Brewie's, for that matter, but that was my opponent versus my McCabe.) That is wrong on a fundamental level. :huh: I'm mostly awful at this!

Whoever you are, get the brutal emissary, immediately!

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Guild can be competitive, but with a different mindset and different masters. Nellie/Lucius/Hoffman/McCabe/McMourning have the tools to do anything in GG2017 as well as any master in the game (better than most for Lucius and Nellie). For a long time the Guild meta has been all about buffing our masters and using them to table our opponents - unfortunately that approach doesn't score any points in the current spread.

We've been the faction of "Kill everything, score later," for so long that people have just forgotten - or never learned how - to focus on scoring points.

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8 hours ago, admiralvorkraft said:

We've been the faction of "Kill everything, score later," for so long that people have just forgotten - or never learned how - to focus on scoring points.

It's a lot easier to focus on scoring points when you have access to cheap models with extra scheming AP in the form of leaps or marker dropping.

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13 hours ago, Myyrä said:

It's a lot easier to focus on scoring points when you have access to cheap models with extra scheming AP in the form of leaps or marker dropping.

Sure, we do have to build to the strat/schemes rather than a killy crew with two scheme runners into any pool. With the journalists we have more movement tricks than Outcasts, we've always had marker manipulation but now we have great marker tricks.

Nellie can win the activation game against virtually any master. Lucius has incredible scheming/killing/positioning. McCabe still has wonderful buffing. McMourning has good scheme manipulation, solid killing power and stellar mobility.

It's really just the Sonnia and Perdita aren't scoring us anything and we need to get over that. They can still lead crews, but you aren't going to get away with sinking 13+ points into support/upgrades/etc for them any more.

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5 minutes ago, admiralvorkraft said:

Sure, we do have to build to the strat/schemes rather than a killy crew with two scheme runners into any pool. With the journalists we have more movement tricks than Outcasts, we've always had marker manipulation but now we have great marker tricks.

Nellie can win the activation game against virtually any master. Lucius has incredible scheming/killing/positioning. McCabe still has wonderful buffing. McMourning has good scheme manipulation, solid killing power and stellar mobility.

It's really just the Sonnia and Perdita aren't scoring us anything and we need to get over that. They can still lead crews, but you aren't going to get away with sinking 13+ points into support/upgrades/etc for them any more.

So the reason that guild players are only winning 35 percent of their games is they need to get good? 

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No, but they need to get flexible. The standard builds of the past three years (Sonnia or Perdita leading, Franc, Loco, Sidir, etc.) don't work in GG2017. The faction still has plenty of tools to get work done it's just that the meta - particularly here on the forums - is still locked into a mindset of murder first score later. Case in point, the first response in the other thread about an Arcanist thinking about starting Guild as a second faction that says what we do is "burn it to the ground."

That mindset, outside of a small subset of pools, doesn't score points. Fortunately we have an entire varied faction, of fast schemers (Watchers, Orderlies) flexible schemers (Journalists, Dade, Gage, Queeg). We have one of the best Stake a Claim masters in the game in the form of Hoffman. We have two powerful, extremely flexible masters who love everything about GG2017 - Nellie and newLucius. We have Dashel summoning in Guild Guard that are actually making use of their start of activation place to deny schemes. We have newly improved Guardians locking down huge sections of the board, Hunters controlling movement and spamming slow while remaining hard to pin down, some of the best hand destruction in the game in the form of (still brutal) Austringers.

My win record with Guild is better under GG2017 because it put an emphasis on the side of the faction that I've always preferred using despite it not being as good in previous formats as Perdita/Sonnia+. 

So no, I'm sure that Guild players are good at what they have learned how to do. Better than me by far because I'm a lousy aggressive player. But what they do isn't currently scoring them points so they need to change up their game and get creative. That's harder for us because, more than any other faction, we've locked ourselves into a rut; one approach, one playstyle, one mindset, a limited pool of models.

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This reminds me a lot of the "are we actually underpowered" thread at the beginning of the year :)

 

I've played as Guild the whole year now and I'm still surprised to find completely new combos/models to look into every other game or so.

I've won my fair share of games this year, so would say Guild is certainly competetive in GG17, although I'm hard pressed to find "the" niche for Guild - I play them because I like to, don't know why that doesn't seem enough of a reason for other people to play them at tournaments more often :)

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Echoing @Tris on a strong sense of deja vu. We will never have our insidious madness or gupp equivalent. We do have masters and henchmen who give our faction access to very similar tricks. I  think that's our thing really, base models changing jobs depending on the rest of your crew instead of models always being tailor-made to scheme the way some other factions get. I'd say we're still better of than most outcasts (Levi not included) at scheming. I guess guild are impopular because people have some sort of "stick it to the man" feeling towards them. Might be the competition between dudes in coats and fantastic fantasy stuff too.

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Hey,

I finally looked at the results of the tournament:

https://www.bestcoastpairings.com/r/yrtran6a

There is an observation that I found interesting. The arcanists, which were more propular at adepticon (6 arcanist players versus 2 guild players), actually performed significantly worse. The best arcanist (in terms of ranking) got a lower ranking than the worst guild player. I found this obervation interesting in light of the discussion above because the arcanists are traditionally seen as having very good schemers.

What are your thoughts on this? Do you actually need some gun power after all?

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I think that the two Guild players might've been more dedicated because it seems that they might have to jump through more loops in order to get good results in gg17?

(because, let's be honest - Arcanists have plenty of hitting power themselves :) )

Results from a single event are just not significant, what if the Guild players where, simply put, better players, experienced 'veterans' vs. Arcanist newcomers?

 

But good to know nonetheless, always a pleasure beat those Arcanists^^

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57 minutes ago, 4thstringer said:

One of the things I'm reading here is Guild has suffered a significant change in play style.  Since for a long time we were the straightforward beginners faction that is likely to be a difficult thing to adjust to. 

Not 'suffered' ;) but yeah, that could very well be the case.

Many beginners still tend to go for wave 1 Guild masters as I have witnessed at our recent tournament, but I do my best to tell them that there's more to this faction than just killing (although it helps many times :P )

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Francisco fanboys? ;)

(I ought to get Phiona assembled but I can't bring myself to do it while Sonnia's still queued up on the painting table. Forget painting her in pieces. I'll assemble her.)

Heck, even us players seem more committed to our favorite masters than the faction as a whole. Ryin, and someone before him, called us a plug-and-play faction where the master matters slightly less than the crew, but you'd never know that from talking to us.

We're an additive stat bonus faction, a chain activation faction, a surprisingly denial-focused without the need to hit TNs but outside of Dispel Magic witch hunter crews nobody capitalizes on it faction. Family crews could be focusing on shutting down interacts. Upgraded crews on positive flips to willpower could be fighting Neverborn, but usually that's Family (there go those additive bonuses again) with the added willpower instead. Journalists could be Jack Dawing everyone with activation penalties. McMourning's passive poison bubbles, and nurses. Bury mechanics, and now attack-the-buried mechanics to match in the recruiter. But somehow Guild collected all the players who felt that applying conditions was somehow less honorable and enjoyable for both parties than straight-up murdering some fools.

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44 minutes ago, 4thstringer said:

I guess this is a follow up question, but what is our identity?  If we aren't the point and shoot faction anymore,   I worry that we struggle for identity.  We can define ourselves by our negatives,  but that seems like a sad way to look at it. 

 

I've never understood why guild are considered so beginner friendly. If you noob it up and try to cram Lady J down the center of the board you're in for a bad time. Sheneeds a lot of tactics and setup. It's alot easier to use Lilith from behind a barn and single out vulnerableopponentsand that's not exactly rocketscience. And the old schemes like power ritual that required you to place markers at the opposing sides corners is a lot easoer with an inaidous madness or aomething similar. Interference is a lot easier with asummoner than with LJ, Perdita or Sonnia. The list goes on.

Gremlins and outcasts match us in the point and shoot department and have arguably always done so aince forever. Arcanists are knownasthe armoured faction but that'sonly true for half the faction and guild can create just as armour-heavy lists so it's hardly unique to thm. With the new releases I'm not sure the factions can claim to be that unique at all, there is so much overlap. We still rule the chain activation game I think so we can apply more pressure in a single activation than most. I'd say the faction identities are mostly thematic as in story/models

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11 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

With the new releases I'm not sure the factions can claim to be that unique at all, there is so much overlap. I'd say the faction identities are mostly thematic as in story/models

^This :)

 

Also, where does it say that 'our' identity is the 'best' for the current meta all the time? :)

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8 minutes ago, Tris said:

^This :)

 

Also, where does it say that 'our' identity is the 'best' for the current meta all the time? :)

The same place it says every avid fan's football team is "the best". :D Doesn't matter if they play so badly they got kicked out of the top league, my team is still the best team because I can never be wrong. Or something along those lines.

 

I've kinda got the opposite vibe that some guild players feel very confortable in the underdog position andfeel we have the worst faction. Sort of: every other faction is so OP that when I loose it's the models but when I win it's because I am the spirit of gaming incarnate ;)

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I agree with Ludvig. Guild seems like the easiest faction because we have a lot of high stat, high damage attacks but it turns out we melt quite quick. We don`t have Leaps, don`t have terryfyings, and not a lot of card draw compared to Ressers with a Philip.

We also lack a summoner and I believe this is also quite important as we don`t really have a safe interference bet apart from Nellie or "blow the enemy off the table"

 

As for the Adepticon Arcanist players:

They didn`t buy Sandeep yet :P

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