Bandersnatch and Will O Wisp - Opinions?

[ringsnake]

I figured these could be combined into a single topic, since the front of their cards are similar.

Both have almost identical stats, and incorporeal. Though the Wisp has no charge, and one less wound. That means lowish Df and WP, and decent walk. Like most incorporeal really low Wds.

The snatch has two abilities related to its shadow hiding ability, and the Wisp is insignificant and instead places scheme markers when enemy models within 3" fail a WP check.

Oh, and the Bandersnatch costs five points, and the Wisp three.

Back of card is where the really differ.

The Wisp has a melee attack that's just awful, but has a slight chance to hand out slow. The better attack is a cast that does no damage, but adds a condition that prevents the victim from charging, and can only be gotten rid of by doing a walk towards the Wisp that made the attack. Both are against WP, so can also be used to drop scheme markers.

The thing that people seem to be focussed on is a limited ability to use (2) tactical actions of other Neverborn models as a (1), but there are only a few actions where it's of much interest. You free up Mama Z to get voodoo dolls and still do stuff, and if you have Kade and Teddy you can turbo boost the Teddy.

The bandersnatch is much more interesting, though at 5ss still isn't going to be amazing. It's melee and ranged attacks are more interesting when it hides in a shadow, since they get a boost to range of the Ht of the victim. Note that you can target your own models with Crawl Into Shadow, so you can bring a Ht3 model for a 5" melee range or 9" crawl into shadow range.

Iassume you target one of your own models with Crawl into Shadow at game start, and then jump into an enemy shadow. Interesting how you can use the trigger to pull enemy models close,

I can easily see how both models can win a game for you, but are mostly frustration pieces. A voices Pandora list with wisps and plant explosives could be a thing yes?

 

[marke83]

I faced a snatch few days ago, and sure enough it is an annoying thing for its points. The model is also gorgeous live, but Im not sure how I feel about the fact it spends more time off the table than on the table. 

[Joel]

Both models have very different roles on and (in the case of the bandersnatch) off the table.  It's worth noting that the bandersnatch is summonable with dreamer being a nightmare, and that having it crawl inside a terrifying model can make for some interesting tricks.

[Palooka]

I must confess, I can't see what we're talking about here. But I think that Wisps are hands down one of the greatest pieces of tech in Ripples of Fate. It's so rare that a 3ss model does so much - 3ss I don't see as a big investment - and frankly the ability to use those 2AP actions is so huge it's worth it every time. A wisp, Zoriada and a Voodoo Doll is collectively 5 Activations. And you get to re-hem every time you do it.

The Paranormal Activity thing I think is pretty underwhelming - so I'll give you that.

Where's Teddy, I've not used it but it seems a much better use of a Wisp's AP than using Kade's AP to push a Teddy around.

Spawn Mothers get more eggs! I think this one is quite underrated as it makes a fairly average model quite useable.

In short, the Wisp seems to be from a design point a bit of a patch for underused models. And in that, it does quite well - also, that Wisp's Call thing is really useful. Only Primordial Magic is better value in NB, frankly.

[Treehouse]

I haven't played with Wisps yet, but I gather that they are quite different to the Bandersnatch.

 

The 'Snatch isn't actually so much about attacking - though its damage is solid for a 5 point minion IMO. It is more there to mess with your opponents crew or allow for mean WIP / terrifying / pounce synergies. It can also fill the role as a sheme-runner. Though it can't get away from an enemy model without a def-duel when crawling out of its shadow, you could crawl into a friendly model -and with its Mov 5 incorp. its not the fastest we got but solid and can adapt to different circumstances.

It can go down fast and the timing of shadow crawl can be a pain, but I like Ol'Snatch for the shennanigans he allows for.

[ringsnake]

4 hours ago, marke83 said:

I faced a snatch few days ago, and sure enough it is an annoying thing for its points. The model is also gorgeous live, but Im not sure how I feel about the fact it spends more time off the table than on the table. 

What did your opponent use it with? I'm thinking of using it and the wisps both with Pandora. There seem to be a lot of dirty combos there. Shutting down enemy movement, flicking damage on a point or two at a time, creating piles of scheme markers to fulfill schemes, etc...

I also want to try them with Lucius and WP based models like Candy to create schemes to work with his upgrade attacks that require schemes to burn. Probably also one or more of the Knights for the same reason.

[Treehouse]

I dunno, if you take the Wisps and the Snatch aaaand want to go heavy on Pandora's WIP damage (aka taking Sorrows and most likly Iggy), you will end up sinking alot of points into models that can die easily. I guess it depends on what the shemes are (as always). Positioning the Wisps in synergy with Pandora in a way that you can drop the markers where they are supposed to go might be more of a pain than just taking a Madness. Though the Snatch crawling into Pandy's shadow is nice if you have if you are playing Box-Pandora.

 

[marke83]

14 hours ago, ringsnake said:

What did your opponent use it with? I'm thinking of using it and the wisps both with Pandora. There seem to be a lot of dirty combos there. Shutting down enemy movement, flicking damage on a point or two at a time, creating piles of scheme markers to fulfill schemes, etc...

I also want to try them with Lucius and WP based models like Candy to create schemes to work with his upgrade attacks that require schemes to burn. Probably also one or more of the Knights for the same reason.

He was playing Bandersnatch with Pandora. I'm not sure if he had anything specific in mind. I got the feeling he just wanted to test it out and see how the model works on its own. He crawled into my Wicked Doll, and then into Thorn, and basically killed them with my own models, who in turn went low from Bandersnatch attacks and finally died from a burning black blood jammer.

Seems like a good model to soften up multiple clumped up enemies, where Inflict takes care of the rest. Sorry I have no deeper opinion of him yet, I guess I should get in a fewty games in order to understand if he is really worth 5 points.  

[ringsnake]

Rules question: If the Bandersnatch can make melee attacks while hiding in a shadow, does that mean it can engage from within an enemy model's shadow?

[goth]

Wisps copy tactical actions, so Teddy's Flurry allows the Wisp to swing FOUR times threatening that WP trigger?

[Ludvig]

On 2017-03-31 at 0:05 AM, ringsnake said:

Rules question: If the Bandersnatch can make melee attacks while hiding in a shadow, does that mean it can engage from within an enemy model's shadow?

It doesn't have a  on its attack so it never engages anything.

[Ludvig]

On 2017-03-31 at 8:26 AM, Torsul said:

Yes and no. He can (and needs to) engage during his attack Actions, but not outsides. So no disengaging strikes or similar while buried.

How can it engage? It doesn't have a  on any attack. Besides you don't need to be engaged to take attack actions evenwhen they have  .

[Ergonomic Cat]

On 3/31/2017 at 11:55 AM, goth said:

Wisps copy tactical actions, so Teddy's Flurry allows the Wisp to swing FOUR times threatening that WP trigger?

Yup.

I reallllllly want to make that something scary.  

Best I've got so far is using the Arcane Effigy's Master buff on Collodi, which gets passed to the Wisp, who then gets 4 attacks, each of which can apply Burning +1 or take a card.  

[Starrius]

I have been using the bandersnatch with both lynch and lilith. In my lynch crew it did more work due to teddy. My crew is a more terrifying obey type crew and putting the bandersnatch in the teddy has allowed me to get work done and paralyse models late into a turn.

 

Also I have used the bandersnatch on ffm targets and the 1 damage is from an upgrade so similar results as curses from daw. So stopping point scoring

[Ravenphoenixxx]

How does the Bandersnatch synergize with Terrifying? 

[necroon]

31 minutes ago, Ravenphoenixxx said:

How does the Bandersnatch synergize with Terrifying? 

You can ride a (friendly) model with Terrifying and use the  trigger to attack it and cheat down the Horror duel to fail. 

[Ludvig]

18 hours ago, necroon said:

You can ride a (friendly) model with Terrifying and use the  trigger to attack it and cheat down the Horror duel to fail. 

I love how someone thought: "this game needs more of this kind of interaction, especially in Pandora + sorrow lists!" . I thought the wordings on Sybelle and Huggy were specifically written to limit this kind of thing.

[necroon]

Just now, Ludvig said:

I love how someone thought: "this game needs more of this kind of interaction, especially in Pandora + sorrow lists!" . I thought the wordings on Sybelle and Huggy were to specifically not allow that kind of thing.

I've had a few good hits with the Bandersnatch but with a stat of 5 and the need for a mask (and the built in mask) it hasn't rendered itselff to happening often. The Snatch trigger has been more useful. 

[Ludvig]

2 minutes ago, necroon said:

I've had a few good hits with the Bandersnatch but with a stat of 5 and the need for a mask (and the built in mask) it hasn't rendered itselff to happening often. The Snatch trigger has been more useful. 

I will take comfort in the fact that it's a little trickier to get it off than the snatch. 

[Adran]

13 hours ago, Ludvig said:

I love how someone thought: "this game needs more of this kind of interaction, especially in Pandora + sorrow lists!" . I thought the wordings on Sybelle and Huggy were specifically written to limit this kind of thing.

To be fair, the Wording on Sybelle and Huggy basically say You need to hire a different model with Horror to make this work. The Bandersnatch follows that principle as well. 

[Angelshard]

It seems to me that teddy is a perfect friendly target for shadow lair.

5" reach. Grab can force the opponent to take a terror check you can fail (perhaps even get a smell fear off) or just push the target into a flurry of hugs.

The damage you take from the upgrade is healed by regeneration.

Has anyone tried this combo yet?

[necroon]

10 hours ago, Angelshard said:

It seems to me that teddy is a perfect friendly target for shadow lair.

5" reach. Grab can force the opponent to take a terror check you can fail (perhaps even get a smell fear off) or just push the target into a flurry of hugs.

The damage you take from the upgrade is healed by regeneration.

Has anyone tried this combo yet?

Yeah - Teddy is great for this.

I also like Nekima, Illuminated, and Rougoraoururururur (I have given up on trying to spell this right). 

Depending on the scheme pool Siliruds can be good, as well. 

[santaclaws01]

On 4/7/2017 at 7:06 AM, Angelshard said:

It seems to me that teddy is a perfect friendly target for shadow lair.

5" reach. Grab can force the opponent to take a terror check you can fail (perhaps even get a smell fear off) or just push the target into a flurry of hugs.

The damage you take from the upgrade is healed by regeneration.

Has anyone tried this combo yet?

Pushes don't cause a terror check, you need the Bandersnatch's other trigger.

[Angelshard]

Guess I could have been more precise. 

I meant that grab will always pull an opponent in so teddy can flurry and if you flip or cheat the second mask you can force paralyzed and then get off smell fear if something is close enough to be hit.

[Treehouse]

Just to be precise on how the terror-trick works, in case it's not clear yet:

1. You hide in a friendly, terror-causing model (mind the difference between terror living and terror all)

2. You attack a target and get the trigger to control that target to take an attack action against the model you are hiding in.

3. Your target has to take a terror check to perform said attack. As you are the target's controler for the whole action, you flip for the terror check and can fail on purpose by cheating low enough or just flipping well (well...badly in this case, actually).

4. The target is paralyzed.

Bonus: If it's Teddy whose shadow you're in, he can attack the target because it has then failed a WP check. But only once, as Smell Fear only works once per turn.

Bonus: If you play Lynch and have a terrifying model (can be an Illuminated if you don't want to invest in Teddy) you can do multiple paralyze 'obeys' by using the Bandersnatch and Huggy. Put the Snatch into the Illuminated, trigger for paralyzing attack (see above) and later, use Huggys Heed My Voice to force another model to attack that Illuminated and purposely fail the terror check. It might not come up often, as there are many 'ifs' in that calculation, but it's a nice threat-multiplier

 

As mentioned in another thread, while the paralyze trick is powerful, abusing pounce can be, too. I want to try using a Bandersnatch with a Rougarou.