D's thoughts on campaings

[D_acolyte]

My thoughts setting up to play in a campaigns

First off, I have not done one of these in a while because various thoughts are scrambled in my head and this one just happened to come to the top. Also you will see me mention my father, my father and I have been playing in miniature games for about 15 years and my goal is often to beat him.

I am currently in the last week of a campaign with the group I play with being ran by our local henchmen. I currently have 7 wins out of 9 games and a differential in the mid to high 20s; this does not put me in first as I know that going into this week there where 2 people ahead of me including my father. This is the second campaign I have played in and I have some thoughts about the strategy behind them.

How I See Goals in a Campaigns

I see pickup games, campaigns, and tournaments as test of different skills. Pickup games are a testing ground, I have all these models I can take and now I want to see what works. Campaigns are a refinement of vision and concept, I am starting here and I want to end there is that possible or even going to happen. Tournaments are a trial by fire of your skill and adaptability.

The first goal of any game is to have fun, if you do not have fun then why are you playing.

Now as for more specific goals for a campaign it is about growth and sometimes you might have to make hard choices. I literally had to choose between completing my bounty and getting a master for the next week or winning a game. That is a hard choice and I choose getting my master. Some background on that game, the strategy was one of the odd story ones where you have to give valentines to your enemy but the event was to interact with a thing in the middle of the board to get script. My bounty was to make script on the event and my enemy was the Vic of Blood and Ronins. I had to clear the center to be able to interact which put the 2 outcomes at odds with each other.

The next part of growth is managing your injuries and campaign ratting. For most of this campaign I have kept my rating down at 0 or into the negative. Only this week did I chop a model up that had two injuries. Why do I want it at 0 or less, well I get stones and script equal to the difference in the ratting so in many cases buying more models to help me cover different situation early campaign was better. The next part of this is knowing when to bow out and retreat. I tend not to if I have a few 2 or less but I can understand when people do and try not to fault them for it.

Honesty here, I do get a little disappointed when someone bows out early but it happens (I once killed 4 models of an enemy crew turn 1 in a blind deployment) and generally after a little while I get over it, I mostly just dislike non games even if I win.

Finally I use campaigns to learn or relearn masters as it forces me to become intimately knowledgeable with them. Remember that you must bring your leader always, and once you get a master they are your leader. The size of the game is determined through conversations and sometimes you may say that you will just walk away. It has happened to me, a guy with about 60 script but no master wanted to play at 40, I said 50 as it seemed like a nice mid area but we did not come to an agreement. Got me a glare from someone else when I told my father that I was not getting a game in but meh such is life, if you let that bother you then you have bigger issues.

On to the building blocks.

Campaign arsenals are by their nature incremental changes to make a grander whole. That being said do not worry about buying a model early in the campaign and not using it late campaign, sometimes you have to do what you need too early to survive till late. For instance I started with Toshiro and once I got Asami poor Toshiro is now on the side lines. I may bring him out but he and Asami are both card hogs.

Another issue is failure to plan the pivot point in the list. This is where you want to make a dynamic change in your arsenal and hopefully you can. Let’s look at Toshiro again, if I bought 2 punk zombies in my arsenal and then I want to go with Asami and sideline Toshiro then the punk zombies are a loss. Either I leave them in my arsenal to use on the few cases I want both Toshiro and Asami or I cut them up and get half the script back. Note: Cut ‘em Up For Parts is an optional rule so you might not get that half cost refund.

Alternatively if I went with Collodi, Leveticus or Mie, I might have to spend a significant amount of script to add models that I want/need for that master after I get that master. For instance if I wanted to build into Collodi I might want the fallowing that I need after picking up the master: 3 marionettes, 2 effigies, 3 upgrades and a coryphee. So let’s ball park this a bit 3 one stone upgrades is 6 script, 3 marionettes is another 9 script, 2 effigies is 8 and a coryphee is 7. That is a total of 30 script not including the 10 for the masters. Even if you use the 5 script discount on the coryphee taking it to 25 that most likely 2 weeks’ worth of scripts. The max script is 16 a week but I often only get 12-13.

To offset this I tend to like leaving my option on masters I want open to two and decide on it when it comes up. For instance, I started this campaign with the fallowing models Toshiro, Izamu, Shadow Effigy, an obsidian oni and komainu. As I added on my first few models where a sniper, Chiaki and a tengu. This was a nice set that then let me say Yan Lo or Asami. Though Asami was my first choice I left the option for another master opened till I had to make the plunge.

I have forgotten how long these are and how they tend to change between what I think they will be and how they end up. I will probably do some of these sporadically as things pop up in my mind. Feel free to ask question and comment.

What have other people experience been with there factions and campaigns? I have done one with Ressurs and 10 Thunders.

[Ludvig]

I haven't actually gotten to play in a campaign since my group is very tournament focused.

I thought campaigns wouldn't be very good for learning masters since everything is so far from standard games. Especially since you mentionthe difficulty of hiring proper crews. They seem to be more about creating silly combinations too OP for the real game from what I've heard.

I'd like to hear some more on why you couldn't agree on a game size. Why not just play lower points if your opponent wants to? I believe you are allowed to use masters at lower points than they are usually allowed so it should be a boost for you if you had a master and the other person doesn't. If they get enjoyment out of being curbstomped by a summoning master at 30ss or something, wouldn't that be more fun for you than not getting to play at all? At least you should secure scrip and stuff?

 

[D_acolyte]

3 hours ago, Ludvig said:

I haven't actually gotten to play in a campaign since my group is very tournament focused.

I thought campaigns wouldn't be very good for learning masters since everything is so far from standard games. Especially since you mentionthe difficulty of hiring proper crews. They seem to be more about creating silly combinations too OP for the real game from what I've heard.

So first it is a way to learn the master because you are probably playing them at the earliest in half the games, sometimes sooner depending on the campaign organizer. Next even with adding things such as skills or campaign upgrades you are looking at the master in different ways and evaluating them and the models they take. Example: he would be great if someone else could stop the charge, wait I have a way of doing with this upgrade. Now when you go out of campaign you will be looking at ways to do that in a different way.

I find the more critical thinking I do for a master the more I understand them and the more I play with them the more I can see.

3 hours ago, Ludvig said:

I'd like to hear some more on why you couldn't agree on a game size. Why not just play lower points if your opponent wants to? I believe you are allowed to use masters at lower points than they are usually allowed so it should be a boost for you if you had a master and the other person doesn't. If they get enjoyment out of being curbstomped by a summoning master at 30ss or something, wouldn't that be more fun for you than not getting to play at all?

First off a 65 script game is a normal 50 stone game as a point of reference.

As for 40 script in a master vs non master battle. It favors in my opinion and what my would be opponent expressed the non master side in a lot of ways. Bring a master to the game is 15, even though they are 10 to higher. If you take 1 or 2 upgrades that is say 17. Next you have no catch so if I was using Asami and wanted enough for her basic catch that takes me to 20. There go half your points for the game. If you are a master that relies on stones to do things other than survive this puts you in a bind. Next the chances of having multiple 5 point models is low because you get a 5 script discount on a model every week, even if you have 1 script you will probably take a cost 6 model over a 5. Once again this cuts into what you can bring in the form of bulk. The scenario for that week favored interactions and numbers. That makes the game a master and probably 3 guys. He did offer to go up to 45 but that still does not make a master much more valuable so I said it is week 7 of 8 I do not need a game. Note: your master is your leader and you must play with your leader.

All and all it was not a strategy on there part that I liked, it is no different to me then saying I am at a disadvantage and instead of playing it straight and making even I am going to put you at a disadvantage. He did get in a game vs another person with 6 or 7 models to 4.

With some exceptions I feel a master in less then a 50 script game is at a detriment. I have played a 60 script game with my Toshiro vs Nelly and only lost by 1 point in week 4.

3 hours ago, Ludvig said:

 At least you should secure scrip and stuff?

I was not hurting for script or upgrades. I did arrange a game with him after he got his master, which in our campaign meant that after it was after week 6 he had his avatar.

[enderwiggin]

I ran a no-master list very successfully in the last campaign I played strictly because of the increased cost of running a Master. In addition everyone wanted to bring their avatar, which although free, gives up advantages yet again to the Henchman ran list.

With campaigns giving advantages to certain masters (Viks/Lynch) that absolutely make them worthwhile, for most I would recommend the hardiest Henchman (or most utility-leaning) hench that you can afford.

[Freman]

Rusty Alyce with Enchanted Weapons, Instinctual, From Aether, and Desolate Soul, is kind of a monster late game. Minimum damage 3 at range, ignoring armour and incorporeal, with the ability to summon an Abomination a turn with a 7 and 10, plus the ability to turn an enemy into an Abomination if you flip/cheat/stone for a is pretty darn good. I was building towards Viktoria, but I never used her since Alyce was so much fun.

[LordZombie]

Campaigns are the best. I love the feeling of your game meaning something in the end. I have ran two Shifting Loyalties campaigns so far and both did pretty well. Really want to get another one going again soon. 

[Math Mathonwy]

I dislike campaigns since some additions to models make them completely broken on such a fundamental level that they are essentially impossible to value on the SS (or scrip) scale. And I dislike the way these models distort the game in really weird ways. Now, I suppose that this could be helped by simply everyone in the campaign being on same page either aiming for the most broken stuff ever possible or alternatively avoiding the craziest things but this can be a bit difficult to arrange in practice.

That isn't to say that other people are somehow wrong in liking campaigns, mind! Just that I don't enjoy all that much.

[iamfanboy]

On 4/5/2017 at 3:22 AM, Math Mathonwy said:

I dislike campaigns since some additions to models make them completely broken on such a fundamental level that they are essentially impossible to value on the SS (or scrip) scale. And I dislike the way these models distort the game in really weird ways. Now, I suppose that this could be helped by simply everyone in the campaign being on same page either aiming for the most broken stuff ever possible or alternatively avoiding the craziest things but this can be a bit difficult to arrange in practice.

That isn't to say that other people are somehow wrong in liking campaigns, mind! Just that I don't enjoy all that much.

Campaigns aren't about balanced or fair.

It's about creating a story with your friends and enemies - more than just, "Remember the time I took Pandora and totally whooped your ass 10-3 because you said she was no good at Scheme Marker pools?" but, "Remember that time I threw my Oxfordian Mage with two Injuries into the Pit Fight because I didn't want to lose anyone I actually cared about and then won?"

To be honest I have trouble remembering, two decades later, any specific Warhammer 40k or Battletech or VOIDS or Star Trek game. What I do remember is the first game of Mordheim I played, where my vampire whiffed every roll in the game and got rolled over by filthy witch hunters - then sold to a fighting pit, where I then proceeded to whiff every roll AGAIN except for the regeneration so I kept standing up... and standing up... and standing up... a friend bent some wires into a little set of glasses for him at next week's meeting, and vision corrected he rose to being the monster he should have been. Or the Juve in my Necromunda gang who survived a fatal wound with a head injury that gave her frenzy and made her a melee MONSTER - along with rolling bonus attack, wound, and WS for her upgrades.

As a veteran wargamer, I can answer the arguments about campaign modes diluting competitive edge, or how they get unbalanced, or that it gets weird getting used to models that have new different rules with this:

They remind us that it's a game, and we're playing to have fun with people we have something in common with.

[Math Mathonwy]

46 minutes ago, iamfanboy said:

Campaigns aren't about balanced or fair.

It's about creating a story with your friends and enemies - more than just, "Remember the time I took Pandora and totally whooped your ass 10-3 because you said she was no good at Scheme Marker pools?" but, "Remember that time I threw my Oxfordian Mage with two Injuries into the Pit Fight because I didn't want to lose anyone I actually cared about and then won?"

To be honest I have trouble remembering, two decades later, any specific Warhammer 40k or Battletech or VOIDS or Star Trek game. What I do remember is the first game of Mordheim I played, where my vampire whiffed every roll in the game and got rolled over by filthy witch hunters - then sold to a fighting pit, where I then proceeded to whiff every roll AGAIN except for the regeneration so I kept standing up... and standing up... and standing up... a friend bent some wires into a little set of glasses for him at next week's meeting, and vision corrected he rose to being the monster he should have been. Or the Juve in my Necromunda gang who survived a fatal wound with a head injury that gave her frenzy and made her a melee MONSTER - along with rolling bonus attack, wound, and WS for her upgrades.

As a veteran wargamer, I can answer the arguments about campaign modes diluting competitive edge, or how they get unbalanced, or that it gets weird getting used to models that have new different rules with this:

They remind us that it's a game, and we're playing to have fun with people we have something in common with.

I must admit that I haven't really seen much of a story coming out of the Malifaux campaigns I've been a part of. I play different games if I want that. (Though not Mordheim since I consider it probably the worst minis game system I've ever played and I, stupidly, have played lots of it )

That said, I do understand your point. It's just that I don't play Malifaux for that particular itch.

Though I must note that I consider even tournament Malifaux a game and play it to have fun.  (I know what you meant - just couldn't resist - sorry!) 

[Freman]

One weakness I see in the Malifaux campaign format is that you really just start with characters you play the game with anyway. There isn't the thrill that you got with Mordheim or Necromunda of taking a complete unknown, given shape only by yourself, and then leveling and training them to reach their full potential. If there was a way of creating your own characters in Malifaux campaigns that would make it better in my opinion.

[iamfanboy]

7 hours ago, Freman said:

One weakness I see in the Malifaux campaign format is that you really just start with characters you play the game with anyway. There isn't the thrill that you got with Mordheim or Necromunda of taking a complete unknown, given shape only by yourself, and then leveling and training them to reach their full potential. If there was a way of creating your own characters in Malifaux campaigns that would make it better in my opinion.

Yeah, I feel that too. It's not like it'd be TOO hard to make a system for whipping up your own Henchman who eventually ascends to Master - start with a certain base for all the stats, and have each bonus (Nimble? Hard to Kill? Def6? Ml6 with +1/+1/+2 for an attack?) cost a certain amount of Soulstones, up to a maximum of 13. On second thought, it might be pretty hard.

[Freman]

You can start your crew with one Henchman, one Enforcer and an unlimited number of minions (up to the stone cap).

Henchmen and Enforcers basically start with stats of 5Def 5Wp 8Wd Wk5 Cg6 Ht2, cost 8 stones, and has a cache of 4 stones (which are the only stones they can take as a cache, unlike regular games any stones you don't spend on your crew are wasted), Henchman can take two upgrades three skills and use soulstones, Enforcers can take one upgrade two skills and not use soulstones (like in the regular game). Minions start with 4Def 4Wp 4Wd Wk5 Ch6 Ht2, cost 4 stones and can gain one skill. When first forming your team you can give them stat adjustments at a certain price, but only to a maximum of +1 in any stat and initially only to three stats, and all stats except wounds have a hard limit of 7 (wounds are 14). Gremlins trade one point of Ht for one point on another stat. Henchmen can take one skill (things like Nimble, Casting Expert, Melee Expert, Shooting Expert, Flurry, Rapid Fire, nothing overpowered but preferably ones that you would pick to represent the character of your Henchman). Your flat Ml/Sh/Ca attack abilities are 5 for Henchmen and Enforcers, 4 for minions, they can be improved with experience but again only up to a hard limit of 7. Every three stat points a model gains, however they're spread across the stat card, increases the value of that model by one soul stone for the purpose of choosing crews (trying to keep things a little balanced). Because Gremlins exchange a point of Ht they can gain three stat points without paying the extra stone initially. Reckless cannot be purchased on a starting crew, it's just too powerful.

Obviously you choose a faction and that determines the models you can take as allies. Each crew can take one ally, which is a model hired out of the soul stones in its cache (stones earned at the end of a battle) which can be an Enforcer or Minion from that faction. You hire the ally, paying its cost equivalent in soul stones, for one battle. They don't stay, and if you want to use them again you have to pay for them again (similar to the mercenary rules in Mordheim). Obviously, since you should have no spare stones after making your initial crew you cannot hire an ally in your first confrontation. Faction also somewhat affects the kinds of territory you have access to, and obviously the upgrades you can purchase.

You choose weapons for your units. A pistol and a melee weapon is free. A brace of pistols (which gives you both a ranged and melee attack, and positive flips) is one stone. A rifle is free, and a rifle and melee weapon is one stone. Paired melee weapons (like Neverborn claws) give positive flips in melee and are free. Pretty much everything is 1/2/3 damage at this point, and only changes when you're able to buy upgrades, skills, or new weapons. Ca attacks can be used at both range and in melee and cost one stone.

Every battle that your characters take part in allows them to add one stat point to their statistics sheet or their Sh/Ml/Ca value. Obviously if they're on the sidelines none of their abilities are going to improve, and just to avoid people jamming all their bonuses onto one stat, you cannot increase each stat sequentially, you could not, for example, fight two battles and put both stat points on your Sh value (obviously this ceases to apply if they've already reached their limit in their other stats). They can, instead of gaining a stat point, decide to attach a suit to their Df or Wp stats or to their Sh/Ml/Ca ability. That has a limit of one suit for Def or WP, or two for Sh/Ml/Ca. This isn't so useful to start with, but as you learn skills that require triggers it can be handy to have a trigger built in. A sniper with a rifle might, for example, gain the critical strike trigger, and then having two  built into his Sh attack could prove very useful, allowing him, if you have a high  in hand, to hit a 4/5/6 track even with his basic weapon. A counter-attack ability that requires a  on your defensive flip will be far more reliable if it's built in. A wizard whose gains the ability to blast on a  or critical strike on a  would benefit greatly from having both those options automatically available to them. Every three gains increases the value of the model by one stone, that includes suits.

After battles you earn an amount of soul stones derived from your victory conditions, you always get one stone for each model that survived the battle (play carefully) plus one stone for every point you got in your schemes and stones, and one stone for winning the battle. Potentially you could come out of the battle with 15+ stones if you play cannily, so you won't need to scrimp and save much.

Shopping is similar to that in Shifting Loyalties, where you have tables that you flip against to see what you can buy, skills which can be allocated to a model, triggers which can be added to their Sh/Ml/Ca abilities, equipment that can be switched around from game to game. There are also weapon shops where you can go, but that's pretty basic, you pick the type (melee, paired melee, pistol, brace of pistol, rifle) flip once, 1-5 is a weapon no different to the one you start with, 6-10 is a 2/3/4 weapon of equivalent type, 11-13 is a 3/4/5 weapon of equivalent type, flip a Joker, red or black, and the weapon is a 3/4/5 type that also ignores incorporeal and armour. You then pay for the weapon if you have the funds. A single weapon of the type is 3 stones for the mid range (obviously you don't need to buy a basic weapon) or five for the top end, or seven for the Joker, or doubled for a brace ie if you were shopping for a brace of pistols and flipped a Joker you'd have to pay 14 stones for weapons that can be used at both range and in melee, give you positives to flip, with a 3/4/5 damage track, that also ignores armour and incorporeal. That is pretty tasty, but it is also a chunk of change. The model you give the weapons to also increases in value for future usage, one stone if it gains a 3/4/5 damage track, and two stones if it gets Joker weapons.

That's a rough outline of how I'd do it. I've tried to make it so that while yes, your characters do increase in power, they also cost more so you have to play larger games and an opponent with less experience is going to outnumber you.

[-Loki-]

If they did multipart plastic kits for every faction, that sort of campaign system would be fantastic.

[Freman]

The other thing I like about campaigns is the way it encourages you not to charge in with guns blazing. You don't want your unit killed or injured so you play the game more as you would in real life, sneaking around doing schemes, not trading shots unless you absolutely have to.

[Math Mathonwy]

On 4/22/2017 at 11:56 AM, -Loki- said:

If they did multipart plastic kits for every faction, that sort of campaign system would be fantastic.

They are doing something like that (the campaign system and multipart kits) for Eden (a French small-scale character-driven skirmish game). It's an intriguing idea.

On 4/23/2017 at 7:48 AM, Freman said:

The other thing I like about campaigns is the way it encourages you not to charge in with guns blazing. You don't want your unit killed or injured so you play the game more as you would in real life, sneaking around doing schemes, not trading shots unless you absolutely have to.

This is a good point, actually! 

[D_acolyte]

On ‎4‎/‎23‎/‎2017 at 0:48 AM, Freman said:

The other thing I like about campaigns is the way it encourages you not to charge in with guns blazing. You don't want your unit killed or injured so you play the game more as you would in real life, sneaking around doing schemes, not trading shots unless you absolutely have to.

I often go in gun blazing but I also have to keep some 1 and 2 in my hand to avoid injures. This means it am taxing another reasons in a different way to make sure models continue to perform. The group I was in did a campaign and then a 2 day, 5 game tournament at the end where you played with your arsenal and every game was like a campaign game and you could buy at the beginning of each day. It was fun and I bought models to use in first game of day two just so I could save my powerful models for the last game.