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Rate our masters Outcast edition


Azrrael

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So, stealing a resser thread that exploded. 

 

What is our ranking on effectiveness of our masters?

in GG2017 I think its been shaping into this.

1. Hamelin: just amazing right now honestly can prob do it all.

2. Jack daw: covers the bases of slightly more killy pools although he lost a lot of glory from 2016

3. Viks: kill kill kill

4. Tara: new henchman Nothing beast being fast bombing into your opponent with the scion, being a stone user, and reduction from dead of winter mae her crew go from lackluster to "GAME OVER MAN GAME OVER" real quick.

5. Levi: levi is okay kind of the jack of all trades he isn't ever really bad per say just not as suited anymore at a lot of pools where other masters do better.

6. Von Schill: going to be a real need to counter pick someone here and know they wont be bringing armor ignoring tech to field him with reasonable success.

7. Parker: Better then Miskai?

8. Misaki: Way better in TT then outcasts her upgrades and eratta changes are really cool and help a ton but not having the terrocotta to guarantee you have access to the right upgrade for the job is a real nonstarter for taking her in outcasts. 

 

What did everybody think of my ratings? This is purely based off win% ignoring preference to personal objections. Where do you disagree with me don't go easy on me either I love a good argument. Please feel free to rank your own with reasoning I'd love to see it. 

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I don't think it's as easy to compare Outcast masters as it is Resurrectionists because they are so different.

Hamelin is definitely flexible, but he can have a lot of balls in the air.

Jack Daw is solid on offence, and brings a fun themed crew.

Leveticus doesn't hit as hard as he used to, but he is still a fairly good offensive summoner.

Viktoria is as she has always been, deadly but fragile.

Parker is a good all-rounder, but in my opinion works best as crew support, he seems to favour a less elite build than our other Masters. I have started the game with 9 models on the board and didn't find that a problem.

Von Schill is tough and hits pretty well, like Parker he's a crew master although he's more focused on Freikorps where Parker works fairly well with anyone.

Tara can do a lot of things herself (especially with 6AP a turn) but I think her best use is to maximize one of the commodities in the game, AP. She can make a lot of your models fast, increasing your AP commodity by almost 50% over the course of a game. 

Misaki is not as good in Outcasts as she is in Ten Thunders, lacking Recalled Training and Sensei Yu, but she is very mobile and her Lost Blossom infiltrators bring some interesting options, like Jorogumo, to Outcasts. She is probably the "least good" of the Outcast masters, but that doesn't make her bad.

Wrath is a Henchman with an extra AP from his upgrade so... he's bad.

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I think Hamelin is not so good in GG.

If he is playing the rat game he hasn't enough play time... as an Obey master with other guys do the job he is still good, but his rat engine does not work in tournaments.

Leve is more flexible because of his hiring pool.

My ranking:

Leve

Jack/Hamelin

Viks (if it is killing time)

Tara (6 AP is always good)

Parker

Misaki (better in 10Thunder) / Schill (can't rate him, because no experience)

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10 minutes ago, JimPanse said:

I think Hamelin is not so good in GG.

If he is playing the rat game he hasn't enough play time... as an Obey master with other guys do the job he is still good, but his rat engine does not work in tournaments.

I don`t get that statement - I think his denial game was never better than now, so what`s his problem?

The 2h time limit?

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The whole "rat engine wastes time" argument is a myth, "this rat activates, you go" takes about 2 seconds to say out loud.

 

Otherwise, Hamelin is good and versatile.

Anti-charge aura, obeys and the possibility of scary nukes make him a strong contender. Plus for 5 Guilders you get the best sculpt in the game, period.

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11 minutes ago, Seadhna said:

The whole "rat engine wastes time" argument is a myth, "this rat activates, you go" takes about 2 seconds to say out loud.

 

Otherwise, Hamelin is good and versatile.

Anti-charge aura, obeys and the possibility of scary nukes make him a strong contender. Plus for 5 Guilders you get the best sculpt in the game, period.

rat engine makes for a boring game that breaks the alternate-activations interaction between players of a malifaux game - and that isn't a myth.

My own rating would be:

Leveticus (masters that can do the jack-of-all-trades thing are always powerful and effective)

Hamelin (no denying its effectiveness, no matter my own distaste for the approach)

Viks (can warp games in the right pool)

Parker/Jack Daw (excellent options)

Von Schill (a good all-rounder, but less options than those above him)

Tara (better post-errata, but still not surpassing the others)

Misaki (not terrible at all, but better in 10T)

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1 hour ago, Seadhna said:

The whole "rat engine wastes time" argument is a myth, "this rat activates, you go" takes about 2 seconds to say out loud.

It is for the Hamelin player. But the enemy needs to think in advance, more than against other master... and that is a "waste of time" in my opinion resp. my experience.

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As far as ratings go, here's my experience (I'm not the best Malifaux player out there, but:

1. Jack Daw. He just does everything, really. The only thing he struggles at is Interference against summoners, but otherwise his options allow him to effectively accomplish any scheme pool.

2. Leve. Same as Daw, but mostly due to his hiring pool. Offensive summon with Desolate Soul is a great way to overwhelm your opponent; Extra activations with Waifs allow for a good setup Turn 1/2. The only thing working against him is FfM being suited.

3. Hamelin. He does everything as well, albeit he's weaker on the "murder everything in sight" front. Getting pseudo-free Rat Catchers is what breaks him in GG2017: don't mind me is too powerful an ability on a Wd 8 minion.

4. Parker. He's like a stronger Schill, but a weaker Hamelin. If your opponent can't murder his crew, he will dominate. Another bonus is that he basically works with any models in-faction and has one of the better starter boxes. His weakness is lack of proper defensive triggers and low damage output, but Malifaux is great in that killing stuff isn't necessary to suceed.

5. Tara. Easy to learn, forgives bad positioning, but pretty straightforward in Outcasts. She can do fun stuff, but when your opponent learns, he will counterplay beast-bombs easily.

Sadly, she will crumble vs aggressive melee.

6. Viks/Misaki. They kill things well, but lack versatility. Haven't played them mostly due to my personal preferences, but Jack and Leve can do pretty much the same. Viks are Tier 1 if your strategy is to table your opponent, otherwise I'd stick with Jack.

7. Von Schill. Unless you take Freikorps, he's a henchman with Swift. If you take Freikorps, he's just plain boring to play.

 

YMMV, obviously, but that's how I think and play.

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30 minutes ago, Seadhna said:

7. Von Schill. Unless you take Freikorps, he's a henchman with Swift. If you take Freikorps, he's just plain boring to play.

I assume that 4. is Parker?!

Boring or not to one side (I quite like playing him!) I think the big problem with von Schill is that now we are in GG2017 the number of scheme pools where he can get work done is even smaller than it was before. With an naturally low model count, moderate killy power, and no access to interact/marker shennanigans and pushes the Freikorps crew just can't keep up with most schemes. GG2017 especially seems to favour pushes, places, free interacts, incidental scheme markers etc. Just being good at not dying isn't that great if it isn't getting you VP... There ARE scheme pools where he works, but the number of times I have wanted to play him and I've looked at the scheme pool and realised that there is nothing the crew can do without extreme difficulty is high.

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1 hour ago, Seadhna said:

Yup, Parker is No.4

 

He's tough to play well, but extremely rewarding.

That is exactly my experience as well. I find that unless I am thinking about where I want Parker to be NEXT turn, and what upgrades he will need etc., I find that there are activations where he does nothing at all - he's too far from the action, or has to waste AP getting the upgrade that he needs etc. When he is in the right place, though, it often feels like he has 6AP and the entire turn can change trajectory after his activation.

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Stick up is my most used upgrade just because it effectively makes him Nimble with the cost of a 4 to get it back on him again.

Admittedly my turns with him generally look like, "discard to walk, push push push, reattach Stick up" I did do a "shoot, discard Black Market for damage, attach Highwayman hitting trigger for second 0, command Ronin to attack, some other stuff" one turn, it was like getting 5AP worth of work for the price of 3.

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CAVEAT: What follows is all my personal opinion, based on what has worked for me in tournaments in a number of metas (from Minnesota to New Mexico, but none of the bigger scenes)


The most powerful tricks in the game, especially in 2017, are positioning based. Therefore I would say that our top masters are the ones that can best break tempo or jump the positioning game. Jack Daw is my lovely, my pride and joy, the only master that I've soloed a tournament with and come out on top. Hamelin's denial game works well in 2017, but his positioning tricks are understandably limited. Tara rounds out the "top-tier" for me, she has tons of personal AP and her positioning tricks are some of the strongest in the game; now that her Void theme is substantially more viable thanks to the new Dead of Winter and the Nothing Beast upgrade I need to learn to play her better and she'll be a master to beat.

"Tier two" is Parker - solid damage, some positioning tricks, resource manipulation, great scheme manipulation. His only real drawback is that a lot of his tricks depend on hitting TNs that need a 7-8 so, and his effectiveness depends on your ability to accurately predict where the action is going to be next turn. Disguised Misaki is an incredible disruption master now, without significant ranged pressure she will not go down (Deadly Dance, Disguised, great stats, and any kind of decent positioning) and the increased TN on her Downburst action makes it easier to break up synergies, push models out of scoring position, etc. as well as triggering into her Thunder attack. Sure, her Stalking Bisenot build is better with Sensei Yu around, but she has a very valid alternate play in Outcasts now. Levi fits in here thanks to his offensive summoning and wide board presence but I've never liked playing him much.

The rest are "tier three." I've never lost a fair game to the Viks (there was one where I was literally falling asleep at the table, but...). They and Von Schill are decidedly one dimensional. Their plays are strong, sure, but they're almost as easy to project as most Guild masters.

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