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Lonewolf240

Black Joker

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So my buddy and I were last night were playing Molly vs. Tara (outcast) and it was a very good game he ended up winning 6 to 4. While I know I certainly could have played a tighter game, it feels the black joker was theme of our game. In turn one he Slowed Molly and she Black Jokered the Summon, which threw a wrench in turn one for me. Frustrating but you roll with it. The start of turn 2 we are flipping for initiative and he flips a black joker, I though sweet I get to go first. My opponent empathetically pointed out he can still stone to re-flip the initiative. Which is in the rule book. Now while I understand he needs to spend a soulstone, this was very frustrating as just a few moments ago I black Joked and could do absolutely nothing, and would have gladly spent a stone to re-flip if able. Now I would not be posting if this was the end of it, after all bad things happen but,  he ended up flipping the black joker for intiative on turn three and four. All three time using a stone and ended up winning initiative.

Is it just me or should flipping the black joker mean you are out of luck or that the flip was not fated? what are your thoughts?

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I think maybe stones against the black joker shouldn't work.  Otherwise you could logically say that a master or henchman can burn a stone anytime the black joker shows up.  Though I've never had it happen during initiative, so what I'm taking away from your post is less about your intended topic of debate, and more about "what are the odds that he black joker'd initiative 3 turns in a row?"  I might just be an untrustworthy jerk, but that's one of those things I'd be questioning people on.  Considering the situation is literally the best time for your own black joker to come out.  Means you can't flip it for the turn, and you can negate the effects with a stone.

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bertmac   

I think it's one of those situations which is so rare that it's not worth worrying about you won't see this happen again for the next 100 games! Plus he is spending a stone every time so not able to use it to prevent damage or add a suit for something. Him playing Tara makes it seem worse as when he reflips he gets two cards!

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1 hour ago, Four_N_Six said:

Considering the situation is literally the best time for your own black joker to come out.

I prefer it coming out when a Stuffed Piglet goes pop! :P 

 

 

 

...

Sorry.

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@Four_N_Six We played it the way he said and looked it up later and sure enough if either Joker comes up player can use a soulstone. Which brings up another point with flipping the red joker normally making it so you can not cheat, but with a soulstone you can try. I would agree that initiative would be one of the best times for it to show up, but I think the best is if you do it during randomization. As most of the time you are willing to hit your own person.

@bertmac I agree niche at best and Tara most certainly compounds it. I guess it is the idea just having a standard for the red and black joker (i.e. flipping a joker means you can not cheat no mater the flip) I feel that if any joker is flipped no player can cheat as this action is "fated" to succeed or fail. It makes them easy to explain, symbolic, with out changing the game in any significant way.

@Math Mathonwy and then there is Gremlins! :D

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solkan   
3 hours ago, Lonewolf240 said:

@Four_N_Six We played it the way he said and looked it up later and sure enough if either Joker comes up player can use a soulstone. Which brings up another point with flipping the red joker normally making it so you can not cheat, but with a soulstone you can try. I would agree that initiative would be one of the best times for it to show up, but I think the best is if you do it during randomization. As most of the time you are willing to hit your own person.

@bertmac I agree niche at best and Tara most certainly compounds it. I guess it is the idea just having a standard for the red and black joker (i.e. flipping a joker means you can not cheat no mater the flip) I feel that if any joker is flipped no player can cheat as this action is "fated" to succeed or fail. It makes them easy to explain, symbolic, with out changing the game in any significant way.

Is this the point where someone needs to point out that reflipping the card isn't "cheating" the flip?

There are one or two models that actually can chest initiative flips, and they are subject to the usual joker rulers on the initiative flip.

Edit:. For the record, the Doppleganger's Ill Omens ability:

Quote

Ill Omens: After flipping Initiative and before either Crew spends a Soulstone to reflip Initiative, this model's Crew may Cheat its Initiative flip.

So there's a difference.

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I honestly feel both Jokers were a mistake. At least the can/must Always Pick status of them. There's a fair amount of chance already in the game but most of the time you can calculate that into your strategies. The jokers are just too uncontrollable/accountable an element of chance.

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wizuriel   
15 minutes ago, Tokapondora said:

I honestly feel both Jokers were a mistake. At least the can/must Always Pick status of them. There's a fair amount of chance already in the game but most of the time you can calculate that into your strategies. The jokers are just too uncontrollable/accountable an element of chance.

sometimes bad things just happen. The jokers represent that fate is fickle 

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Saduhem   
20 minutes ago, Tokapondora said:

I honestly feel both Jokers were a mistake. At least the can/must Always Pick status of them. There's a fair amount of chance already in the game but most of the time you can calculate that into your strategies. The jokers are just too uncontrollable/accountable an element of chance.

I actually love those "what are the odds!" moments. The idea that 100 arrows raining from the sky won't hurt that colossus over the hill... but there is that tiny crack.. and maybe... just maybe...

It also helps the game move away from a plain math exercise.

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Durza   

I had a game where i flipped the red joker and my opponent flipped the black for initiative 3 turns in a row. 

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