Mei Feng, our enemy

[FrumFrim]

Hi again!

The last week my gremlins were destroyed by Mei Feng, she has a fog that give to her allies a negative flip againts shots.

She broke my strategy...she pis on my francoise, burt and somer. She and his cheerleaders guarded the stash perfectly.

I havent got mancha roja, neither the emisary...and on wednesday we repeat again...how could i beat her?

Maybe mah tucket? I have a Somer crew, Mah, Zipp, Zoraida, Ophelia, effigy, Burt, Grace, Slops...

Could anyone giveme a piece of advice?

Thank you and sorry for my English!

 

[codingCaptor]

Francoise and Burt are both good melee units, especially with a little bit of support from Lenny.   Remember, Lenny reduces damage from ALL sources, including dumb luck!    And Lenny is also a good melee unit as well.   Gracie is also a good choice, as her ram trigger lets her hit for 4/6/8.    Considering Lenny gives out rams, that works wonders for you!

Also, if you bring Somer's upgrade Encouragement, you can have your units take a damage to gain a plus flip, allowing you to ignore her aura altogether.

The crew I'd recommend is as follows

• Somer
  • Encouragement
  • Dirty Cheater
  • Do Over
• Francois Lacroix
  • Stilts
• Lenny
  • I'll love it and pet it
• Burt Jebsen
  • Dirty Cheater
• Gracie
  • Saddle
• Slop Hauler
• 2x Stuffed Piglets

This gives you 8 models (So you probably won't be out-activated)  But gives you a Very Elite VERY killy crew.    If Gracie walks up to her opponent (and then gives herself reactivate) she can bring Lenny with her.   This means that Lenny's protection bubble will be up the field, allowing the rest of your melee units to move/charge up anywhere 3" from him.  Standing next to Lenny, your crew hits as follows: Gracie hits for 4/6/8, Fanc hits for 4/6/10, Lenny hits 3/4/5, and Burt hits 4/5/6 (With crit strike... he can hit even higher with extra rams from Somer or played from hand) Slop Haulers to keep your guys healed up (With both Gracie and Burt being hard to kill, you want to save them for healing one of those two when they get down to the line.)   Punch your opponent until they are dead.

Note:  You will have a lot of problems running schemes with this crew.  Trading Francois and Lenny for Trixibell and some Bayou Gremlins (and swapping encouragement for Family Tree)  Will give you much better battlefield control (to deny your opponent schemes) as well as give you the opportunity to score more schemes.    Adjust as needed to win the game.

But No one out-kills a gremlins crew.   NO ONE.

[Four_N_Six]

I ate her alive (almost) with Zipp.  My opponent made the assumption that my pianos were on the First Mate, so he fired her right up his butt and killed him, but at that point she was Zipp's plaything.  Reposition her to where I want and there wasn't much left to do in retaliation.

[FrumFrim]

Thank you!! Aaaaaand zoraida????? Could be a good choice?? I could proxy the emisary and punch in her noise with him...obey and obey and obey...

[EpicWaffle]

3 hours ago, FrumFrim said:

Thank you!! Aaaaaand zoraida????? Could be a good choice?? I could proxy the emisary and punch in her noise with him...obey and obey and obey...

Nope! One unit with recalled training or two and she's doomed.

If your opponent focus on not shooting, than just don't  keep in mind that is not going to work and elabourate another strategy  if you'd like to share what strategies/schemes you had in the game you explained, it would be a pleasure to maybe give a second opinion on it  

[FrumFrim]

Guard the stash

Dig their graves

Claim jump

Leave your mark

Hunting party

Mark of death

And close deployment!!!

 

Thanks again!! And brew master? Whisky golem, trixie , 1 akaname, wesley, 3shinobis...maybe?

[EpicWaffle]

To start off, close deployment doesn't mean you have to deploy as closest as possible to them, especially if you're playing a summoner.

It's generally better to positionated further away. In a scenario like this I would either go for Somer, picking leave your mark and claim jump (your opponent will generally be busy in the center, leaving the flanks uncovered), or Zipp with dig their graves and one depending on the opposing crew.  I think your problem here is not the crew you had, rather the way you're searching a solution! If a master put you through hard times, focus on understanding the way it works and how you can play around him, rather than jumping to a crew or another  especially the brewmaster, who might get things done against a new player, but it's so hard to control and actually have an impact on the game. Somer is definetly one of the strongest master in the game, sii he's not for sure the problem  Instead look at Mei rent, and what gave you problems that game: was it the positioning, that led to an easy assault from Mei charge? Was the scheme selection? With your number advantage, even using a skeeter a turn to simply shut down any trigger and abuse the 7df to slow down Mei could be a good idea! Or to stick in the back and simply use bayous in waves to accomplish schemes! There are plenty of way to find a solution  

[FrumFrim]

Ok!! You change the way that i looking for the solution....ok...i discard brew...i will use again Somer...and try to slow down a Mei feng with the skeeters. My gremlins take the middle and try to complete leave your mark and claim jump?

I promise take pictures!

But....i take grace and burt? Or again francoise and burt?lenny?

My oponent use railminers...that are hardbounds to kill...and a big guy with a machinegun....

 

 

[EpicWaffle]

A samurai  all tough models, but really slow, and a trixibelle can keep 3 of those away and slowed with the lure (if you can, give the crow with a skeeter so that it trigger automatically).

Try to beat them with speed and tactic, rather than with brute force! Also, a reckless Burt/ francois can kill the quite easily if the charge them (care tho, be sure to have the cards to do so, cause they can retaliate quite heavily, so maybe soften them a bit with bayous and Somer)

with frank, remember that you're not forced to use all the times dumb luck, and that his melee is better then his gun.

i wouldn't recommend to use Lenny, he's slow and cost too much. Gracie on the other hand could work but remember that you aim to score points, not to kill anything as a prime target. I had games that went 10/0 where I killed 1 model, period.

[FrumFrim]

Trixibelle cann't because the fog affects the cast too... i have a negative flip in the lure at 4" of Mei Feng...

And a suicide squad? Its close deployment then...why dont use mah tucket, whisky golem, mancha roja, francoise plus saddle or iron skeeter?and try to explote Mei Feng in the first turn?

 

[EpicWaffle]

4 hours ago, FrumFrim said:

Trixibelle cann't because the fog affects the cast too... i have a negative flip in the lure at 4" of Mei Feng...

And a suicide squad? Its close deployment then...why dont use mah tucket, whisky golem, mancha roja, francoise plus saddle or iron skeeter?and try to explote Mei Feng in the first turn?

 

you can, no problem in that (somer wong and zipp are better choices than mah tho, but it's up to what you like), i was just saying that brute force isn't always the solution. Keep in mind that, as much as in this game capabilities will almost everytime time surpass luck, when you focus your strategy on duels, you're playing with probabilities and a good dose of luck  the hint i can give you is to read carefully through the cards of the enemy crew/faction, examine your masters and models pool (the less master you focus on, the better you'll get, even tho is funnier to switch everytime) and than try to find the best way to achive and deny points during the 5 turns you'll be playing. In short terms, be adaptable and learn how match ups go in different situations  sometimes you'll have to ram into the enemy lines, sometimes you'll have to be more witty then your opponent  

[FrumFrim]

Finally...i read everything and i think that with this list im going to lose but i want blood:

50 SS Gremlins Crew
Mah Tucket + 7 Pool
 - Out For Blood (2)
 - Know The Terrain (1)
The Little Lass (4)
 - Lead Lined Apron (0)
Mancha Roja (10)
Francois LaCroix (7)
 - Stilts (1)
 - Dirty Cheater (1)
Gracie (10)
 - Saddle (1)
Whiskey Golem (10)
 - Barrel Up (0)

 

I will try to charge first...and kill mei feng and the healer...

And thank you for your wisdom!!!

[FrumFrim]

Finally...i lose...mei feng get redirection like upgrade....and i couldnt kill her.

 

Was very very close, maybe in the second turn if he hadnt a red joker in the iniciative flip i could had killed her with mah or mancha roja...was close too much close...

[Nikodemus]

Important thing with Misdirection is understanding its limitations.

It's a DF trigger, so attacking WP will bypass it. Shutting down triggers will also help (Somer). You can also ignore the effect if you discard two cards, so go for quality hits over quantity. Focus+Attack is better than Attack+Attack if you want to preserve your hand.

And as always with this game, don't waste AP killing it if you don't have to. I've won games because my opponents spent too much AP to remove hard-to-remove models.

 

[spooky_squirrel]

On 3/23/2017 at 1:38 AM, Nikodemus said:

And as always with this game, don't waste AP killing it if you don't have to. I've won games because my opponents spent too much AP to remove hard-to-remove models.

This right here should be in bold 64-pt font. Basic Malifaux answer to how do I win is: use your activations and AP to score victory points. Every AP that is spent not earning, denying, or supporting a VP is an AP being thrown away.

If you don't have to kill Mei Feng and whatever stuff she keeps in her bubble, don't. I'm saying this as a Mei Feng player who likes to have things like Envy or a Samurai in Mei Feng's bubble, shooting out and being largely immune to ranged/magic retaliation. If I think you've got effective stuff to unravel my bubble, I'll have Mei Feng Vent Steam twice, which will shut out anything that doesn't get baked-in positives or an additional AP they can spend on focusing. This forces you to come in, where there's a number of bad things that will happen (as you've seen going in against her with Gremlins).

You don't have to kill her, or even kill the things shooting at you. Cover's not as effective against things that can give themselves positives (like the Samurai has baked in or Envy with its (0) to focus, or even Katanaka Snipers that get more out of a single focused shot than two unfocused ones), but LOS-blocking is still LOS-blocking. These things I've mentioned cannot shoot you if they cannot see you. Your stuff is largely Ht 1, which means there are a lot more places you can potentially hide while you complete your schemes than other crews I might play this kind of list into.

If the Strategy calls for being near a marker in the middle (like Extraction), you'll have to deal with this, but if it involves spreading out between two markers (Guard the Stash) or table quarters (Interference) you can work around her. She might still get all of her Strategy VP if you avoid entirely, but that's only 4/10. Take a look at the schemes and do what you can to score yours and deny a even just single point off of theirs. Whether the game ends 5-4 or 10-9, you still win.

If the Strategy and Scheme pool calls for killing, then that's what you have to do. Mei Feng's typically harder to kill than her crew (12 wounds, defensive trigger, upgrades, soulstone use), so focus on her crew. Unless I (the Mei Feng) player get the right trigger suit (relying on Vapormancy), every AP I spend killing chaff units is an AP I'm not using to get into position and Vent Steam. If you're playing a summoner like Somer or Ulix and stuff chaff units or exploding units into my bubble of steam, I'm not able to go after the things that matter (and in the case of exploding piglets, I may end up hurting myself in the process). Just keep your summoner back far enough where if I go after him with Mei Feng, the rest of my crew becomes exposed and vulnerable. Also, on the subject of Vapormancy: don't bunch up unless you've got Merris nearby and relatively safe from being targeted. Use your chaff units to eat my AP while your quality stuff waits for a solid opening. When you get a proper opening, that's when you send in Francois or Mancha and start depleting Mei Feng's crew. If you aren't ignoring/bypassing things like Hard to Kill, don't worry too much about trying to get massive damage spikes onto things that have it; Rail Workers will still take two AP to kill and Kang will probably take 3+AP, even from Francois.

Speaking of Kang, if you know your opponent's playing Mei Feng and have reason to suspect that they'll bring Kang, you might want to leave the Constructs at home and take things that can complete your schemes for you or get you more activations/utility within your crew. Kang has a passive aura on his card that gives positives on attack and damage flips against undead and constructs. Handing out poison is great if you are building your crew to capitalize on it, otherwise it's just another tick of damage that could potentially end up on your own, more fragile, models if your opponent turns the Whiskey Golem to scrap in the middle of your own crew.

[Math Mathonwy]

On 3/24/2017 at 8:44 PM, spooky_squirrel said:

This right here should be in bold 64-pt font. Basic Malifaux answer to how do I win is: use your activations and AP to score victory points. Every AP that is spent not earning, denying, or supporting a VP is an AP being thrown away.

I agree with the general gist of this and consider it an important message and good advice (especially in the context of this specific thread!) but I wish to note that killing enemies is, most of the time, denying enemy VP as dead models don't score VP.

[daniello_s]

11 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

I agree with the general gist of this and consider it an important message and good advice (especially in the context of this specific thread!) but I wish to note that killing enemies is, most of the time, denying enemy VP as dead models don't score VP.

Unless the is FFM in the scheme pool

[spooky_squirrel]

21 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

I agree with the general gist of this and consider it an important message and good advice (especially in the context of this specific thread!) but I wish to note that killing enemies is, most of the time, denying enemy VP as dead models don't score VP.

Absolutely, provided you kill the things that are scoring. I've often made the mistake of putting too many AP into trying to kill something because ...reasons?... and that has ended up costing me many games. To @daniello_s's remark: sometimes you're going to give your opponent full points on FFM. It's similar to running a summoner into Hunting Party. You just have to make sure that the trade-off is worth while. For instance, your gremlins' killing spree stops your opponent from scoring a point or two on their other scheme and the strategy, that makes up for giving them full points on FFM.

 

There is one more bit of useful advice I can pass along regarding overcoming Mei Feng's Vent Steam cloud: drain the Mei Feng player's hand. Sure, you're at one or more negatives and that stops you from cheating, but your opponent cannot cheat if they don't have a hand. It's still not exactly equal footing, but it helps to force them (people like me) to deal with whatever is flipped, instead of shaping the outcome more in our own favor. Even before my hand is empty: every card I'm having to cheat to guarantee that you don't land a lucky shot from relatively cheap shooters is one less card I have available to cheat on my own attacks and abilities.
If I'm running Mei Feng as a support piece that's creating a denial zone, I'm giving some board control and momentum to you. At some point, she'll need to stop being a denial piece and actually work to score VP (canny scheme picking on my opponent's side can get them 6VP to the 4VP I'm getting camping in a bubble). If I get a solid hand early and the board position supports it, I can break out and start killing things that are supporting/scheme running. If I don't have a solid hand, the board position won't matter as much because the shifting turn becomes a lot more risky. The longer it takes me to break out of that crawling turtle of a denial bubble, the less time I have to score on the schemes (assume that the Mei Feng player is playing into strategies that encourage being in a bubble). Every card I have to cheat on defense to stop Trixie's lure (for example) is one less card I have for cheating Rail Walk or various attack actions (faction dependent).

[Adran]

On 24/03/2017 at 6:44 PM, spooky_squirrel said:

Your stuff is largely Ht 1, which means there are a lot more places you can potentially hide while you complete your schemes than other crews I might play this kind of list into.

 

I read this line alot, and I honestly don't think its true. I can not think of a single situation where a Ht 1 model can hide from a Samura (or any Ht 2 model with a gun)i that a Ht2 model could not hide in. 

Back to the original question. If Mei feng is venting, then you have 2 options. Firstly look at going for models that aren't protected by her steam (thi will include you using Ml attacks against model in the steam). In a game like guard the stash, its quite hard for him to use vent steam to protect both stash markers.

Secondly consider using Focus and soulstones to ignore the negatives. If Trixie can focus twice and spend 1 ss she can gremlin lure Mei on a straight flip even if Mei spent all 3 of her ap on venting, and you can then move the aura away from a relevant location, removign her protection and allowign you to treat his crew as you originally planned. 

[spooky_squirrel]

5 hours ago, Adran said:

I read this line alot, and I honestly don't think its true. I can not think of a single situation where a Ht 1 model can hide from a Samura (or any Ht 2 model with a gun)i that a Ht2 model could not hide in.

The more I think about this, the more I realize that terrain won't help a Ht 1 model hide from models on a terrain better than a Ht 2. The way the rule is structured (if one model is taller than the intervening terrain, they can see over it) makes any small advantage fade.

5 hours ago, Adran said:

Back to the original question. If Mei feng is venting, then you have 2 options. Firstly look at going for models that aren't protected by her steam (thi will include you using Ml attacks against model in the steam). In a game like guard the stash, its quite hard for him to use vent steam to protect both stash markers.

Secondly consider using Focus and soulstones to ignore the negatives. If Trixie can focus twice and spend 1 ss she can gremlin lure Mei on a straight flip even if Mei spent all 3 of her ap on venting, and you can then move the aura away from a relevant location, removign her protection and allowign you to treat his crew as you originally planned. 

This can help a great deal, especially if you're out-activating your opponent enough where Mei Feng's already moved up with most of her crew by the time you send her back. The key here is to have your abusive shooters/casters hold their activation as long as possible so that the high return targets are in range when you get the aura to drop. If your opponent spends a soulstone to try and put you on the negative, then you're stuck with what you flip--but that's a soulstone they don't have for later, like when Francois dives in.

 

As a Mei Feng player, I can tell you that it's really hard sometimes to make a decision on how my things will activate if my opponent's crew projects enough shooting/casting threat. Early activation and minimal moves with Mei Feng limit my ability to have her where I need her to be for later activations, and at some point, my crew has to move beyond her bubble to get work done. Even if I creep the bubble forward there will be things that end up outside of it--because I still have to score VP to win. Making it to Turn 7 without losing a single model to casting or shooting doesn't matter if I haven't scored many points because I've barely made it to the center line. Some strategy/scheme pools may score (interference, for instance), but others will leave me trying to figure out how to make up for the differential my opponent can get (6 VP from schemes alone because Mei Feng is playing too defensively to stop those schemes).

 

One of the things that works reasonably well for people who are building up experience in my meta (they don't yet know enough to read an opponent's crew and opponent) is to pick the schemes that require the least amount of cooperation from your opponent. Playing Frame for Murder into an opponent that's going to condition/bury/push/obey your stuff out of the way is going to be frustrating. Similarly, playing a condition-setting scheme against a crew that's going to nuke its own stuff or disappear in other ways, or is otherwise immune to conditions is going to leave you at a 7VP max game, making your work a whole lot harder.