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Collodi sharing Defensive with his minions - when does it end?


Ergonomic Cat

Question

I saw a couple discussions around, but none that were specifically focused on Defensive, and none with a conclusive answer.

Collodi, with the Fated Upgrade, takes an action to go Defensive.  All his minions and puppets within 6" gain Defensive +1.

When does Defensive end on his minions?  I see three interpretations:

1. It ends on Collodi's next activation, because the action says "The model gains defensive until its next activation." Its refers to Collodi.  

2. It ends on each minion's activation, because the its refers to the model that has defensive.

3. Defensive is just a condition that gives +flips.  Since the only thing that sets an end time is the action, and the minions didn't take the action, there is no set end time on Defensive, so it follows standard "Conditions end at the end of the turn unless otherwise noted" rule.

I'm leaning towards #3.

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I sat down and tried to write a defense of the rules for option #3, threw up, and the only thing I can do in good faith is go with Option #2--it has to be the same duration in order to be the same Condition being gained.

The specification of the ability on the Fated upgrade:

Quote

Follow My Lead: Once per Turn, when this model receives a Condition from one of its own Actions, all friendly Puppets and Minions within :pulse6 may gain the same Condition.

As far as the duration goes, there are five Conditions or abilities which cause models to gain "the same Condition" as another model:  Lelu and Lilitu's abilities, the two abilities on the Fated Upgrade, and the Voodoo Doll's Sewn Fate Condition.

Activate Collodi at the start of the turn and take (1) Defensive Stance.  Now, try to explain to someone that "the same Condition" means that Collodi gains Defensive +1 with one duration and the other models gain Defensive +1 with a different duration.  How is that the same Condition that Collodi gained?

The duration for Defensive gained through the Defensive Stance Action is until the model with the Condition's next Activation.

 

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Different applications of the same Condition can have different durations, such as presented in the example for Q.37 of the FAQ. (Not extrapolating from there per se, but it does clarify a distinction between Conditions and the applications of those Conditions, which include a duration for which the Condition applies.)

In this case, every model is gaining the same Condition (Defensive +1). Collodi's Defensive Condition ends at the start of his next Activation, because that's what is specified in its application from Defensive Stance. However, the Follow My Lead Ability doesn't specify an end point for the Conditions it applies. Conditions with unspecified durations always end at the end of the Turn.

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The thing is, Defensive specifically doesn't call out a duration.  Defensive says: "....if the model does so, it gains the following Condition until the start of its next activation a number of times equal to the AP spend on this action: "Defensive +1: This model gains +flips to all Def duels.""

The condition never gets a duration.  Defensive doesn't say "This model gains +flips to all Def duels until the start of its next activation."  It probably *should* say that, I'm guessing.  But it doesn't.  

Collodi just passes the condition.  And if it ends at the start of Collodi's next activation, you can basically get Defensive for 2 turns if you do Collodi first one turn and last another.  That seems a bit powerful.

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12 hours ago, Ergonomic Cat said:

Duration is not mentioned at all.  Fated says "Once per turn, when this model receives a Condition from one of its own Actions, all friendly Puppets and Minions within 6" pulse may gain the same condition."

Exactly what I mean. It doesn't specify the duration so the duration is until end of turn.

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3 hours ago, Ergonomic Cat said:

The thing is, Defensive specifically doesn't call out a duration.  Defensive says: "....if the model does so, it gains the following Condition until the start of its next activation a number of times equal to the AP spend on this action: "Defensive +1: This model gains +flips to all Def duels.""

The condition never gets a duration.  Defensive doesn't say "This model gains +flips to all Def duels until the start of its next activation."  It probably *should* say that, I'm guessing.  But it doesn't.  

Collodi just passes the condition.  And if it ends at the start of Collodi's next activation, you can basically get Defensive for 2 turns if you do Collodi first one turn and last another.  That seems a bit powerful.

Bold and italics for emphasis.


As for the question at hand, I can see it going towards either two or three. Conditions and duration aren't intrinsically linked. If two models have Defensive they both have the same condition even if one has and end of turn end time and the other has beginning of your next turn end time.

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Basic rules say that conditions last until the end of turn unless another duration is specified. The other models got their defnesive from an ability thatdoes not lista duration so their defensive always ends at the end of the current turn.

 

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25 minutes ago, solkan said:

According to the FAQ, the duration of a Condition is part of the Condition, even though it's outside of the Condition text.

In the example, that's two different Defensive Conditions, each with different end points.  When they combine, the resulting Condition has an end point from the latest one.

Thus, "the same Condition" has to mean that it has the same end point as well as the same other variables.

 

What does that have to do with this? That's an answer for stacking defensive, not an answer for how long defensive applied outside of defensive stance works.

The duration in that exanple comes from the action defensice stance and the guardian's action that both have specific timing points clearly defined. Ebd of turn is for anything that doesn't list a duration. An analogy in this case would be that you gain defensive from Collodi and then take the defensive action yourself, now you have defensive +2 until your next activation.

Quote

Small rulebook p 61: "Unless otherwise specified, all Conditions are removed from a model at the end of the Turn."

 

Does Collodi's ability specify that the condition has the same duration as his condition or just it just give the model the "same" condition he gains meaning same name much like the "same" action can be found on multiple models in one crew?

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On 3/19/2017 at 2:31 AM, Ludvig said:

What does that have to do with this? That's an answer for stacking defensive, not an answer for how long defensive applied outside of defensive stance works.

The duration in that exanple comes from the action defensice stance and the guardian's action that both have specific timing points clearly defined. Ebd of turn is for anything that doesn't list a duration. An analogy in this case would be that you gain defensive from Collodi and then take the defensive action yourself, now you have defensive +2 until your next activation.

 

Does Collodi's ability specify that the condition has the same duration as his condition or just it just give the model the "same" condition he gains meaning same name much like the "same" action can be found on multiple models in one crew?

Duration is not mentioned at all.  Fated says "Once per turn, when this model receives a Condition from one of its own Actions, all friendly Puppets and Minions within 6" pulse may gain the same condition."

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31 minutes ago, Angelshard said:

So people seem towards two or three. But the consensus still seem unclear to me?

I might just be slow but is the conclusion end of turn? 

That's what we've been playing with.

People are 100% convinced it is both #2 and #3. ;)  Everyone agrees that #1 is right out, though!

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I like #3 because otherwise it's pretty garbage for the AP that is used.

 

#1 is right out because of the reasons listed + it leads to ever-stacking defensive stances if you use someone like Lazarus to invoke the Defensive measure after Collodi's activated and the model in question goes defensive first (so the overlapping condition timing would happen). Since that is silly and abusive, I go with #2 as the fairest.

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29 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

Basic rules say that conditions last until the end of turn unless another duration is specified. The other models got their defnesive from an ability thatdoes not lista duration so their defensive always ends at the end of the current turn.

You're quoting text which is irrelevant, because another duration is being specified: the Condition is specified as being the same as the applied Condition.

According to the FAQ, the duration of a Condition is part of the Condition, even though it's outside of the Condition text.

Quote

37) If a model gains a stackable Condition from two different sources each with a different timing for when the Condition ends, when does the Condition end? For example, if a model takes the Defensive Stance Action to gain Defensive +1 until the start of its next Activation, but then gains the Defensive Condition from the Guardian which lasts until the start of the Guardian’s Activation, when does the Condition end? 

The most recent application of a stackable Condition determines its end point. So in the example above, the model would gain Defensive +1 which ends at the start of its next Activation. Then the model gains an additional Defensive +2 from the Guardian, which stacks to Defensive +3 and ends when the Guardian starts its next Activation or is removed from play. The end time on the Defensive gained from the Guardian is used because that was the most recent application of the Condition.

In the example, that's two different Defensive Conditions, each with different end points.  When they combine, the resulting Condition has an end point from the latest one.

Thus, "the same Condition" has to mean that it has the same end point as well as the same other variables.

 

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