Advice starting a summoning master: sandeep or ramos

[saxcloud]

I am asking advice as I wish as I finish the 15 member of a dreamer crew , start a new crew of arcanist, I like the summoning type, and I am courious about how to start a 50 ss crew . I thought about Ramos box, electrical creation box and a spider box ( the small ones). Dunno about how to start a Sandeep crew, probably Sandeep box and one or two gamin box, but i am asking you for advice as I do not know much about Sandeep aside I like its look and that he summon his totem and the various gamin... Be aware I play for fun, so I am not lookin for the fatal unbeatable list:) 

just for wich pieces are much thematic and useful with the masters , I COULD go  to tournament, but I look at them as a day where I could play few games without my wife grumbling at me  

[spooky_squirrel]

Sandeep's theme is Academics, with Gamin being his summons. So for him to flesh out his theme, you might want to look at Oxfordian Mages, Fire Gamin, Ice Gamin, and Wind Gamin (at the very least, he already comes with Poison Gamin; these are the Gamin one might expect to see with an elemental summoner and they give Kudra with personal upgrade bonuses and provide a number of options for Banasuva's copying ability). Metal Gamin can find a home in both Sandeep and Ramos in a pinch.

If you're looking for an interesting theme hiring pool to paint, I would lean towards Sandeep, as there is more variety in subthemes. Ramos with spider summoning will end up with a more uniform kind of look-and-feel unless you customize paint jobs on spiders to force more obvious differences--which is a bonus if you're looking for a uniform hiring pool.

[saxcloud]

For the spiders, i thought of magnetize them. Well, i'm lookin for an all round experience, from play to painting. 

So a good start for sandeep can Be crew box , oxfordian mages and metal gamin? Just to have few pieces to toys with....

[spooky_squirrel]

You might find more use in the Wind Gamin instead of the Metal if you're leaning in the Sandeep direction.

[Alexander Tsikarev]

After the Dreamer, Sandeep isnt that much of a summoner: he's limited to 3 models, although they all come into play full health.

This is my list for thematic Sandeep, as i'm now a bit limited on models:

Sandeep

+Unaligned Sage, Arcane Reservoir, one of summoning upgrades

3 Oxfordian Mages with all upgrades

Kudra + Imbued Energies

Amina Naidu + Warding Runes

or Captain + Blessing + Runes

Shastar Vidiya Guard + Imbued Energies

You need one of M&SU henchmen to give your mages  on Wp duels, so there's a choice of Amina, who's also Academic, Captain, Joss or Firestarter.

As for the gamins, you'll need one of each gamins using them as a toolbox. Poison gamin is mostly used because he's tougher and his ability to push 3'' after attack is cool to be copied with Banasuva.

I find that you mostly dont need the Kudra natural upgrade and runes on her because she tends to be far from the crew hunting opponent's key pieces.

I dont know how Amina works, I usually get the job done without her.

For more summoning you might get Mech rider.

[Mxbedlam]

I think the MOST important thing about summoners is to not get so caught up in the summoning that you miss opportunities. Ramos and Sandeep have pretty powerful attacks that can definitely do some work when the need arises. if you are careful with your spiders you don't even have to summon with Ramos after turn 3. Generally by the end of the game he's picking off models that have already taken some damage and securing points. 

[retnab]

That's true as well with Sandeep who has a ton of useful abilities.  Sometimes it's more useful to have The Sight Beyond up instead of summoning in another Gamin.

Another thing to keep in mind with Sandeep are the mandatory summoning upgrades.  Really consider when you're summoning who you want to not be able to move, who you want to not be able to cheat, and who you want to not be able to attack.  Mixing up who will get what upgrade when you're summoning can lead to a pretty bad turn.

[Mxbedlam]

Yup. Had an opponent a few weeks ago who was convinced Banasuva could still do disengaging strikes even when he wasn't able to do attacks thanks to the upgrade. The turn did not go as planned

[spooky_squirrel]

10 minutes ago, Mrbedlam said:

Yup. Had an opponent a few weeks ago who was convinced Banasuva could still do disengaging strikes even when he wasn't able to do attacks thanks to the upgrade. The turn did not go as planned

Wot?

I would recommend to that player that they put the no-attacking upgrade on something like an Ice Gamin or Poison Gamin. I used to think Metal Gamin were the go-to for that upgrade, until I realized attack actions include Magnetism--and if I'm summoning in a Metal Gamin, it's because it has more to contribute to the table than just being a brick. Ice Gamin and Poison Gamin have more wounds (but not as much defensive tech), but they have other things to contribute to the fight (like Bite of Winter and Banasuva copying Frozen Heart from the Ice Gamin) that don't require having attack actions.

If they want to tarpit with Banasuva, Commands the Earth is the route to go. Copy some nasty death trigger from the anchor Gamin (like that Poison Gamin with CtW that took two wounds when Banasuva came into play), and if you don't have enough things tied up, Beacon Sandeep's lure to pull in another "friend".

[Peppi]

Sandeep in our meta is winning all the last tournaments, seems really overpowered togheter with Reva...

The question is this one: is Ramos actually old and a second choice as Arcanist Summoner? Is it a viable choice for a new player?

Seems that some first wave masters are actually too old in mechanic to be good in GG2017 and more in general with the evolution of tha game (for example Seamus vs Reva and Sandeep vs Ramos, are two examples.

What do you think? thanks

[retnab]

Ramos is in a great place, he's one of my top win rate Masters.  The fact that you can make 3 Steam Arachnids with 1 AP is really, really good and leaves him free to shoot or heal more than other summoners can afford with the same results.  Ramos gives lots of so-so activations and passive auras, Sandeep gives few, restricted activations and active abilities.  They're quite different in how they get things done, and while Sandeep is more flexible Ramos is still the king of what he does in Arcanists.

[Fictor]

16 hours ago, Peppi said:

Seems that some first wave masters are actually too old in mechanic to be good in GG2017 and more in general with the evolution of tha game (for example Seamus vs Reva and Sandeep vs Ramos, are two examples.

What do you think? thanks

Completly agree with that, I'm unhappy to see that every time I play old masters are harder than new masters, the diference is so huge and in tournaments I doesn't think play another thing than Sandeep with power diference and last cuddle on Colette.

[Joel]

32 minutes ago, Fictor said:

Completly agree with that, I'm unhappy to see that every time I play old masters are harder than new masters, the diference is so huge and in tournaments I doesn't think play another thing than Sandeep with power diference and last cuddle on Colette.

I totally disagree with this.  Wave 1 masters are still totally viable and competitive at all levels of the game.  Just because players are enjoying using new toys as new masters are on general release should not be confused with a lack of power on the part of the older masters.

[mythicFOX]

17 hours ago, Peppi said:

The question is this one: is Ramos actually old and a second choice as Arcanist Summoner? Is it a viable choice for a new player?

Seems that some first wave masters are actually too old in mechanic to be good in GG2017 and more in general with the evolution of tha game (for example Seamus vs Reva and Sandeep vs Ramos, are two examples.

What do you think? thanks

There are a few things to unpack there;

Is Ramos viable for a new player?  Yes, totally.  In many respects he's a very good choice for a newer player as his play style is relatively linear and he's forgiving; very hard to kill, shut down, high activation count etc.

Power Level of Book one masters; If anything time has solidified the power level of masters rather then diminished them. The most potent masters in book one (Nicodem / Ramos / Viks etc) are still potent and have only been enhanced by having more options open to them over time.   The weaker masters however have broadly only seen models printed as catch up mechanics, mostly just weighing down their core crew with choices needed to make them function as intended, rather than enhance their power.

Book 4;  Sandeep is a very strong master, as are Reva and Nellie. Part of this is 'newness', players take time to learn to play against new stuff so it always looks more powerful as it catches people off guard.  Once players adapt the shine comes off them a fair bit.  In the past Arcanists have always suffered from being very dependent on their own sub-factions to work. Arguably the strongest thing about Sandeep is that his theme doesn't 'get in the way' of crew construction the way our other masters often do.

[Peppi]

8 hours ago, mythicFOX said:

Part of this is 'newness', players take time to learn to play against new stuff so it always looks more powerful as it catches people off guard.  Once players adapt the shine comes off them a fair bit.  In the past Arcanists have always suffered from being very dependent on their own sub-factions to work. Arguably the strongest thing about Sandeep is that his theme doesn't 'get in the way' of crew construction the way our other masters often do.

@mythicFOX

I agree on this.

I love the masters of the first book, the masters of many many stories in the malifaux fluff...but I have to say that still, my feeling is that are little "old" actually. Is true, probably is not correct speaking about their competitiveness in tournament, but more in the way they play. The new masters seems to me very well rounded and very nice to play with, high interacting with schemes, more interesting. This one is the initial feeling. Here in my meta if before it was rare to play in all the 3 games with the same master, actually is very common to see Reva/Reva/Reva or Sandeep/Sandeep/Sandeep or Zipp/Zipp/Zipp. Is not only a matter of new toys, or to learn to play the new master...is more "I like it so much, is complete, is well rounded, works so nice with schemes and strategies, why change a master if I can change just some models ?". I don't say is wrong...but...

@saxcloud, Ramos is a very good option for you, in my opinion very thematic and easy to collect, try both if you can. Proxy them or play in Vassal with a friend. 

[dancater]

From an Arcanist perspective (as this is their forum) I DO NOT think that the Book 1 masters are becoming under powered.

Ramos is still the best summoner in the game for AP efficiency and his summons are simply an excellent and versatile model.

Marcus is one of those flexible, durable beat stick masters and with his huge, and constantly increasing, Beasts hire pool he is never short of a theme model to fill special need slot 'x'.

Mei Feng is a solid fast all round model, just durable enough and with deceptive hitting power.  She if anything has benefited from GG2017 as it slightly emphasizes the faster masters.

Arguably the 'weakest' Book 1 master is Raspy and she is still simple, strong and has a great theme crew, made all the better with Ice Dancers sealing a real crew weakness.  Her biggest vulnerability is really that she has some poor matches in terms of opponents (Sonnia is an example) and strat/schemes (she really struggles in super mobile pools, especially ones which need the master to move). However in the right game and against most opponent crews she can still do well. 

The Book 2 masters are probably the presumptive weakest set for Arcanists, and I say that with the statement that they are all competitive at least.

Colette following the cuddle is a little less simple, perhaps a shade 'weaker' but remains one of the strongest masters in the game for any scheme marker heavy pool (so yeah a lot of GG2017).

Ironsides was cuddled slightly, she is solid as both her buffed Df trigger and some M&SU theme crew improvements have helped her.  Still not an Arcanist master in the top half.

Kaeris is probably the 'weakest' master available to Arcanist's she is fast and reasonably durable but does not have a wow factor anywhere and is not the all rounder several others (Marcus, Sandeep) can be.  For speed I think Mei is as good and Ramos wins the durability race, for schemes Colette... so poor Kaeris suffers as the 'at best second choice for power' in the faction.  But she is playable and fun.  The other place she suffers is a lack of theme integration.

Which brings us to the 8th man, topical conversation point Sandeep.  He's good, flexible and the all rounder, non theme locked tool box which Kaeris isn't.  This tool box, do everything well and nothing quite exceptionally is what the Arcanist faction needed and got.

Want summons, check.  Want theme integration, can do. Speed, yep I can do that - Wind Gamin help. Ranged, yep especially with a Ox Mage battery.  Got some smash face action available.  Has surprising durability. Can scheme. Will grind out wins. So no argument Sandeep is top tier but I think his dominance in meta's is more because people are both playing him a lot and opponents are learning in the Sandeep school of hard knocks and education via the end of a giant magical club/mace thing.  Once folks have a good handle on him he'll drift down and the old reliable crews will see more table time again.

[spooky_squirrel]

14 hours ago, dancater said:

From an Arcanist perspective (as this is their forum) I DO NOT think that the Book 1 masters are becoming under powered.

Ramos is still the best summoner in the game for AP efficiency and his summons are simply an excellent and versatile model.

[...]

Want summons, check.  Want theme integration, can do. Speed, yep I can do that - Wind Gamin help. Ranged, yep especially with a Ox Mage battery.  Got some smash face action available.  Has surprising durability. Can scheme. Will grind out wins. So no argument Sandeep is top tier but I think his dominance in meta's is more because people are both playing him a lot and opponents are learning in the Sandeep school of hard knocks and education via the end of a giant magical club/mace thing.  Once folks have a good handle on him he'll drift down and the old reliable crews will see more table time again.

I second the remarks on Ramos. No other master can put three significant models on the table with 1AP and cheating with stones. Sure, it's steep to do, but it needs to be. In corner or standard deployment, Ramos will be getting two turns of summoning (if you set up your factory during hiring: Joss and Electrical Creation are a solid approach to this), which leaves the reasonable expectation of 4 spiders being on the table. If you start with an amazing hand, you might have 6 spiders on the table after your first Turn 2 activation. All of these spiders are hard to knock down, especially with Df 6 and positives from Ramos and Regeneration from a Bleeding Edge Tech caddie (or just one-off the healing factor with Johan's Open Revolt; why not both?), and should they get knocked down, you have scrap to summon more of them (or use his Combat Mechanic upgrade to keep key elements like Joss kicking harder, longer).

The wall of spiders is effective at stopping non-ranged killy crews just by jamming up charge lanes and creating areas that the killy stuff cannot get to on their own terms. I've kept Nekima tied up with a knot of spiders for the first 3-4 turns of a game, leaving that dangerous model unable to hunt down Hank while Hank went about butchering scheme runners and support elements.

 

Which brings me to the grinding out wins comment. Sandeep's attrition game comes from dropping in summons that must be dealt with while other attack vectors slingshot in, keeping opponents on the reactive. Once the initial shock and awe wears off and counters become more prevalent, he'll lose the attrition game that it looks like he has now. Ramos is scheming attrition S-tier. If your opponent isn't bringing Taelor or something else that will feed off of your summoning, they will have a lot of work ahead of them to try and stop you from getting your schemes and strategy completed (barring any mistakes made by the Ramos player). The sheer volume of spiders he can crank out off of scrap markers puts him in a class by himself. Even if they are bringing Taelor, you can do things to mitigate her influence, including baiting her into Hank's threat range if she activated early to put up Welcome to Malifaux or using Johan to clear that condition from her before activating Ramos for more summons.

 

So when comparing the two,

• Ramos is well-settled in what he can do and how opponents might try countering him. Even when countered during the hiring and scheme selection phases, he can still get a lot of work done. This is what makes him top-notch. Where his weakness lies is the fact that he cannot hire beaters/tanks to replace any that are killed. To plan for this, make sure that your work will be getting done by the things that he can replace.
• Sandeep is still relatively new, though my regional meta has his Commands play is roughly settled for this region. I say roughly, because hard counters to it have not been regularly played yet. I strongly suspect that Taelor will be a solid take against Sandeep because she doesn't have to burn her own AP to deal with summoned models (which works around the attrition game Sandeep is counting on) and that she won't have to play forward (unlike when dealing with Ramos) to maximize herself as a counter. Anna is also good for slowing down the push/place shenanigans that Sandeep and company use to get up field. Since counters to him are in development and testing by players within various regional metas, it'll take some more time (read: a high enough number of games to smooth out the 'luck' factor of players) for Sandeep to fully settle.

 

Scrolling up to check OP's context for the question: either of these masters is a tournament tier master, and either one asks a hard question of your opponent. Ramos' crew forms the recruitment poster for M&SU/Arcanist operators and is archetypal for the faction image. Sandeep's Academic crew is archetypal for the faction spirit (outlaw spellcasters) and offers more complex layers of play.

[Fictor]

Day-to-day my consideration on Ramos decreases, he is really squishy, yes, have Armor 2 but he's similar to IceG, low Def and only 10Wd, a bit low IMO for a Maser who the crew needs, yes I know he can use stones.

His upgrades Under pressure and Field generator that cost 4ss are printed in front of Nico card, and Nico prevents slow on the models...

If you want put Arachnids early you doesn't go heal with Combat mechanic, and if you wait to activate him the Arachnids doesn't sobreactivate before your hitters.

And for the end, you MUST kill one of your models if want summon on the first turn, and yes, you can summon 3 Arachnids with 1AP, but you MUST spend stones even with the RJ for 3 Arachnids, he need a lot of stones to works well.

For the moment Sandeep have a tons of reason to be better than him.

[Trixter]

14 hours ago, spooky_squirrel said:

Ramos' crew forms the recruitment poster for M&SU/Arcanist operators and is archetypal for the faction image. Sandeep's Academic crew is archetypal for the faction spirit (outlaw spellcasters) and offers more complex layers of play.

The truth in every word!

[saxcloud]

So, basically , how can i collect them? 

Ramos box+spider box+ electric creation

or Sandeep box, two box of gamin, oxfordian mages 

 

are both a good start?

[Blackraw]

19 minutes ago, saxcloud said:

So, basically , how can i collect them? 

Ramos box+spider box+ electric creation

or Sandeep box, two box of gamin, oxfordian mages 

 

are both a good start?

Whilst Ramos list you quoted is solid pick to arm a 35ss crew,

I would say Sandeep with that set of models will feel quite limited in playstyle.

You suggested $66 spent over Sandeep box.

I would suggest you add $11 more and get:

Troubleshooters $45
Wind gamin $21
Johan $11

The rationale is:

Tony box > Mages, since you get extra master for the future and great (though pricey) henchman.

I would not buy 2 boxes of gamin on start. There are more urgent things you may need. Wind is good for scheme run and nasty pushes.

Johan is just must-have model as I believe. Too good for his 7SS, especially for Arcanists.

Captain can top up your crew on start (pushes for mages, M&SU henchman for  WP duels to mages, M&SU fighter nearby for  Attack to Johan, better target for warding runes than Kudra). 

You get many mobility with this (pushes from mages/gamins/captain + synergy (mages-captain-johan and academic synergies) + 2 relic hummers +3 furious casting.

Of course you do not get awesome respond to any opponent/schemes, but without buying half of arcanist models, this looks a) fun and b ) educative.

Later on you would want much more models from different themes (M&SU, Frozen Heart, Showgirls and even Beasts). But at least wind/captain/oxmages/johan may find their ways to other crews, whilst I doubt that Kudra/poison will.

 

[Trixter]

7 hours ago, saxcloud said:

Ramos box+spider box+ electric creation

I never used upgrade for ECreation summoning so I advice get mobile toolkit instead (for now at least). A bit less mobility in 1st turn but +1 soulstone.