Pandora & Collodi into Guild

[yool1981]

I am a NB player and I know Lilith, Lynch and Zoraida quite well. I am playing very regularly against shooting crews, especially from the Guild (and more especially Sonnia :).

Usually I take Lilith and the world is bright. However, I would like to go out of my comfort zone and try new stuff, especially Pandora and Collodi.

If you had to tailor your crews with Pandora and Collodi to be able to play into Guild in general and Sonnia in particular, which models would you deem useful?

I am not looking for a silver bullet here, just looking to have a game without losing half my crews to blasts or shooting the first 2 rounds :p.

PS: Do not worry about terrain, we play with the right amount to have cover against the blasts.

[Nical]

I like to take Collodi(Fated) with Changelings, Trappers, Lazarus and / or Emissary.

1. Activate Collodi and Get Focused+1 and spread it to Changelings and Trappers.

2. Use My Will many time to Changelings to Get Focused / Move / Attack

3. Activate Changelings and Copy Trapper's Clockwork Rifle and / or Get Focused.

4. If Focused used for Clockwork Rifle, its RNG increased to 28" and It's Sh Become 4++ or 5++....

5. So you can shoot very long range shots now as your opponents did. 

6. If your opponent's models come close, ready to copy Lazarus' Grenade Launcher.

 

[yool1981]

This is interesting, although I have been disappointed by the Lazarus + Changeling combo so far. Sh 4 makes the appearance of blasts unlikely.

As to the test with the trappers, I will give it a try.

[Ludvig]

35 minutes ago, yool1981 said:

This is interesting, although I have been disappointed by the Lazarus + Changeling combo so far. Sh 4 makes the appearance of blasts unlikely.

As to the test with the trappers, I will give it a try.

Sonnia is only df 4 and likes to be pushed into place by Francisco so a trapper + changeling gunline withfocus could hurt her badly with Collodi.

The vanilla Pandora crew suffers against Sonnia due to incorporeal models that she can hit and kill easily but if you do a more well rounded Pandy crew it shouldn't be too much of a problem.

[Nical]

I agree Sh 4 is not good. So I usually use copied shot low Df / High Wound models first and give some to Changeling.

And Collodi + Lazarus combo itself is good. Collodi has useful 1AP actions and Lazarus can copy them by Assimilate.

 

[yool1981]

What you both suggested is an attack approach.

Do you think that a defensive approach can be taken, especially for centric strategies such as Guard the Stash and Extraction?

I was thinking about something like this:

Collodi (5SS Cache) - Fated, Threads of fate, Aether connection

Marionnette

Marionnette

Marionnette

Stitched together

Illuminated

Illuminated

Bunraku

Bunraku

Brutal Effigy

The idea is to distribute Armour to the crew with a centre composed of the Illuminated in the front The Stitched together in the middle / Collodi & Effigy in the rear + Marionnettes providing pushes. The amount of Armour and healing will very likely make things difficult for the opponent while the cover provided by the Stitched together will hopefully hinder the blast generation by lowering the attack results.

Should I need to increase the damage output, Collodi could provide Focused instead of Armour.

I think I stand a chance against Sonnia but Perdita will likely be very difficult to beat.

I also do not have anything to score show of force (but I have stuff able to kill what would score). The killing being done by minions, I will provide at worst 2 VP for Frame for Murder.

Quote

Sonnia is only df 4 and likes to be pushed into place by Francisco so a trapper + changeling gunline withfocus could hurt her badly with Collodi.

I see Sonnia a lot with El Mayor on which makes her quite difficult to shoot for Changelings.

I will give it a try although it will be difficult to get my hands on trappers (I wish Wyrd had realeased a box).

 

 

[santaclaws01]

2 hours ago, yool1981 said:

What you both suggested is an attack approach.

Do you think that a defensive approach can be taken, especially for centric strategies such as Guard the Stash and Extraction?

I was thinking about something like this:

Collodi (5SS Cache) - Fated, Threads of fate, Aether connection

Marionnette

Marionnette

Marionnette

Stitched together

Illuminated

Illuminated

Bunraku

Bunraku

Brutal Effigy

The idea is to distribute Armour to the crew with a centre composed of the Illuminated in the front The Stitched together in the middle / Collodi & Effigy in the rear + Marionnettes providing pushes. The amount of Armour and healing will very likely make things difficult for the opponent while the cover provided by the Stitched together will hopefully hinder the blast generation by lowering the attack results.

Should I need to increase the damage output, Collodi could provide Focused instead of Armour.

I think I stand a chance against Sonnia but Perdita will likely be very difficult to beat.

I also do not have anything to score show of force (but I have stuff able to kill what would score). The killing being done by minions, I will provide at worst 2 VP for Frame for Murder.

I see Sonnia a lot with El Mayor on which makes her quite difficult to shoot for Changelings.

I will give it a try although it will be difficult to get my hands on trappers (I wish Wyrd had realeased a box).

 

 

Arcane is a must if you think you're going against Sonnia. Condition removal can dull her fangs. I would also drop the Bunraku for another Stitched and pick up a Black Blood Shaman. 

[Ludvig]

Your illuminated will be prime targets for Sonnia. Their wp 6 gives her an automatic  on her attack which means soft cover will be negated so while the armour will decrease the damage you are looking at a bunch of blasts covering a huge chunk of your crew. Even with the armour her three blasts for 3 damage each will cause you some trouble. On the first shot she can also stone to put burning on everything that took damage which negates any cover from her later attacks. If you can put the illuminated in hard cover she will be forced to focus which will mean less attacks and a high likelyhood of your models surviving.

[Treehouse]

You could play Paralyze Pandora (I agree that Box Pandora is risky if you know Sonnia is likely to be dropped).

 

[Nical]

Simply, some covers and armor buffs may not be enough to save our minions from Sonnia and Samael. 

For example, they have Visions of Flame, so their attacks can ignore cover against burning model. 

 

[santaclaws01]

13 hours ago, Nical said:

Simply, some covers and armor buffs may not be enough to save our minions from Sonnia and Samael. 

For example, they have Visions of Flame, so their attacks can ignore cover against burning model. 

 

Pretty sure Visions of Flame just allows them to ignore LoS, not cover.

[Nical]

2 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

Pretty sure Visions of Flame just allows them to ignore LoS, not cover.

https://www.wyrd-games.net/sonnia-criid

 

[yool1981]

So I tested the list on Satruday against Sonnia.

The strategy was Guard the Stash (Flank deployment) and the schemes were Claim Jump, Dig their Graves, Eliminate the Leadership, Hidden trap, Leave your mark.

I took Claim Jum & Dig their Graves.

Overall, the list performed quite well. I lost 6-10, mostly because I was denied access to a stash marker through 2 flame walls (Malifaux child) during the larger part of the game. There was a bottleneck I badly anticipated. This was my first game ever with Collodi so I made a few activation order mistakes. I also had a very bad hand on turn 3 when things got ugly, which did not help.

The Illuminated performed quite correctly despite Sonnia's bonus against their Wp. Hard cover, Armour +2 and healing go a long way.

The Bunraku were extremely efficient. The little buggers are becoming a stapple in my lists I think. They remove key models from key places and they actually hit quite hard. The Armour and the Df trigger help them being very durable. They are good scheme runner interceptors and, with Wk 6 can actually be  very decent scheme runners themselves.

The stitched together did nothing during the game but that kind of thing happens, I'll give it another try.

The Marionnettes were awesome, I love pushes. The effigy was mew but I guess I underused it.

I still do not know if fast wouldn't have been better than armour in this scenario. I may switch the armour upgrade for A thousand faces in order to have more flexibility on Turn 2.

I'll give the list another try later because it was quite fun to play. It is still a lot more difficult to play against Sonnia than my typical Lilith crew.

[ringsnake]

Your experience with Stitched Together seems strange to me. I had a game last week with Lynch, huggles, three Illuminated and three Stitched Together. 

They were rock stars,and did almost as much killing as the Illuminated, while letting me provide cover as they camped on areas of the board for schemes.

Though in that case I was able to combo addict on the attack rolls and mulligan myself better hands of cards. I can see how Stitched could be terrible without a good hand of cheats to stop them from blowing themselves up or giving your foe card draws.

[HegemonyKrcket]

I agree with everyone about playing a Fated Collodi, mostly because I prefer that version more.  With that in mind I'd say you've got two things to balance defending your crew and murdering problem models.

You've got a lot of options defensively.  Soft Cover from Stitched Together, Hodgepodge Effigy, and Waldgeists.  I'm a fan of all three, but the I take the Hodgepodge less that I probably should.  The Mysterious Effigy can help get models out of engagement or LoS if they survive an attack, but that doesn't help against Sonnia herself.  The Shadow Effigy can give a  on the first attack against them which can make a huge difference.  And then Arcane can remove conditions.  All these are great options, it's just matter of figuring out which one your like best.

Killing wise, I'm a big fan of Young Nephilim just because of the amount of damage they can put out.  Illuminated are more survivable for +1 stone, but they don't kill things as quickly.  In order to make them really mean you need a good way of putting out Brilliance and that's investing more stones then I'm normally willing to do.  Coryphee can also be good, but I find there Wounds to be too low against a ranged crew.  If you're focusing on paper cuts (a lot of small attacks) then Arcane is a good choice as it'll stack up burning on your enemy, which most of her crew isn't immune to.  I haven't played with Bunraku, but they look good and could easily replace the Young Nephilim if they're as good as I hope.

But whatever you do... DO NOT TAKE VASILISA

[yool1981]

20 hours ago, ringsnake said:

Your experience with Stitched Together seems strange to me. I had a game last week with Lynch, huggles, three Illuminated and three Stitched Together. 

They were rock stars,and did almost as much killing as the Illuminated, while letting me provide cover as they camped on areas of the board for schemes.

Though in that case I was able to combo addict on the attack rolls and mulligan myself better hands of cards. I can see how Stitched could be terrible without a good hand of cheats to stop them from blowing themselves up or giving your foe card draws.

Sometimes the cards are just not there. Collodi does not have as much card management as Lynch, Lilith or Zoraida (this was distrubing by the way, as a NB I am used to have the initiative and have a good hand).

I will try them more though as one game is not enough to have a real opinion about a model.

 

20 hours ago, HegemonyKrcket said:

You've got a lot of options defensively.  Soft Cover from Stitched Together, Hodgepodge Effigy, and Waldgeists.  I'm a fan of all three, but the I take the Hodgepodge less that I probably should.  The Mysterious Effigy can help get models out of engagement or LoS if they survive an attack, but that doesn't help against Sonnia herself.  The Shadow Effigy can give a  on the first attack against them which can make a huge difference.  And then Arcane can remove conditions.  All these are great options, it's just matter of figuring out which one your like best.

I am still trying stuff. Waldgeist with Armour +3 are likely to be extremely annoying but they do not have as much killing power as the Illuminated.

20 hours ago, HegemonyKrcket said:

Killing wise, I'm a big fan of Young Nephilim just because of the amount of damage they can put out.  Illuminated are more survivable for +1 stone, but they don't kill things as quickly.  In order to make them really mean you need a good way of putting out Brilliance and that's investing more stones then I'm normally willing to do.  

This has not been my experience with Young Nephilims. They usually die to a stiff breeze when I play them and the damage potential is equivalent to the Illuminated when you get the Alpha. I favour the Illuminated as they usually survive an Alpha (or they drain a lot of resources from the opponents so that retaliation can be effective).

I do not think they need Brilliance that much to be effective.

20 hours ago, HegemonyKrcket said:

I haven't played with Bunraku, but they look good and could easily replace the Young Nephilim if they're as good as I hope.

I was very surprised at how effective they were on the table. These are very nice models.

20 hours ago, HegemonyKrcket said:

But whatever you do... DO NOT TAKE VASILISA

I struggle to find Vasilisa's purpose. It does not bring so much to the crew, is not very durable and unsuited obey is really mew.

I do not get why this model passed the beta test as it is. But maybe I need to give it a chance and it will unexpectedly shine.

[HegemonyKrcket]

2 hours ago, yool1981 said:

I struggle to find Vasilisa's purpose. It does not bring so much to the crew, is not very durable and unsuited obey is really mew.

I do not get why this model passed the beta test as it is. But maybe I need to give it a chance and it will unexpectedly shine.

She's total garbage.  She's 11 stones of walks.

Collodi changed like 50 times during the beta test, so I think she suffered from just not getting enough attention.  The only issues I remember coming up was her initial ability to sling-shot Collodi into an opposing crew somehow... but I never understood why that was such a big deal as he's kinda mediocre without back up.

[santaclaws01]

5 hours ago, yool1981 said:

Sometimes the cards are just not there. Collodi does not have as much card management as Lynch, Lilith or Zoraida (this was distrubing by the way, as a NB I am used to have the initiative and have a good hand).

I will try them more though as one game is not enough to have a real opinion about a model.

 

I am still trying stuff. Waldgeist with Armour +3 are likely to be extremely annoying but they do not have as much killing power as the Illuminated.

This has not been my experience with Young Nephilims. They usually die to a stiff breeze when I play them and the damage potential is equivalent to the Illuminated when you get the Alpha. I favour the Illuminated as they usually survive an Alpha (or they drain a lot of resources from the opponents so that retaliation can be effective).

I do not think they need Brilliance that much to be effective.

I was very surprised at how effective they were on the table. These are very nice models.

I struggle to find Vasilisa's purpose. It does not bring so much to the crew, is not very durable and unsuited obey is really mew.

I do not get why this model passed the beta test as it is. But maybe I need to give it a chance and it will unexpectedly shine.

Reread the Young Nephilim triggers. You should be able to figure out why their damage potential is above the Illuminated. As for survivability, yeah, the Illuminated have that locked down. 

[trikk]

On 16.03.2017 at 10:57 AM, Ludvig said:

Sonnia is only df 4 and likes to be pushed into place by Francisco so a trapper + changeling gunline withfocus could hurt her badly with Collodi.

The vanilla Pandora crew suffers against Sonnia due to incorporeal models that she can hit and kill easily but if you do a more well rounded Pandy crew it shouldn't be too much of a problem.

I find Lilith and probably Titania best counters to Guild because you counter Sonnia the most and she can`t blast you. Even with 3 focused shots from Changelings and Sh4 you are most likely going to hit 1-2 times and thats around 8 damage before prevention. Sonnia can wipe that gunline in 2 shots and if she has Brutal Effigy she will most likely be full. Not to mention she can just wall you off with the child

[Tris]

On 20.3.2017 at 4:57 AM, santaclaws01 said:

Pretty sure Visions of Flame just allows them to ignore LoS, not cover.

It's both

[yool1981]

11 hours ago, trikk said:

I find Lilith and probably Titania best counters to Guild because you counter Sonnia the most and she can`t blast you.

I fully agree that Lilith is by far the best choice against Guild.

This is my go to master in a tournament environment.

However, the purpose is to test other options and go out of my comfort zone with Pandora and Collodi.

[ringsnake]

I've got first hand experience of playing guild against Lilith, and I agree. Lilith is hell on wheels against Guild.