Help with the Viks

[anencephalous]

Trouble with Viks

My bête noire is the Viks. I think at this point I have a 0-5 or 0-6 record against them. I usually don’t make it past round one or two.

I am looking for advice on a crew I can run verses Outcasts that has a decent chance against Viks. The player I play most often also plays Jack Daw and Levi, so ideally the crew isn't highly specialised against Viks only.

I have a good distribution of models, but only Lynch, Yan Lo, Shenlong and Mei Feng are painted, and I try and put a good image forward when I play in public.

Speaking of putting a good image forward, last week I gave a pretty tight demo - talked the new guy though a mini-game, talking up the complexity, richness of play and diversity of winning strategies in Malifaux. The guy looked pretty keen, and wanted to watch our game that followed. Enter Viks and a turn one tap out after the blend. He looked pretty confused and I felt like a bad con artist. I am not sure if he will come back to play.

 

The Team

It doesn't always look exactly like this, but this is the team I faced last game, and it is usually in this style.

Vik of Blood – Sisters in Spirit, Sisters in Fury, Survivalist

Vik of Ashe – Mark of Shezuul, Scramble

Hannah

Vanessa - Synchronised Slaying

Student of Conflict

Freikorps Trapper

Freikorps Librarian

 

The Game

Here are the schemes and strats of my last game, since sometimes people want to see the specifics.

Flack Deployment

Collect the Bounty

Claim Jump

Frame for Murder

Accusation

Undercover Entourage

Recover Evidence

I had to set up first. I lost first initiative flip.

 

The Problem

So the basic set up for the Viks is as follows: SOC fasts VOB. Vanessa casts Sisters of Battle. VOA walks 5” up the table, and uses Sisters in Spirit to place VOB on her far side. VOA then casts Sisters in Fury, then 0 points Twisted Dragon.

3 or 4 activations (because of companion), VOB is now 6 inches out of the set up zone, with fast and scramble. That gives an effective charge range of 17”. Basically, if she gets LOS on it she can charge it.

Sometimes they jump as soon as buffed, sometimes they wait till last activation (which with only 7 models, means I usually get one or two activations before the end of the round, provided those models were alive post the blend).

Before going on, it is worth noting I have never managed to kill VOB on the first turn, which means I have always had a minimum of two rounds of getting cut up, although the second one tends to be a bit less nightmarish because it usually happens without full buffs.

 

Solution: Counterstrike

With fast and some pushes, I have tried counter-striking. If VOB can charge me, I can charge her first. Eg. Sensei Yu pushes generic beater twice for 10” and gives fast. The problem for this plan has been that I cannot seem to kill VOB, no matter how hard I try. Lets say we have a regular Ml 6 beater, like Yasnaouri. The possible damage here is huge, but given VOB is flipping positives at 7, even with recalled training, I usually just miss twice. We both spend our highest cards, she wins. If I get lucky, I get an attack to land, even a severe, with the soulstone prevention VOB lives. Next activation the librarian casts heal on the Survivalist toting VOA, usually healing 4+ wounds. If she is really beat up, Hannah can copy the heal as a 0 action, and do it again. Of course, VOA can just kill the beater, and get her own healing flip. The result here is that at the end of round one, I am down a beater, Viks are down nothing, and they are still primed to murder frenzy round two.

Once, trying to mix it up, I used Huggy with Heed my Voice (go away twice), which worked because it was verses WP, but just delayed the inevitable for one round. For the record, Huggy has been my best counter-striker. He eats up two high cards, and then is buried. It slows them up a bit (a tiny bit, the other team has casts in abundance).

One of the real problems with the alpha-strike is the positive flips at 7s. TT beaters have distressingly average attack numbers. As far as I recall our 7 attackers are Kang (good model, cannot last a round verses VOB, cannot reach her to counter alpha strike due to low move), Dawn Serpent (good model, cannot last a round verses VOB, cannot use soulstones, cannot use recalled training), Ototo at half wounds (needs to be at low wounds before the charge in, a slim chance he might survive a round against VOB), Lust (1 point min damage attack), Sidir (ranged attack, cannot kill VOB in one activation) and shadow effigy and Sun Quiang (enough said).

None of these models seems capable of doing the job against an equal or better hand. Remembering that the VOB must be burst down in one activation.

 

Solution: Hold the Line

Apart from very niche lists like Yan Lo with 4 Ashigaru and Yamaziko, I don’t have a crew that seems to be able to take the pain. Yin dies, Izamu dies, all the tanks die. Indeed, with a choice of targets, she often hits the tank deliberately, just to remove it asap. I think the lowest I have lost to a full on blend is 15 points of models. On the up side, you get to attack VOB. She is easier to hit, but if she attacks at the end of the round, and with my main beater dead, I haven’t been able to kill her at the end of round one. One game I had Lynch left to activate, and I was sure I had her, but no dice.

Then at the start of round two, if I win initiative, I might get one more round of trying to kill her, but I have never killed her at the start of round two either (sigh), so she gets one more, albeit much weaker flurry, before dying.

At this point I have lost 20+ points of models, my opponent has lost one 0 point model, and the game is so lop-sided I cannot win.

It is actually pretty funny watching powerhouse models like Hannah and Vanessa sheepishly put down scheme markers in the middle throwing the occasional embarrassed glance at the carnage up the other end.

 

Solution: Turtle Up

Before we had all the fancy new schemes and strats, one game I got a set that allowed me to score without leaving my starting zone. So I didn't. Reckoning, Bodyguard and Vendetta or something. I was like, you come to me, biatch, and hid behind blocking terrain at my end. My opponent was a bit surprised, and spent two turns bluffing Line in the Sand (I wasn't buying it). By the time the end of the game neared, I was sure I had a draw at 0-0.

No such luck - place, move, charge and blend.

The problem with trying to defend against the Viks is that screening models are just rubbish. If we had rules for not charging through zones of control, it would be a more tactical game. As it stands, she just jogs past the trash line, and blends the back, occasionally throwing the screening models a pity kill if she can get them in whirlwind range.

 

Solution: Spread Out

Spread out they say. Alright, lets try that. Her base size at 30mm is approximately an inch, and her range is 2. So for her not to be able to charge two models for the whirlwind, I need to be 5”+ inches apart. With eight models, that is 40+”, 4” longer than the width of the damn table.

Alright, but lets say we can accept just two models dying, and otherwise stagger them as best we can. Or perhaps leaving a few models back or something. VOB picks one side, and starts chewing her way though it.

Now I have no chance of killing her in retaliation (we are all spread out, only a few models can reach her after her charge), and she can do it once a round every round, and I still loose to attrition.

What is so annoying about the Viks is that they can never be out of position. Her synergy bubble is the whole board. No 8”, LOS or any of that nonsense. Buffs from across the board, heals from across the board. So she stays in synergy when her team is spread out, yours does not.

Finally, often holding the middle of the board is a strat requirement, so spreading out in only viable in a few strategies.

 

Solution: Snipe

Awesome, somehow I landed a shot with my focused katanaka sniper, doing max damage, shooting at 5s into 7s (maybe six if I shoot immediately). Great, 5 damage. Down to 3 with a stone, healed without thought later in the round.

I tried running the Shenlong shooting crew (3 snipers, sensei yu, emissary. Hand of 9 with 2 shots each (6 focused shots), with my entire team on a roof. It wasn't the solution. Blended before I could finish getting the buffs on, and lost one sniper immediately to a red joker from his Trapper (which I admit is pretty darn unlucky). If this game was normal deployment rather than flank, I might have been able to shoot her down, but only if there was no blocking cover anywhere in the middle of the board.

The gunline needs to be together to work, and that is just asking to be blended.

 

Solution: Debuff

My problem here is how do you get the debuff on? She goes from one side of the board to the other, and my models don't.

Yin seems like a serious contender here – push, push, fast. Then The Fear Behind the Eyes with No Escape from ranged attack. But it does 1/2/4, and need to damage, so you can bet your bottom dollar that is getting prevented. At this point I am seriously considering putting recalled training on Yin, just so I can cheat down a severe on damage for a one round delay on the alpha strike.

Other ranged debuffers include Mr Tannen, especially if you have a high mask, however he is survive long pushed out in the open. The TT Archers for slow (LOL). Guild Pathfinder for slow (more viable, but need a suit, and still attacking at 5 vs defence.) I cannot see a reliable way to get a slow or better debuff on VOB before the blend.

 

Solution: Just Run Schemes

Yes, thank you. Score points you say? I hadn't thought of that.

Wait, yes, yes I had.

The problem here is that I am down so many soulstones, even if I kill VOB, that my team just cannot do what needs to be done better than the opponent.

If the schemes and strats are really anti-kill, I will be facing Levi or Jack instead, so I cannot rely on soft schemes to carry me.

Even the now the ubiquitous Frame for Murder is good with Viks, because it goes on VOB. Kill her? Give away points after a blend. Don't kill her? What team were you planning on scoring with, because your first one is back in its case already?

 

Other Thoughts

I haven't got Asami or Misaki painted yet, and they might hold up more hope. I can pretty easily imagine trading Misaki for VOB, which only starts the game with me being down half a master. Still not actually a positive start, but the best possible negative start. Asami might be able to spam models to keep her locked up (but probably not, how are those disengaging strikes against 7 at positive going?).

Either way, if anyone can see something I have missed, and wants to offer a decent crew and plan that uses the four masters I am currently running, and is viable against other Outcasts crews, I would really appreciate it.

[bindi]

You've got huggy... have you tried running beckoners to lure either vik away from the other and pick on the lonely one?

Disguised to prevent charges? waste her AP making her walk to you. Shoot her on the approach.

The mark of ignore everything is key to the power of blood. Have you tried Hans "smile you son of a..." to remove the upgrade? 

Nurse heartsbane with recalled training could be a thing. walk, walk, 0 action and hold still dear will hold her in place for a turn. If you're feeling cheeky, use electroshock to literally put the restraints on.

Sloth's trigger is a PITA for the viks, especially when he's the only charge target.

**edit** or killjoy can jump at after she's killed something and step on her.

 

 

Edited March 14, 2017 by bindi
forgot about a stompy killjoy

[Kogan Style]

8 hours ago, anencephalous said:

I tried running the Shenlong shooting crew (3 snipers, sensei yu, emissary. Hand of 9 with 2 shots each (6 focused shots), with my entire team on a roof.

I sincerely hope you didn't try this list because its illegal. K.Snipers are rare 2.

If FFM is in pool, trade a model for 3 VP. If you suspect FFM is on VOB and you are playing Lynch, have Huggy obey VOA to kill VOB, thus denying FFM (Friendly model killing the sucker doesn't count for FFM)
 

Wokou Raiders could be a good road block, as VOB can't cheat and will have to stone for the  or whatever it is to get the whirlwind, and hope they flip higher than what is in your control hand. Wokou are also only worth 1 in the Strategy cost so they don't give up much when they eventually get taken out.

 

[Adran]

A few points, that you may already know, but can be helpful to others in a similar situation.

Spread out - Whilst you showed you can't just put a line of your models across the board, you can still spread out. Terrain and other positioning issues can mean that VOB can't get to all the places she might want to get whirlwind. And you have at least a 6" deep deployment zone. You might also make it so that the nice spot she wants is in a place that won't be in LOS of VOA, so she would lose ml expert.

Accept the inevitable - Its almost impossible to stop VOB killing something if that is what they want her to do. But you can have a decent say in what she kills, and therefore where she kills. Ten Thunders do have Death contract upgrade which may stop part of her killing spree.

Road Block - She will probably kill the road blocks, but you can pick things that are not so easy for her to kill. A defensive stance TTB with a 4" ml zone is pretty annoying for her, as that a large bubble she can't declare charges in, and she needs 2 weak damages (or 1 moderate ) to kill a model that is on the same stats as her. If I have this sort of road block, I will hold a lot of the good cards in my hand to either make her burn her hand, or fail to kill.

Combined efforts. If you can shoot her on the way in, and have some anti charge tech, (Braced for example) its possible she can't charge without dying.

Don't give up - You can win games even with the soulstone swing against you. I have played games where I've lost everything, and killed 1 enemy model (And they summoned more SS worth than that model during the game) and still won. I've played games where my master has been killed at the start of 2 turn having  done nothing on turn 1 and still won. Its not easy, btu it is certainly possible

 

[Kihraxz]

Yo,

These may appeared already but these are great ways to Shut Down Viks

Specific Answers:

McCabe and Guild Riflemen

Yan Lo and Ashigaru

Disquised Misaki and Oiran

Asami and Obisidian Oni

Remember to Take Anna Lovelace. She Provides 2 things that shut down Viks a Tie up Model and preventing Places which is the way Viks leave engagement

This was the Lists I made to Counter Outcasts to a high success (3-1 win ratio). Swapping out Aionus for Anna or Sloth would also work.

50 SS Ten Thunders Crew
Misaki + 5 Pool
- Disguise (2)
- Misdirection (2)
- Recalled Training (1)
Shang (3)
Aionus (13)
- Hidden Agenda (0)
- Equality (1)
Samurai (8)
- Favor Of Jigoku (0)
Katanaka Sniper (7)
Oiran (5)
Oiran (5)
 

General Plan Against Viks. Kill Vikki B with Misaki (using Recalled Training) and then enjoy your day.

 

[tomjoad]

My plan with the Viks is to harass them with shooting, then kill one with Lone Swordsman or Yasunori. I guess it isn't foolproof, but in my limited exposure to them it has been successful.

[bindi]

4 hours ago, Kihraxz said:

 

Remember to Take Anna Lovelace. She Provides 2 things that shut down Viks a Tie up Model and preventing Places which is the way Viks leave engagement

 

 

They can also leave engagement by killing everything.

[Kihraxz]

17 hours ago, bindi said:

They can also leave engagement by killing everything.

If they're spending AP to kill Seishin. I'm okay with that.

[Mouseketeer]

Player of thunders & Viks here.. so a few things to think about...

Throwing out VoB early means she's dead. then it's just a matter of taking more SS with you... 

Avoiding that is definitely challenging. Spread out is the definite preference. No you can't keep EVERYTHING out necessarily, but the more you can avoid giving multiple valuable targets the better.

Stuff with defensive triggers is a winner... misdirection is a staple, also burning Shenlong means that you can up your duel total AFTER you finalise duel totals... couple of sneaky misses is good.

Sniping is still handy, even if you don't kill her... 

My Pokey has been shut down by terror before today... Yin, (as well as the negatives and other things) is handy just for that

Sloth. nothing a Pokey Vik hates more than a shut down activation.

Yasunori will eat her alive  as will asami... tee hee... Ht duels give me the giggles. Shenlong stopping her from using soulstones to prevent can be effective also.

Messing with her movement can also be fun... Lust, Yu, Yan Lo lightening dancing her... disguised stuff... all of the things.

 

But all in all, she's activating late, BUT generally you can out activate a Vik crew. so you have some say in what happens.

Minimise viable targets, put some damage on her make your opponent sweat, have something to counter attack her... The more cards you force her to flip that don't result in damage to your models (other duels, terror, manipulative, etc) the better.

 

Cheers,

Mouse

 

[Gennosuke]

 

I would recomend fighting fire with fire. Misaki (w/ Stalking Bisento, Recalled Training, Misidirection) and Sensei Yu, and Alphastrike the sh*t out of them (although I'm aware you don't have her painted yet, and for that I'm staring at you with disapproval ¬¬ ).

Also, blocking LoS of VoB to targets would disrupt quite a lot their combo, right? A Torakage with access to Smoke and Shadows should easily place two blocking markers in her way, so VoB can't reach her target, at least turn one, but your fast-ed beater still could walk (or be pushed) through and charge her.

[Ludvig]

Merc in a strongarm suit and give it recalled training? With it's (0) action to do 3/5/7 and a  to damage flips (potentially two  if you hit the trigger) you should be able to take her in two hits as long as she doesn't stone double severe or the red joker or something. The lone swordsman should also be a good deterrent to her charging into you. A few disguised models will greatly reduce her charge angles too.

[anencephalous]

In order they were given, my thoughts on advice so far:

Beckoners – Tried. Pulling Vik in generally made it worse. Also they suffer terribly against Fr Trappers with the low defence.

Disguised – Tried, but she doesn’t charge five point models anyhow. Yes they can run schemes, but it is the core I lose to the blend. If Mali had a system where you couldn't charge through engagement, they would be much better.

Hans – Tried. Just can never draw the damn 11+ of crows I need, and certainly not on the first turn. Even if you did, you are shooting 6 into 7 at +. Really hard to land it.

Nurse Heartbane – Don't own. I wasn't convinced she was worth it when we have access to Yin already. Will reconsider if people say she is ace.

Sloth – Haven't painted him, but this is pure genius. Best tip so far.

Killjoy – Don't own. Could work.

Draw Frame for Murder – Umm, well sure, half the time it is there, but it just goes on VoB, so it is a 3 for 3 at best. Mucking around trying to get burning on her with no soulstones seems unlikely, given I often cannot even kill her throwing everything at her.

Wokou Raiders – Don't own, but good idea.

Spread Out – Again, I have tried it. Minimises the number of models that dies, certainly, but makes it even harder to kill VoB on retaliation.

Accept the Inevitable - …

Road Block – TT Bros I have tried. But that seven defence with positive flip just doesn’t seem so good against seven offence with positive flip. My opponent usually charges past them, and tried to pick them up on the trigger, where a miss isn’t a disaster.

Combined Efforts – Shoot and brace. Possible. A heavy brace crew is a hard counter, just don’t think Yan with Ashigaru and Yamaziko can beat anything other than the Viks in Outcasts.

McCabe and Rifleman – Don't Own. Even so, three Rifleman will do three x two points on charge. That is nil damage if she spend three soulstones, or some damage if she doesn’t. Either way, it will not stop the blend.

Yan and Ashigaru – A counter of sorts. Although limited in usefulness against other Outcast crews, and also hard to score with. Walking forward 5” a turn then bracing in a bubble is really slow! VoB doesn’t have to charge first turn, of course, some objectives can be run while I inch up the board.

Disguise Misaki – Haven't painted. Fingers crossed this will work.

Asami and Obsidian Oni - Haven't painted. Not sure what the Obsidian Oni bring that helps particularly? The summoning markers, I suppose?

Anna Lovelace – Don't own. Given the last million miles of the VoB is a charge, I don’t think she would help that much.

Harass then LS or Yas alpha strike – I don’t own Yas yet. In myy experience shooting iinto the seven at + rarely does much. Also, if I charge, all the high cards get used in defence, and I never kill her. Then the whole team casually kills the charging model. Then my opponent sets up to do the same blend round two. Perhaps Yas can clean house in one activation? I doubt it however, since it is still 6 v 7, with their whole cache to burn.

Misdirection – I usually take it. But the usual deflection targets (Samurai, Huggy, Izamu) all get blended so fast with the 4 min damage ignoring everything. You still lose models so fast.

Yin – A good idea.

Yas and Asami again – Don’t own/haven't painted. Looking forward to having them on the table.

Messing with movement – I have used Huggy to double push VoB away from a chargeable position before. But with all the movement stuff on their side, she was ready to charge as normal on turn two.

Misaki/Yu alphastrike – Still painting Misaki. I think her 7 attack would really help against the 7 def. And I am pretty sure you could reliably trade her for VoB. Doesn't really seem like a positive trade (master for half a master), but I suppose it is the best I can hope for.

Smoke and Shadows – Not a bad idea. I must admit I tend to forget that upgrade exists.

Strongarm Suit – I own this fellow, and never found him superior to the endogenous TT beaters. He still has the 6 vs 7 problem, where there is a really good chance he will charge for two whiffs (cards being equal), and defensively he cannot hold a VoB charge if she goes first.

Lone Swordsman – Tried. Dies easy, doesn’t win on charge, (again, 6 v 7s).

 

Last note, on triple snipers for Kogan Style, the crew is not three Katanaka Snipers, it is a mix of Fre Trappers and K Snipers, as desired. They all cost the same and do about the same thing.

 

[Gennosuke]

On 15/4/2017 at 0:14 PM, anencephalous said:

Misaki/Yu alphastrike – Still painting Misaki. I think her 7 attack would really help against the 7 def. And I am pretty sure you could reliably trade her for VoB. Doesn't really seem like a positive trade (master for half a master), but I suppose it is the best I can hope for.

 

I don't think Misaki has necessarily to die.

Giving this list:

- Misaki (Recalled Training, Misdirection, Stalking Bisento), 2SS Cache

- Shang

- Sensei Yu (wandering river style)

- Shadow Effigy

- 27SS as you like

Their combo requires at least three activations, while Misaki+Yu's only two, so you can activate Misaki before VoB. Be sure to activate the effigy before Misaki to give her its (0).

Then, before Vannesa/VoB activates, Misaki should be able to make at least 2 attacks (and up to 5 depending in positioning) to VoB. I'd spend RT, to maximize both damage and defense, and stone for crows everytime, hoping to reduce either their hand (no (+) to VoB's defense) or their SS pool (no prevention). With the last of Misaki's attacks use Next Target to end engaged with several minis (ideally engaged with VoB, VoA, and a third one).

Even if you didn't kill VoB, with (+)(+) (no stones and RT) it should be quite easy to trigger Misidirection, and add to that the (-) from the effigy. If one or two attacks land on her, in turn 2 Shang will be close enough to heal her one or two times. Even better, if you win initiative turn two, you'll most probably kill another key model before your oponent can heal, attack, and/or repositionate, and then repositionate Misaki and ideally chain-activate Shang to heal Misaki.

The most likely posibilitiy to lose Misaki to this would be failing to kill VoB AND an extremely good positioning from your opponent so you couldn't use Misdirection properly.

[Adran]

On 15/04/2017 at 11:14 AM, anencephalous said:

In order they were given, my thoughts on advice so far:

Accept the Inevitable - …

Road Block – TT Bros I have tried. But that seven defence with positive flip just doesn’t seem so good against seven offence with positive flip. My opponent usually charges past them, and tried to pick them up on the trigger, where a miss isn’t a disaster.

I think you missed the main point I was trying to suggest with this. The TT brother can make a 9" area of You can't declare a charge (Also known as you are engaged). Place this bubble in front of your main force and Vik can't charge you. She might be able to walk and hit you, although this may have her have to disengage. You shouldn't then have another model close enough to them to allow her to whirlwind onto the brother. 

The high df (even if its just a 6 because the positioning is potentially more important than the defensive stance) is more to prevent her being able to cheat the damage flip and forcing her to hit twice to kill it, because if she can kill it with her Ml expert she could still charge.

 

[Mouseketeer]

Thing is, it isn't any one of these solutions, but a combination of a couple most likely. 

Keep us posted with progress!

Cheers,

Mouse

[Da Git]

It's strongly implied that VoB is Df7, how do they do that? I thought she was only Df6... 

What about Yu or Shen using WRS to push her and give her Slow? 

What's the rest of the Vik crew typically look like? 

[anencephalous]

Quote

I don't think Misaki has necessarily to die.

Giving this list:

- Misaki (Recalled Training, Misdirection, Stalking Bisento), 2SS Cache

- Shang

- Sensei Yu (wandering river style)

- Shadow Effigy

- 27SS as you like

Their combo requires at least three activations, while Misaki+Yu's only two, so you can activate Misaki before VoB. Be sure to activate the effigy before Misaki to give her its (0).

Then, before Vannesa/VoB activates, Misaki should be able to make at least 2 attacks (and up to 5 depending in positioning) to VoB. I'd spend RT, to maximize both damage and defense, and stone for crows everytime, hoping to reduce either their hand (no (+) to VoB's defense) or their SS pool (no prevention). With the last of Misaki's attacks use Next Target to end engaged with several minis (ideally engaged with VoB, VoA, and a third one).

Even if you didn't kill VoB, with (+)(+) (no stones and RT) it should be quite easy to trigger Misidirection, and add to that the (-) from the effigy. If one or two attacks land on her, in turn 2 Shang will be close enough to heal her one or two times. Even better, if you win initiative turn two, you'll most probably kill another key model before your oponent can heal, attack, and/or repositionate, and then repositionate Misaki and ideally chain-activate Shang to heal Misaki.

The most likely posibilitiy to lose Misaki to this would be failing to kill VoB AND an extremely good positioning from your opponent so you couldn't use Misdirection properly.

There is no way to lock up VoB, VoA and a third, because VoA has walked once then placed VoB on the opposite side. VoA is 5cms from the baseline, and VoB is on her far side. So you might engage VoA and VoB, or if you are really lucky on angles, get VoA and another model on the baseline, but certainly not three. Assuming you kill VoB, then Hannah copies sisters of spirit and pulls VoA back to her, and then the librarian, Vanessa and the trapper all shoot Misaki. Then Hannah charges. I cannot really see her surviving. On the other hand if somehow VoB doesnt die (that really shouldnt happen!), then Hannah pulls VoA back and VoB blends Misaki. I think trade is a reasonable expectation. At least they will have used up a good number of activations doing it.

 

[anencephalous]

On 18/04/2017 at 10:59 PM, Adran said:

I think you missed the main point I was trying to suggest with this. The TT brother can make a 9" area of You can't declare a charge (Also known as you are engaged). Place this bubble in front of your main force and Vik can't charge you. She might be able to walk and hit you, although this may have her have to disengage. You shouldn't then have another model close enough to them to allow her to whirlwind onto the brother. 

The high df (even if its just a 6 because the positioning is potentially more important than the defensive stance) is more to prevent her being able to cheat the damage flip and forcing her to hit twice to kill it, because if she can kill it with her Ml expert she could still charge.

 

I totally missed your point! Great idea, going to the top of list for things to try. Also doesn't gimp the squad verses other Outcasts. It does need at least one crow, however. If you were lucky enough to draw a two crows on the first turn, on the other hand, you could overlap two TT Bros for extra protection.

 

[anencephalous]

On 21/04/2017 at 8:07 PM, Da Git said:

It's strongly implied that VoB is Df7, how do they do that? I thought she was only Df6... 

What about Yu or Shen using WRS to push her and give her Slow? 

What's the rest of the Vik crew typically look like? 

A zero point action called the Setting Sun. Gives all Sisters within 2" of another Sister +1 DF. So once she is set up, waiting for the right moment to strike, she is 7 at positives. Makes the counterstrike really hard (but probably not for Misaki). I have tried pushes, but it is hard to get there without overextending, and even then, she can always wait till round two and do it again!

The Vik typical crew is in the OP.

[Gennosuke]

46 minutes ago, anencephalous said:

There is no way to lock up VoB, VoA and a third, because VoA has walked once then placed VoB on the opposite side. VoA is 5cms from the baseline, and VoB is on her far side. So you might engage VoA and VoB, or if you are really lucky on angles, get VoA and another model on the baseline, but certainly not three. Assuming you kill VoB, then Hannah copies sisters of spirit and pulls VoA back to her, and then the librarian, Vanessa and the trapper all shoot Misaki. Then Hannah charges. I cannot really see her surviving. On the other hand if somehow VoB doesnt die (that really shouldnt happen!), then Hannah pulls VoA back and VoB blends Misaki. I think trade is a reasonable expectation. At least they will have used up a good number of activations doing it.

 

 

I may be wrong, but I believe Hannah can copy only (1) Ca Actions (except freikorps bla bla bla), which sisters of spirit isn't.

But yeah, three models it's rather idyllic

[anencephalous]

Quote

I may be wrong, but I believe Hannah can copy only (1) Ca Actions (except freikorps bla bla bla), which sisters of spirit isn't.

But yeah, three models it's rather idyllic

My bad.

 

[chris_havoc]

Can you not take out the Student with range to prevent the df boost? Vik of Ashes has a lower defense too maybe try the shooting against them? Not just to kill them but if you get cards down Vik of Blood doesn't have the positives. The problem isn't always the obvious threat either (as I'm sure you know) so I would suggest taking your master and shoving down the Viks' face. Mei Feng and Shenlong are both crazy quick and can accomplish this. Also, Misdirection really works if you go all in against hard hitters like the viks. Especially of you charge first because cards usually get used up. Go for the Vik of Ashes because if she gets moved out the way the Student has to be there and she's no longer in 2" of things for the Df/Ml boost even if the student isn't there. I must say Low River Shenlog is especially good with Misdirection with all that defensive. He can also potentially steal her fast but that is corner case at best. But a good old Recalled Training and you have fair odds odds of surviving (it improves your prevention flips too which I always forget), can heal the next turn, you're a single target so no whirlwind, and any additional hitting help runs the risk of Misdirection.

Misaki is obviously first prize for this tactic with her auto-Decapitate if you burn your last stone for a Crow and she gains double positives that turn too (on basically all things) with Recalled Training. Shenlong is a close second for the models you have though.

P.S. Being this aggressive is not always a tactic that works for everyone and is rather high risk so if things fluff there's trouble but with all the positives fluffing is minimized. Also you'd obviously build for the crew. I like taking Killjoy with Misaki so after she's finally put down out pops Killjoy. Not sure he'd necessarily work for Shenlong but the tactic is effective against a lot of crews. Not sure about Levi (I don't face him often) but Jack Daw does not like multiple positives on Attack and Damage in his face. 

[anencephalous]

23 minutes ago, chris_havoc said:

Can you not take out the Student with range to prevent the df boost? Vik of Ashes has a lower defense too maybe try the shooting against them? Not just to kill them but if you get cards down Vik of Blood doesn't have the positives. The problem isn't always the obvious threat either (as I'm sure you know) so I would suggest taking your master and shoving down the Viks' face. Mei Feng and Shenlong are both crazy quick and can accomplish this. Also, Misdirection really works if you go all in against hard hitters like the viks. Especially of you charge first because cards usually get used up. Go for the Vik of Ashes because if she gets moved out the way the Student has to be there and she's no longer in 2" of things for the Df/Ml boost even if the student isn't there. I must say Low River Shenlog is especially good with Misdirection with all that defensive. He can also potentially steal her fast but that is corner case at best. But a good old Recalled Training and you have fair odds odds of surviving (it improves your prevention flips too which I always forget), can heal the next turn, you're a single target so no whirlwind, and any additional hitting help runs the risk of Misdirection.

Misaki is obviously first prize for this tactic with her auto-Decapitate if you burn your last stone for a Crow and she gains double positives that turn too (on basically all things) with Recalled Training. Shenlong is a close second for the models you have though.

P.S. Being this aggressive is not always a tactic that works for everyone and is rather high risk so if things fluff there's trouble but with all the positives fluffing is minimized. Also you'd obviously build for the crew. I like taking Killjoy with Misaki so after she's finally put down out pops Killjoy. Not sure he'd necessarily work for Shenlong but the tactic is effective against a lot of crews. Not sure about Levi (I don't face him often) but Jack Daw does not like multiple positives on Attack and Damage in his face. 

The student gives fast on the first turn. If I ever set up second and won initiative, I might be able to kill it first activation, but that hasn't happened. I have killed it, but only after it activated.

The problem with shooting into that crew is that all sisters heal when any heal, and with Vanessa, Librarian, and Hannah copying the librarian, if you cannot finish a model in one activation it tends to be a waste of shooting. So chipping them down is pretty hard. Our snipers are five against six even when shooting VoA, so it isn’t even guaranteed to land.

It depends on the map, but I frequently cannot pick my charge target. In a normal set up, we are talking about a very high move model at the end of her range. I mean, I can just put the master front and centre, and then have sensei Yu push twice. But, except for Misaki, no one is likely to kill VoB on a charge, and they are just standing there in the open for a round, so they will take damage before they go in.

Then they go in, if VoB doesn’t die, you have just left a master standing there amongst their troops. Maybe with recalled training, stones, misdirection and whatever you can stay alive the round, but how does it help? They are still set up for round two, recalled training is gone, they are on full health, you lose the master round two, and they are still ready to blend.

I also find misdirection pretty tricky to get right. Say you are flipping two or three cards on defence (Shenlong or Misaki), great if you get a mask, but if it is high, the attack misses, and if it is low, they spend two soulstones and get to do huge damage on a straight flip. This is especially rough against Misaki who usually has no stones for mitigation. Eg VoA and Hannah's severe damage is 6. If you low card two misdirections that don't deflect, that could be it for Misaki. Also, if you flip multiple cards, you often have low mask, high something else. In that case you are probably safer choosing the higher card. What I am trying to say here is that Misdirection is great, but inconsistent, if you are flipping lots of cards not using stones for it.

Finally Vanessa is shooting at 7 (2/2/4) against WP, which Misdirection wont help with, and Hannah can borrow the attack.

Last but not least, with Misaki, Hannah can copy Downburst (8 against 7), and then deliberately fail the DF duels, pushing all the models out of her range.

I am pretty sure I can kill VoB now I have Misaki up and running, but I don't think she lives the round. I will report after I try it. On the other hand I don’t think Mei or Shenlong can actually kill her on average hand/card flips, which means alpha-striking with them is probably not a good idea.

 

[Mouseketeer]

Shenlong with high river could definitely drop her - shutting down soulstone use, winning every duel by taking damage... It's definitely not off the cards. Shenlong also has a better than average chance of living compared to a lot of the other thunder masters... 

Mei would probably be a little harder to do it with, unless you could set her on fire first... but at least you have the option of railwalking away to safety if it goes pear shaped.

Mouse

 

[anencephalous]

Quote

Shenlong with high river could definitely drop her - shutting down soulstone use, winning every duel by taking damage... It's definitely not off the cards. Shenlong also has a better than average chance of living compared to a lot of the other thunder masters... 

It could happen, certainly. But with a soulstone for defence and a soulstone for damage mitigation on the first attack, you are probably doing nil damage to start (with the 1/3/4). After that you need one moderate and one severe. With recalled, that doesn't seem unlikely.

I still see it as a trade, however. If you are alphastriking quickly, you probably don't have a lot of 0 actions to attack in High River, switch to Low River after the charge, and have both fire and defensive stance to spare. I suppose if you start with wandering on Yu, and go Kamatachi over Peasants you could have both ready. Otherwise you can just stay in High River, but the sheer number of attacks incoming you will burn yourself down. Because without the push trigger he will be out in the open, ready to be shot by  the Librarian, Vanessa, trapper and Hannah, followed by a Hannah Charge. He could live, but I wouldn't bank on it.