Probably going to start the game, what's the balance like?

[iamfanboy]

So my take on the basic game is this:

It would be fun even if there were only twenty models in the game, not hundreds.

The basic game has such complexity that even if both sides had barely more than the same selection as a chess player, the permutations would be nearly endless. It's quite brilliant in that regard, and one of the things I admire most.

However, defeat often comes from ignorance of a model's capabilities - the Gunsmith can get Fast? Sammy LaCroix can remove Scheme Markers AND get Stuffed Piglets? - rather than planning, tactics, and luck. Now that is something solved by memorization, and it IS a common problem among many wargames - I regularly get gotcha'd in Warmachine - but even if complication is a common problem it's still a problem.

 

But don't get me wrong. Malifaux has a round dozen good points and only two or three bad points. It's just that as a salesman my technique is to point out, "Well, this has one or two downsides, but look at all the upsides!"

Malifaux has: Intriguing storyline that is consistently moving forward with new developments (oh, that Burning Man...), interesting and wildly different characters in a character-driven game, a wide variety of beautifully sculpted models that appeal to almost any aesthetic taste, easily understood gameplay, deep variety of gameplay thanks to the unique method of divining the Victory Point conditions of each session, almost impeccable game balance across the factions and Masters, easily scaled games that finish in a reasonable time frame, the alternating activation system which means a player is always actively engaged in the game, and an integrated campaign system.

What it also has: a multitude of confusing and difficult to understand models, miniatures that run the gamut from 'difficult to put together' to 'a separate BEARD?' making it hard for less dextrous players to put them together, a storyline that's spread across eight main books (four of which are no longer in print), and a company that seems a bit... over-reliant... on the internet and the Henchmen to explain things. Would it really be so hard to shrink down the images of the models on the back for a quick blurb about who's inside the Crew box?

But if it's an equation, the plus and the minus together still equals a huge positive number in my book.

[sirbrokensword]

Ok, thanks again everyone!  I've jumped in, picked up the perdita Ortega box.  Guild it is!

[jerhien]

Good man! As a fellow Guild player, hit me up with any questions.

[Akkatha]

On 3/10/2017 at 8:06 PM, iamfanboy said:

.......a company that seems a bit... over-reliant... on the internet and the Henchmen to explain things. Would it really be so hard to shrink down the images of the models on the back for a quick blurb about who's inside the Crew box?

Absolutely. This is something that Wyrd could learn a lot about.

I had heard about Malifaux and was interested in it a full year before I bought anything or tried the game, and that was the 2 player starter box. There is simply no information about what goes with what, or what each crew is designed to do. Hell, even the factions aren't described on the boxes, just some archaic symbols that mean literally nothing to someone who doesn't play, which used to be me.

With a bit of work, some clarification and a really good starter guide, Wyrd could capture a lot more players through in store sales rather than relying on word of mouth to explain everything. It's still something I see as a problem with the company. Doesn't affect me now as I'm hooked on the game, but for so long I didn't go near it through confusion, so I can imagine many potential players have just walked away from the boxes in stores. It's a shame!

[solkan]

1 hour ago, Akkatha said:

Absolutely. This is something that Wyrd could learn a lot about.

I had heard about Malifaux and was interested in it a full year before I bought anything or tried the game, and that was the 2 player starter box. There is simply no information about what goes with what, or what each crew is designed to do. Hell, even the factions aren't described on the boxes, just some archaic symbols that mean literally nothing to someone who doesn't play, which used to be me.

Please name a miniatures company which packages their models with the information you're asking for on the box.  And keep in mind how many skirmish games there are currently on the market.

Quote

With a bit of work, some clarification and a really good starter guide, Wyrd could capture a lot more players through in store sales rather than relying on word of mouth to explain everything. It's still something I see as a problem with the company. Doesn't affect me now as I'm hooked on the game, but for so long I didn't go near it through confusion, so I can imagine many potential players have just walked away from the boxes in stores. It's a shame!

Imagine that the Pull My Finger wiki exists with all of its explanations of the models, and the Two Player starter set exists.  What's supposed to go on the box?

 

[iamfanboy]

Uhh...

Each of the Warmachine Battle Boxes actually come with a little booklet that has a short story about the Warnoun inside, along with a blurb about each faction inside that same booklet - and a painting guide for the faction you chose. It also has a description on the back of the box describing what and who's inside for each starter set.

The Alpha Strike Lance boxes includes cards about the faction that the lance is is painted as inside, and talks about them on the back.

The starter box for Infinity's rulebook has blurbs about each faction - my friend only owns that, so I can't say anything about their packaging other than that.

The X-Wing Miniatures game only has a paragraph on the back about the ship on the blisters, but the larger boxes include booklets talking about the contents and even have missions for that boxed set inside.

I wouldn't touch 40k with a diseased rat, but GW traditionally considers little things like that an upsell opportunity.

Yes, Malifaux is a good game @solkan. But credit where it's due, and criticism where it's fair: Wyrd relies too much on the Internet and Henchmen to help them sell their game. The boxes are attractive, but tell you nothing about the minis inside, the game, or even - aside from a cryptic symbol - what minis belong to which faction.

Also, the flat renders on the back are not attractive. Yes, they're perfectly representative of the minis inside because of the CAD process, but to someone picking up the box they look fake and computer generated because they are.

It's to the point where I'm tempted to put together a pdf booklet of the basic info they have on their website and just drop it at the local gamestore.

[Bengt]

I haven't really thought about this before, but there is very little information on many GW product boxes about where they fall faction wise. E.g. if you know nothing about the 40k universe, how do you know that an "Eldar Wave Serpent" (same typography for all the words) is not just the full name of the unit, as opposed to a unit called "Wave Serpent" from the faction "Eldar"? Any other text on the box is about copyright and how it's supplied unpainted etc. GW do generally have a strong faction aesthetics, but there is very little textual information outside the rule/codex books (or the internet).

[Akkatha]

6 hours ago, solkan said:

Please name a miniatures company which packages their models with the information you're asking for on the box.  And keep in mind how many skirmish games there are currently on the market.

Imagine that the Pull My Finger wiki exists with all of its explanations of the models, and the Two Player starter set exists.  What's supposed to go on the box?

 

I'm not trying to attack anyone here, just sharing my personal experience. I was interested in malifaux for over a year before I even bought a single thing. I would have jumped in much much quicker had there been any indication at all on the packages what I needed to play. Most games have a starter box, which M2E now has which is brilliant. However that was the first thing I bought, purely because I didn't have a sweet clue what to buy first.

Games Workshop is pretty self explanatory and I can go to their website and read a description of every single model they sell, where it will tell me the faction they're aligned to.

Warmachine has starter boxes along with battlegroup boxes aimed at beginners which made it easy for me to try the game (hated it but at least I knew I bought the right thing!).

Malifaux has none of this. The back of the crew boxes doesn't even tell you who the leader of the crew is. It seems incredibly basic to someone like you or I, who are invested in the game, but until someone tells you, its very difficult to work out. With the dreamer for example you'd look at the box and assume you're playing as a big, badass gribbly monster named Lord Chompy Bits!

With all the lore the game has and the amazing setting of Malifaux, a little blurb on the back of each box would go a long way towards increasing appeal.

As for what I'd put on the box, thats simple. Take for example the McMourning crew box. I'd have something like "Working as the Head Coroner for the Guild but moonlighting as a secret Ressurectionist, Dr Douglas McMourning performs his gruesome experiments with the help of his faithful assistant Sebastian, his manic nurses and a whole host of pox-ridden, zombified animal experients, including his favourite chihuahua! This box contains the master McMourning, who can lead either a Guild or Ressurectionist crew, Sebastian, two nurses, the zombie chihuahua and one canine remains." Its not perfect and I don't work in PR, but that should at least let you know whats in the box, what the flavour is and what faction the models are. Granted theres some obscurity between say hiring canaine remains in Guild, but you cant have everything.

The pullmyfinger wiki is a marvellous resource, but it's not official

I'm not the only person in my area thats been confused by all of this when they were starting out and for many it's just easier to pick another game instead. We don't want that, more people playing is a good thing!

[Bengt]

56 minutes ago, Akkatha said:

Malifaux has none of this.

They have plenty of information on their website, all the crewboxes have a write up, e.g. McMourning. Minor boxes have no fluff information, but they say what's in them and what faction they belong to, e.g. https://giveusyourmoneypleasethankyou-wyrd.com/collections/guild/products/guild-riflemen

And if someone is standing in a physical store and browsing Malifaux boxes, won't they be able to figure out pretty quickly that the prominent colour band means that some boxes belong together?

[Akkatha]

Yep, sure they do. I'm not going to argue about it. I was confused, as were many other people in my store, especially considering that the store owner doesn't play or know much about the game.

As for the colour bands, it may seem obvious to you but it wasn't to me.

If I'm in the minority then that's fine, but if Wyrd are interested in making their marketing better and appealing to a wider range then my experience is a very valid one.

The game once you're playing it is probably the best tabletop miniatures game I've ever played, but to say that everything surrounding it is great would be a stretch.

[Tris]

Have to agree with @Akkatha, there is room for improvement regarding Malifaux Boxes (not only Malifaux, but all wyrd products - I point to the first Puppet Wars Box....).

The need for an explanation is usually no problem here, as there`s always someone in the local flgs who plays the game, but some people don`t want (or dare) to ask, and it would be nice if it were possible to improve the boxes

 

Also, more company to customer communication regarding new and planned (or delayed) releases would be nice, but that`s another story ^^

[Bengt]

1 hour ago, Akkatha said:

Yep, sure they do. I'm not going to argue about it. I was confused, as were many other people in my store, especially considering that the store owner doesn't play or know much about the game.

As for the colour bands, it may seem obvious to you but it wasn't to me.

If I'm in the minority then that's fine, but if Wyrd are interested in making their marketing better and appealing to a wider range then my experience is a very valid one.

The game once you're playing it is probably the best tabletop miniatures game I've ever played, but to say that everything surrounding it is great would be a stretch.

I started from the internet as there aren't any stores in my vicinity that sells Malifaux, and on the internet it's easy since pretty much all web stores organise all game lines by whatever is equivalent to factions. So I was thinking hypothetically, if one had to sort a pile of Malifaux products there are some visual markers to go by.

And I agree that the presentation side of Malifaux isn't that great. But I think for instance that having photos of painted models on the front instead of artwork would do more for the game than clearer faction marking on the boxes.

[Tris]

11 minutes ago, Bengt said:

And I agree that the presentation side of Malifaux isn't that great. But I think for instance that having photos of painted models on the front instead of artwork would do more for the game than clearer faction marking on the boxes.

Or maybe instead of the colourless renders on the back? 

[Bengt]

2 minutes ago, Tris said:

Or maybe instead of the colourless renders on the back? 

I like the renders.  Assuming you have to pick two (to fill two sides of a flat box), I'd pick painted models and renders (photos unpainted models would do as well) over art any day of the week.

[Tris]

Just now, Bengt said:

I like the renders.  Assuming you have to pick two (to fill two sides of a flat box), I'd pick painted models and renders (photos unpainted models would do as well) over art any day of the week.

I like the artwork, but yeah, there`s maybe no harm in getting renders and painted models on the box^^

[Seadhna]

I actually like grey renders more than GW photos.

Those painted minis are done by professional artists and serve to attract customers, but there's such a huge time/skill/cash investment gap between picking up a box and having minis that look like those on the box that it leaves me depressed (i'm a profoundly shitty painter myself, only having started the hobby). Less disappointment => more self-respect => more enjoyment of the game.

Still, expanding on the "box contents" text blurb might indeed be a good idea.

[sirbrokensword]

I have to say, as a new player, with 15+ years of wargaming experience, Malifaux isn't as easy to get into as I'd like.  I struggled to find any comprehensive model images overview.  I'm having a hard time learning about the factions, and the characters within.  Ultimatley I impulse purchased the box I did, which is super rare for me.   Honestly, I'm still kinda lost.  I got a digital rules manual, so hopefully there's some stuff in there.

 

Also, is there like a scheemes deck or print out?  I played a game and flipping the book to check on them was awful.

 

Also with guild, any suggestions on where to go from the Ortega box?

[Endalaus]

23 minutes ago, sirbrokensword said:

I have to say, as a new player, with 15+ years of wargaming experience, Malifaux isn't as easy to get into as I'd like.  I struggled to find any comprehensive model images overview.  I'm having a hard time learning about the factions, and the characters within.  Ultimatley I impulse purchased the box I did, which is super rare for me.   Honestly, I'm still kinda lost.  I got a digital rules manual, so hopefully there's some stuff in there.

 

Also, is there like a scheemes deck or print out?  I played a game and flipping the book to check on them was awful.

 

Also with guild, any suggestions on where to go from the Ortega box?

As far as images, if you go to the wyrd store, most of the released models images are shown on there. You can browse all the products and get an idea of what all the model renders look like.

As far as learning about the different factions and what's what, there are a few resources I would point you towards. 

http://pullmyfinger.wikispaces.com/ - This is a wiki site dedicated to summaries and tips to just about anything you'd need to know in the game. I'm pretty familiar with most things Malifaux and I still get on there to browse from time to time. It doesn't blatantly say all of the rules, but it'll give you some general ideas of what does what and some synergies and stuff to theorize with. 

Second, would be to get the rule book if you can afford them. There are 4 of them at the moment, but I am always looking through them to get ideas and research cards and factions. After a game it's one of the first places I go to take a look at things the opponent brought that may have surprised me. I like to see what it was that got me and how I can go about countering it in the future. 

Third, I'd say to get in touch with your community. As a Houstonian player, we have multiple outlets online to go to not only for tips and tricks but organizing game times etc. within the Houston Community. Some basics for you would be, A Wyrd Place and The Guild of Malifaux Groups on Facebook. Those are moth awesome resources as well with most people more than happy to answer any questions you might have. 

Lastly, I'd say the Wyrd website (Malifaux link) has some pretty good basic breakdowns for each faction as well as each master's card. This could give you at least a basic idea of what the box has and what strategies and stuff they employ.

For the schemes, there are 2 options for you.

Download the CrewFaux app on android device. They might have apple, but I am not sure. This app has all the schemes and strats for  GG2017 (the current tourny ruleset) as well as list building capabilities. 

Or go to http://www.wargamevault.com/product/201615/Gaining-Grounds-2017-Strategy-and-Scheme-Deck - and you can purchase the GG2017 physical deck. 
 

For addons to the Perdita box, I would start with the Brutal Emissary and Abuela. After that, I'd probably look into something like Pistoleros, or even the Nellie master box set. Reporters are very good for scheme running, and Nellie is actually another really competitive master. So you'd have some versatility in list building. Generally you're going to hear things like: Austringers, Sonnia Box, Brutal Effigy, Peacekeeper (maybe). There's honestly so many options.  

 

[Nikodemus]

10 minutes ago, sirbrokensword said:

Also, is there like a scheemes deck or print out?  I played a game and flipping the book to check on them was awful.

There's a strategies & schemes deck available for purchase: https://giveusyourmoneypleasethankyou-wyrd.com/collections/m2e-books-accessories/products/schemes-and-strategies-deck

I'd be cautious about diving into that though. It obviously varies group to group, but my group for example mainly plays with Gaining Grounds 2017 schemes (ie. "Tournament" schemes, found under Organized Play Formats: https://www.wyrd-games.net/resources). If I had bought the book s&s deck I'd be out 15$ for no good reason. I'm pretty sure you can find some free print versions of GG2017 scheme cards, but they're also commercially available from Wargame Vault: http://www.wargamevault.com/product/201615/Gaining-Grounds-2017-Strategy-and-Scheme-Deck

There's also an app called "CrewFaux" for both Android and iOS. Possibly for other operating systems as well. It includes all schemes for both core rulebook and GG.

[iamfanboy]

Frankly, I do like the renders as well, without colors - but there are some people to whom CGI renders of minis subconsciously says, "This is a placeholder, actual mini may differ." Just a note, something like, "Our minis are created with CAD and this image is a perfect representation" would help.

I mean... it's not a lot, is it? Just shrink the image on the back by 30% to include some info about what's in the box. Even the blurb from the Masters section of the website would fit neatly on those boxes.

If I were to name my gut feeling, it's that Wyrd markets to existing customers rather than trying to aggressively increase share. This isn't a bad thing. Wyrd minis are... well... not for beginners, and if the history of miniature companies is anything to go by, when they get too big they do silly things like cancel Henchman programs.

But it does mean that vital information is often spread out among the books. Imagine that you're reading the M2e book for the first time and bump across the Guild story. Who's Samuel? Why is this Sonnia lady spraying fire? So, there's this lady who can conjure a big monster and ride it?

Now I've READ the 1e books so it made perfect sense, but as a total newb picking up the book it would be complete nonsense. It's reading the last chapter of a long, long story first without any time to get invested in the characters or stakes. In other words, poor editing, not necessarily poor writing.

@sirbrokensword, Abuela and Brutal Emissary are good add ons; you'll probably also want some cheap minions for several of the missions so getting either Guild Hounds or Reporters or (if you want to stay in theme) Pistoleros de Latigo would be good. Just watch out for Abuela. She is REALLY HARD TO PUT TOGETHER. Put her legs and body together FIRST, and then put the wheelchair together around her... in theory. I still had to shave some of her off to get it all in there.

And don't forget, assemble as much as you can on the sprue first, gluing small chunks to larger chunks, and then separating it. There are two ways Malifaux minis go together: The hard way, and the impossible way.

[Bengt]

1 hour ago, iamfanboy said:

Frankly, I do like the renders as well, without colors - but there are some people to whom CGI renders of minis subconsciously says, "This is a placeholder, actual mini may differ." Just a note, something like, "Our minis are created with CAD and this image is a perfect representation" would help.

That would be a lie though, the models occasionally differ subtly from the renders. Typically it's undercuts that can't be cast in a binary mould and are changed somewhere along the production process.

[jerhien]

For expansion options;

Hoffman's Box (of metal and flesh) has hunters, a watcher, and a guardian in it all of which are excellent Guild models. 

A box of Austringers is a good idea, as is a Guild Pathfinder. Abuela Ortega is fantastic.

I'd pick up the Torch and the Blade box as well - Sonnia is another great master.

[Justin]

On March 13, 2017 at 11:57 AM, sirbrokensword said:

I have to say, as a new player, with 15+ years of wargaming experience, Malifaux isn't as easy to get into as I'd like.  I struggled to find any comprehensive model images overview.  I'm having a hard time learning about the factions, and the characters within.  Ultimatley I impulse purchased the box I did, which is super rare for me.   Honestly, I'm still kinda lost.  I got a digital rules manual, so hopefully there's some stuff in there.

 

Also, is there like a scheemes deck or print out?  I played a game and flipping the book to check on them was awful.

 

Also with guild, any suggestions on where to go from the Ortega box?

I would highly recommend the Torch and Blade box to anyone starting Guild. Sonnia is a top tier master and witchlings are universally good (and single piece models).

The two player starter isn't a bad idea either. 

[Astrella]

On 13/03/2017 at 6:43 AM, solkan said:

Please name a miniatures company which packages their models with the information you're asking for on the box.  And keep in mind how many skirmish games there are currently on the market.

Imagine that the Pull My Finger wiki exists with all of its explanations of the models, and the Two Player starter set exists.  What's supposed to go on the box?

 

Actually the old me1 boxes had that, had lore descriptions about the models and (what I personally found more important) painted up versions of them rather than renders.

[solkan]

On March 13, 2017 at 7:23 AM, Akkatha said:

I'm not trying to attack anyone here, just sharing my personal experience. I was interested in malifaux for over a year before I even bought a single thing. I would have jumped in much much quicker had there been any indication at all on the packages what I needed to play. Most games have a starter box, which M2E now has which is brilliant. However that was the first thing I bought, purely because I didn't have a sweet clue what to buy first.

Why did you assume I was attacking you by asking you a question?  That's not what I was trying to do.

I walk in to my friendly local game store, all of the war gaming boxes have about the same lack of information on them.  

On March 13, 2017 at 7:23 AM, Akkatha said:

Games Workshop is pretty self explanatory and I can go to their website and read a description of every single model they sell, where it will tell me the faction they're aligned to.

So you go to a website for the GW boxes, but don't go to a website for the Malifaux boxes?  This seems to imply that the problem is that Wyrd's website (the one that actually the useful information, rather than their main site) isn't as easy to find as GW's.  

On March 13, 2017 at 7:23 AM, Akkatha said:

Warmachine has starter boxes along with battlegroup boxes aimed at beginners which made it easy for me to try the game (hated it but at least I knew I bought the right thing!).

Compare the Privateer Press starter boxes to what you asked for.  You were talking about text on the outside of the box.

Malifaux has exactly one 2-Player Starter set, named that.  The boxes with masters in them aren't called or labeled "starter boxes", they're called "crew boxes" because they aren't "starter boxes".

On March 13, 2017 at 7:23 AM, Akkatha said:

Malifaux has none of this. The back of the crew boxes doesn't even tell you who the leader of the crew is. It seems incredibly basic to someone like you or I, who are invested in the game, but until someone tells you, its very difficult to work out. With the dreamer for example you'd look at the box and assume you're playing as a big, badass gribbly monster named Lord Chompy Bits!

The difference between that surprise and the surprise for any other wargame?  

On March 13, 2017 at 7:23 AM, Akkatha said:

With all the lore the game has and the amazing setting of Malifaux, a little blurb on the back of each box would go a long way towards increasing appeal.

As for what I'd put on the box, thats simple. Take for example the McMourning crew box. I'd have something like "Working as the Head Coroner for the Guild but moonlighting as a secret Ressurectionist, Dr Douglas McMourning performs his gruesome experiments with the help of his faithful assistant Sebastian, his manic nurses and a whole host of pox-ridden, zombified animal experients, including his favourite chihuahua! This box contains the master McMourning, who can lead either a Guild or Ressurectionist crew, Sebastian, two nurses, the zombie chihuahua and one canine remains." Its not perfect and I don't work in PR, but that should at least let you know whats in the box, what the flavour is and what faction the models are. Granted theres some obscurity between say hiring canaine remains in Guild, but you cant have everything.

Can you explain how any of that text informs your purchasing experience or addresses any of your concerns?

You're not addressing what any of the models do, what their play styles are, or why you would want a zombie chihuahua.  So what good would that text do you as a new player?

 

On March 13, 2017 at 7:23 AM, Akkatha said:

The pullmyfinger wiki is a marvellous resource, but it's not official

Is that your entire complaint concerning pullmyfinger, that it's not "official"?  Would your opinion be different if you knew that someone started it, and then got hired as a developer at Wyrd?

And can honestly say that the information on pullmyfinger isn't more useful than the comparable information you'd find on GW's website?