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Probably going to start the game, what's the balance like?


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So, I almost started this game about a year and a half ago.  But since I'm not very happy with my current game (warmachine) do to some balance issues and a change in the company philosophy I'm looking for a new miniatures game.  My #1-10 concerns are about balance.  I enjoy many games, but I'm a competitive person, and as such demand a game that I can actively try to break and it will still be ok.  It's in my DNA, I look at rules and try to break them.  If There's not a reasonable amount of balance between factions, and masters I'll just find another game.  Though, I have high hopes for malifaux. I love the idea that you build your crew after knowing schemes and opponents faction.

 

Basicly what I want to know is what's op, what's bad, and what is actually being used to win tournament games?  Anything to avoid?  What's the top of the curve, and how far ahead is it?

 

I'm super excited to be playing something new, I've played warmachine for 8 years.

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It's perfect! :-P

Kidding aside, the balance is solid and one of the things often praised by the community. With the complexity of a game like this it's very hard to get hard line on an answer, but tournament results seem to bear out that all Factions have a solid chance. It's generally accepted that there are a couple of Masters that are below par (though still very capable of winning) and a couple of Masters that are above... though I wouldn't say there's anything in that magical "S" tier. It's an A, B, and C, and a C can beat an A.

If I were trying to sell the game to you as a competitive player, I'm not sure there's any Master I'd tell you to definitely avoid if you want to win, so I think that's a good sign. 

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I've been playing for about 4 or 5 months now, with about 50 matches under my belt.

From personal experience, there's a whole lot depending on player skill (this includes both knowing how to spend your actions and in which order and knowing which models to take in a given set of schemes/strats), much less on random effects (bad flips can ruin your game, but that single thing you need to get done you will get done; if all else fails, you'll get at least a couple of VP off things that are independent of luck) and even less on pure balance numbers.

I'll elaborate on the latter point: there are almost no auto-take models in most factions (screw you, Doppleganger) and there are almost no never-take models. For a given scheme pool, you will always have a choice between several models that do the required thing well, after which you can pick ones that fit your playstyle or aesthetic preference or current whims. This is what I love about Malifaux: there are model choices that fulfill basically the same role, but with slight variations in numbers and approach to that role. In light of that, there's no such thing as "you need to get 6 Wave Serpents/3 Conquest core boxes/that card from the transport box to be competitive", you just need to get models that cover most of the scheme pool and learn to play better.

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Balance is good. Some people think the book 4 masters are slightly above average but I faced three of them, two for the first time in a tournament I was playing Lilith last week, also facing Hamelin who can be tough to face due to his thing being that he out activates you so you can't react to his moves in the turn he makes them and came away with three wins and a draw.

There can be tough individual match ups but player skill is a way higher determining factor than crew selection.

The picking crews after you see the scenario thing is great and with a full faction to choose from your opponent will struggle to pick a direct counter to you and will need to build for the strategy and schemes themselves.

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1 hour ago, Seadhna said:

... and there are almost no never-take models.

In general, I'd agree that balance is very good (much better than any miniatures game I've ever played in 20+ years), but the above statement I definitely would not sign.

There are quite a number of models which will never leave my shelf/case, but I also think that that's a bit much to ask, nothing is ever going to be in perfect equilibrium. And every so ften neglected models get a boost via FAQ or upgrades, so it's not a bad state of affairs.

I just think it's not quite fair to tell somebody that there are no never-take models, that's all.

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2 hours ago, Mutter said:

In general, I'd agree that balance is very good (much better than any miniatures game I've ever played in 20+ years), but the above statement I definitely would not sign.

There are quite a number of models which will never leave my shelf/case, but I also think that that's a bit much to ask, nothing is ever going to be in perfect equilibrium. And every so ften neglected models get a boost via FAQ or upgrades, so it's not a bad state of affairs.

I just think it's not quite fair to tell somebody that there are no never-take models, that's all.

See here's the thing: I can see myself taking some models over other models, but that's my personal preference.

Speaking from Outcast perspective, models I never use and would never use are Desperate Mercs,  Freikorpsmenn and Lady Ligeia.

Other models I personally very rarely use are A&D, Hans, Bishop, Killjoy, Vanessa, Rusty Alyce, Strongarm and Johan: hardly bad models, I just have alternatives that suit my own playstyle better. Every other model in the Outcast faction has a place in my games. These ones? I just like how other models play, is all. But there will be dozens of people saying that the ones I've listed above are very good choices.

So that's what, 3 strictly inferior models out of about 40? I call it "almost no never-take models". 

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2 hours ago, Mutter said:

In general, I'd agree that balance is very good (much better than any miniatures game I've ever played in 20+ years), but the above statement I definitely would not sign.

There are quite a number of models which will never leave my shelf/case, but I also think that that's a bit much to ask, nothing is ever going to be in perfect equilibrium. And every so ften neglected models get a boost via FAQ or upgrades, so it's not a bad state of affairs.

I just think it's not quite fair to tell somebody that there are no never-take models, that's all.

There are inefficient models, but they aren't really bad enough that you would automatically lose the game just because of them, unless of course you fill your whole crew with Alps or something. The worst you can expect is paying one soulstone more than the model is worth.

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There are definitely masters that are harder to play against and it becomes tempting to say OP (or conversely hard to play as, tempting to say "UP"), but there are often several different playstyles, each one fitting a different cluster of strats/schemes and crew configuration. In other words, you might get destroyed the first few games (and probably will) and begin to see counters or synergies that weren't so obvious at first.

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Hey man! I'm also a convert from Warmachine (PG, actually, until they axed the program) and I'd love to talk about the game a bit. 

The balance in Malifaux is interesting - there are things that are clearly above and below the power curve, but for the most part faction balance is very good. 

I'm on a tournament based podcast for the game called Bad Things Happen. Give it a listen - and if you have any more specific questions feel free to ask away.

 

https://www.facebook.com/badthingshappenpodcast/

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I realized no one answered your question about what's at the top of the curve.

 

The following are my opinions on masters alone.

Guild - Sonnia Criid, Perdita Ortega, Lucius. 

Key models - Francisco Ortega, Papa Loco, witchling stalkers, austringers.

Arcanists - Sandeep, Marcus, Ramos

Key models - Oxfordian Mages, Mech Rider, Myranda, Angelica with Malifaux Raptors.

Gremlins - Sommer, Ophelia, Ulix, Wong

Key models - Pigapult, stuffed piglets, mctavish.

Outcasts - Jack Daw, Hamelin, Leveticus

Key models - ashes and dust, Sue, Rusty Alice

Ressurectionists - Kirai, Nicodem, Molly

Key models - rotten belles, nurses, hanged

10 Thunders - Shen Long, Asami, McCabe

Key models - 10 Thunders Brothers, Sensei Yu, Ronin

Neverborn - Dreamer, Lillith, Pandora

Key models - Widow Weaver, primordial magic, doppleganger

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Thanks to everyone for helping answer some questions.  I'm downloading that netcast now jerhien.  It's not the right place, but let me thank you for the work you did as part of the "gang"  It meant alot to people like me, I'm sorry PP failed to recognize your value.

 

I'm super excited to discover balance seems to be really good.  I hate feeling like I'm competitively behind due to faction choice. As a result, I end up playing top tier stuff, not because I'm looking for an advantage, but rather I'm looking for a lack of a disadvantage.

 

Is there anywhere to go to get a look at the full model line?  I'm kinda trying to probe the aesthetics of the various factions and finding it difficult.

 

I'm a bit interested in the Gremlins, I have a soft spot for many of their silly models.  I'm concerned that they mention how random they are though, are they any good competitively?   I guess for those that know, I'm wondering if they are "random" like Trollbloods tough, or like Orks where you win or lose based on dice rolls?  I feel confident that if I can competitively play that pigapult I found my faction.  Otherwise, I'll keep looking.

 

 

Oh, also I wanted to know about decks and shuffling etiquette?   I came from Magic, where cheating and deck stacking was rampant. is anything done to combat that in tournaments and the like?

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19 minutes ago, sirbrokensword said:

Oh, also I wanted to know about decks and shuffling etiquette?   I came from Magic, where cheating and deck stacking was rampant. is anything done to combat that in tournaments and the like?

See the Rules Manual, page 14, "Cutting the Deck", and see also the Gaining Grounds document.

 

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49 minutes ago, sirbrokensword said:

I'm a bit interested in the Gremlins, I have a soft spot for many of their silly models.  I'm concerned that they mention how random they are though, are they any good competitively?   I guess for those that know, I'm wondering if they are "random" like Trollbloods tough, or like Orks where you win or lose based on dice rolls?  I feel confident that if I can competitively play that pigapult I found my faction.  Otherwise, I'll keep looking.

Gremlins are less "random" and more "controlled chaos". They have quite a few "must declare a trigger" actions where the outcome can be both good or bad (e.g. Bayou Gremlins, a cheap shooty model have the ability to deal double damage on their gun and they take half that damage, but they have to do it when that suit shows up), and they have quite a lot of powerful effects but with downsides, for example the Reckless ability that lots of models have where they can take damage to take an extra action on their turn. But while they do have a lot of self-harm and downsides, they have a lot of ways to mitigate those downsides or plan around them and that's what I find so fun about the faction. They inflict lots of damage on themselves, but they also have the best healing of all the factions, and they are often more tied to the whims of the deck, but they have lots of good ways to influence flips. I can totally see someone losing a game because of randomly flipping Dumb Luck and killing themselves, but then I think the times that comes up the game is close enough that a bad flip could have lost the game for any player (and the number of games I can remember that have literally come down to one flip in the couple of years I've been playing is maybe two). If you're in that situation it's a culmination of a lot of decisions that has lead to that point, not bad luck imo.

They're definitely competitively viable! The current UK #2 and #4 are both Gremlin players, and in my local area, Gremlins usually place pretty well in tournaments.

The Pigapult is also absurdly good in a couple of strategies when combined with summoning, so you can definitely use it competitively.

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8 hours ago, Nikodemus said:

@jerhien Is that just errata speaking or did you always value Lucius so highly?

If you don't mind expanding, why do you rate Ronin so highly in Ten Thunders specifically? They're Outcast mercenaries after all.

I didn't value him as highly before the Witchling Thralls came out - I thought he was good with them pre buff but he might be the best dig there graves master in the game. 

I think he's really good now.

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Thanks! The demise of the Press Gang has been a big hit. 

Gremlins are plenty competitive! They play with a lot of near deck manipulation mechanics, and they hit surprisingly hard. They're not terribly random (nothing like warhammer goblins) but they do have the hilarious antics angle going. 

 

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The Gremlins are goofy storyline-wise but deadly serious in gameplay.

So I've been doing a lot of Warmachine along with Malifaux lately and...

The balance in WM is awful. You've got the complete gamut from Rank S (Haley2) to Rank F (Blaize1), and the power gap is huge, and on top of that it feels as though some factions *cough*Cygnar*/cough* are developer darlings, with other factions being ignored - and some design decisions make no sense at all.

Malifaux has none of those problems. Almost everything is IMHO Rank A and B, with one or two models dipping into Rank C. Each faction is treated equally; last year they released one new Master for each faction and each one is reasonably equal to the others.

There are also a wide variety of models that fill the same role, but do so uniquely. For example, Scheme runners (models that move fast and drop markers to achieve VPs) are common. The Neverborn has three different models (Silurid, Insidious Madness, and Terror Tot) which are good at scheme running, but each has its own unique flavor: Silurids can move and attack very far, Madnesses lower enemy Willpower and can move through terrain, and Tots can grow into more threatening models.

Also, Warmachine is basically one game mode: Assassination with Capture The Flag as a tiebreaker if you can't kill the other person. Every GAME of Malifaux is unique: sometimes you need to move into the center, sometimes it's table quarters, with additional Vp-earning Schemes like trying to kill their most valuable non-Master model or put Scheme Markers up against buildings in the enemy side of the table.

 

Negatives of Malifaux: The miniatures. Yes, they're beautiful, are all plastic (so tired of metal minis), and my brush has rarely been so inspired than when moving across their surface, but good spirits above are they among the most difficult kits I've ever had to put together. I almost THREW Abuela Ortega across the room last night. I seriously wonder sometimes if the guy who designs them in CAD has ever even tried to put one of his minis together.

Sometimes there are 'gotcha' moments, because even Minion models can be Warcaster-level complicated and the amount of choices available to a Master are awe inspiring. Tonight my Gremlin-playing friend didn't realize just how hard it is to kill Colette and took Assassinate as a Scheme over much more achievable Schemes that were available. Yes, a rookie mistake, but sometimes rookie mistakes can be horrible early NPEs.

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Looking at tournament results you find the player names are the common factor of who is winning events, not so much the faction they are playing, which does go to show that there is a fairly good balance between factions (Or at least that every Faction can be competitive in the hands of a good player). 

All masters can win games. Some masters are better than other masters at some things, and this may mean than master a will win a wider variety of games than master b, but there will be match ups where master b is a better choice. 

Different people have different views on what is Op and what is below par.  

 

Gmort is one of the best places to take a look at most the sculpts, he doesn't have them all, but has unboxed a lot of the range. 

http://gmortschaotica.blogspot.co.uk/p/unboxing-malifaux.html

Failing that the web store out to have links to every model released. 

 

Gremlins can have a lot of randomness, but a lot of that is things that you as a player can control a lot of the time. (For example an un-accompanied pig has to change soemthing, hioch might be your crew, but you can stop that by havign a gremlin near it, or justr not havign any models near enough for it to charge, Or the bayou gremlins have to always declare a trigger when they shoot. Some of those triggers are bad, but the faction as a whole has several ways to add suits to their total to allow you to make sure you don't have to declare the bad ones in dedition to you having a control hand to cheat if those suits coem up, and you can't stop them.)

The pigapult has some great games, but some weaknesses. It is a very good way to move models around for games like interference and Reconnoter, and it has the potential to shoot a lot of the board ignoring line of sight, but its best attack requires you to asacrifice your own models to it, and its main defence is Armor, which can get ignored by a lot of crews. 

 

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2 hours ago, iamfanboy said:

Sometimes there are 'gotcha' moments, because even Minion models can be Warcaster-level complicated and the amount of choices available to a Master are awe inspiring. Tonight my Gremlin-playing friend didn't realize just how hard it is to kill Colette and took Assassinate as a Scheme over much more achievable Schemes that were available. Yes, a rookie mistake, but sometimes rookie mistakes can be horrible early NPEs.

Trying to avoid all those gotchas is one of my main goals when playing with newbies. "This guy messes with this particular scheme in this particular way" - "This beater has *extends ruler* this much threat range" etc.. I never avoid them all, too many details in a typical game, but it seems to result in better games when people are roughly aware of what all my things can do and deny.

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In regards to gotchyas....

The entire game is about Gotchyas. With so many rules per given model it kind of has to be. 

Treat everything like a Bronzeback. Ask about defensive abilities constantly.

 

My only real negative thing to say about Malifaux is that there are too many ways for things to get around rules - for instance the proliferation of non-gun symbol ranged attacks has started to drive the value of cover down a bit... Bit it's still enjoyable and interesting and I think you'll like it if you try it out.

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1 hour ago, jerhien said:

In regards to gotchyas....

The entire game is about Gotchyas. With so many rules per given model it kind of has to be. 

Treat everything like a Bronzeback. Ask about defensive abilities constantly.

 

My only real negative thing to say about Malifaux is that there are too many ways for things to get around rules - for instance the proliferation of non-gun symbol ranged attacks has started to drive the value of cover down a bit... Bit it's still enjoyable and interesting and I think you'll like it if you try it out.

I would say there is a lot more to the game than just "gotcha" moments. I agree that just about every model can seem to have a Gotcha moment or two when you first face them, the game plays well after you have seen all these moments. It may just take you a very long time to know what all the other models can do. 

 

As a general rule a (1):ranged  attack is probably more powerful than a similar attack without the :ranged. So you might have the choice of the stronger attack that might have some downsides, or the weaker but more consistent attack. 

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