Brewmaster in tournaments

[Jafar]

I saw many topics regarding Brewmaster. Many people say it's weak, bad etc.

But I assume some people play him Can you share your 50ss lists and schemes & strategies that suit Brewmaster and his crew?
My idea would be to have Brewmaster and some hitter in middle, iron skitter and Burt at one flank to kill enemy scheme runners & place schemes. Rest models should be chosen to suit my enemy and schemes.  

 

So I challenge you give me best Brewmaster lists

 

[Eorek]

Once was quite successfull playing brewmaster vs ulix(obeying his warpigs to charge stuff was fun)
But overall I think brewmaster has better use in ten thunders. 

Stuff you should look to add to a brew master list would be stuff that can charge as a (1) action such as roosters or warpigs making them charge as part of a binge or a obey.(That being said I'd rather bring zoraida for it)
Trixiebelle would be a solid choice since she can give a model a huge poison condition turn one if you have a high card on hand, but also she can cheat initiative which is super important for keeping brewmaster alive by starting his drinking contest early. 
And if you are running him as gremlins you might aswell include Wesley.
If you insist on running a tri-chi theme I'd said stay away from moon shinobi and take Fermented river monks instead. 
Fingers with The upgrade that causes friendly tri-chi models to double their healing flips is quite solid as a scheme runner/healer, Put him close to a whiskey golem with it's 0-upgrade and it actually becomes quite survivable. 

A fun but maybe not so viable combo if you want to make a theme list is Trixie, Akaname and two fermented river monk
- turn one trixie gives the akaname a high poison condition.
- After that you use the akaname to give the monks poison condition to give them higher df, Reactivate etc

A turn could look like this:
- Monk activates with poison +3(he'll most likely get atleast one more poison) or +4. strikes twice, Does the (0) for reactivate.
- Second monk does the same. 
- When you start to need it the Akaname can spray the monks with his ranged attack for additional poison(sometimes you have to do this before you activate the second monk as the first one might be exposed.)
- reactivate a monk, Use poison +2 for drunken strength, Hit once more  and get poison +1, do (0) to get +1 poison and get back to the +2 poison DF bonus
- Do same thing with second monk
(As I said: this is a fun combo to pull off, but so many things can go wrong. So I wouldn't really call it tournament viable)

[Runeman]

On ‎07‎-‎03‎-‎2017 at 5:49 AM, Eorek said:

If you insist on running a tri-chi theme I'd said stay away from moon shinobi and take Fermented river monks instead. 

Seeing as you have to pay 2 stones for an upgrade to hire Fermented River Monks, I think Moon Shinobi is the better choice as they will essentially cost the same amount of stones. In particular because of Drunken Gremlin Kung-Fu - it can really mess with the opponent and it allows Brewmaster to buff them considerably.

I think Moon Shinobi are essentially better then Fermented River Monks as the difference in price also suggests. On top of that, I think it is better to use them If one usually plays Gremlins, as they will be available in other crews, and it is good to learn how to use them.

[Eorek]

Fun hearing from someone who prefers the Moon shinobi, I've never meet anyone that had anything good to say about them. Could you share some insight?

Personally I've always found that the monks and shinobi are quite identical statwise(Sway puts the monks on the same DF) 

Even their Main attacks are quite similar:
Drunken fists of fury, Ml5/Rst DF or WP/Rg:1"  2/3/4
Fermented fists, Ml5(crow)/rst: DF or WP/Rg:1" 2/3/4

I think where the monk pulls ahead of the shinobi is the fact that it also get's positive effects from poison, without taking damage from it. 
That' plus the fact that it's triggers and (0) actions are in general better than the shinobi. (Reactivate is really good...) 

The only thing the shinobis have going for them is the drunken gremlin kung fu. But even if you manage to cheat in 2 severe cards on damage it's resource heavy and the monk with his built in trigger will do more damage on a weak damage than the shinobi did on severe. 

I just can't see a Shinobi out preforming monks, They'd need something that causes them no to take poison damage and maybe reckless in order for me to consider them over the monks. 
Sure you can take shinobis in a non brewie crew... but why would you ever pick them? I believe that even Bayou Bushwhackers would be a better choice with their critical strike frying pans. 

(2" engagement range is not half bad on the shinobi, but they fall behind on so much else)

That being said...Moon shinobis are amazing models and I try to field them as much as I can, but I cannot see their worth. 

[Lindsey]

Don't forget the added bonus of being able to quote this movie the entire time you are playing those Shinobi! You can't do that with just any monk  

[Eorek]

... sorry for my ignorance... but where is that from?

[Lindsey]

No worries, its from Drunken Master. One of my favorite Kung Fun movies of all time, and one of Jackie Chan's first big roles. It's on Netflix if you have it. It'll really get you fired up to play the Brewmaster's crew. 

[Eorek]

Looks like I've found tonights entertainment.

[Runeman]

I am in no way an expert on the Moon Shinobi, but I have been using them in several games recently. Also I have never used the Fermented River Monks, so my thought are merely first impressions from looking at their cards.

First there are a couple of points I disagree on:

13 hours ago, Eorek said:

The only thing the shinobis have going for them is the drunken gremlin kung fu. But even if you manage to cheat in 2 severe cards on damage it's resource heavy and the monk with his built in trigger will do more damage on a weak damage than the shinobi did on severe. 

The weak damage of the Monks does not exceed severe damage of the Shinobi, rather it equals it, but only if the Monks expend their primary resource.

And the Shinobi have more things going for them. Mainly they have a defensive trigger that allows them to push and they have an easy way to get access to +flips when in a Brewmaster crew, making the defensive trigger more likely. But they also have other ways of getting pushes which can be really good depending on terrain and strategy. 

13 hours ago, Eorek said:

Sure you can take shinobis in a non brewie crew... but why would you ever pick them? I believe that even Bayou Bushwhackers would be a better choice with their critical strike frying pans. 

With their defensive trigger, they are very good candidates for a mobile Som'er crew. If you don't mind taking a bit of damage on them, charging them with a piglet can allow both to relocate very quickly, in the ideal case both will end up more than 18" from their starting point. So they offer something special to him. In rare cases their defensive trigger can also work well with Zoraida allowing them to push after she obeyed them. But I agree that you shouldn't bring them unless you have some way on capitalizing on their special kind of mobility or on Drunken Gremlin Kung-fu.

In summary the Shinobi have a few things going for them:

• 2" engagement range
• Defensive trigger
• Less dependent on activation order/special resources
• Pushes
• Slightly better direct interaction with Brewmaster (Swilling one can really make it a nuisance)
• And finally who doesn't want to turn the opponents hard/impossible to wound (as well as a few other defensive abilities) into a liability rather than a defense

And they have a few negatives:

• Less damage (depending on resources) - my experience with Moon Shinobi is that they consistently do 3 or 4 damage per hit without having to cheat the damage, but the Monks can probably do a bit more if you want to expend their poison.
• No reactivate (and this can be very important)
• Takes damage from poison

In my opinion, the positives outweigh the negatives by quite a margin, but I guess a lot of that is up to play style. I think the pushes and the 2" engagement range gives them a lot more tactical options and the defensive trigger, in particular when combined with swill makes them worse targets for a charge.

[Eorek]

36 minutes ago, Runeman said:

I am in no way an expert on the Moon Shinobi, but I have been using them in several games recently. Also I have never used the Fermented River Monks, so my thought are merely first impressions from looking at their cards.

First there are a couple of points I disagree on:

The weak damage of the Monks does not exceed severe damage of the Shinobi, rather it equals it, but only if the Monks expend their primary resource.

And the Shinobi have more things going for them. Mainly they have a defensive trigger that allows them to push and they have an easy way to get access to +flips when in a Brewmaster crew, making the defensive trigger more likely. But they also have other ways of getting pushes which can be really good depending on terrain and strategy. 

With their defensive trigger, they are very good candidates for a mobile Som'er crew. If you don't mind taking a bit of damage on them, charging them with a piglet can allow both to relocate very quickly, in the ideal case both will end up more than 18" from their starting point. So they offer something special to him. In rare cases their defensive trigger can also work well with Zoraida allowing them to push after she obeyed them. But I agree that you shouldn't bring them unless you have some way on capitalizing on their special kind of mobility or on Drunken Gremlin Kung-fu.

In summary the Shinobi have a few things going for them:

• 2" engagement range
• Defensive trigger
• Less dependent on activation order/special resources
• Pushes
• Slightly better direct interaction with Brewmaster (Swilling one can really make it a nuisance)
• And finally who doesn't want to turn the opponents hard/impossible to wound (as well as a few other defensive abilities) into a liability rather than a defense

And they have a few negatives:

• Less damage (depending on resources) - my experience with Moon Shinobi is that they consistently do 3 or 4 damage per hit without having to cheat the damage, but the Monks can probably do a bit more if you want to expend their poison.
• No reactivate (and this can be very important)
• Takes damage from poison

In my opinion, the positives outweigh the negatives by quite a margin, but I guess a lot of that is up to play style. I think the pushes and the 2" engagement range gives them a lot more tactical options and the defensive trigger, in particular when combined with swill makes them worse targets for a charge.

I see. For me reactivate was the definite dealbreaker. Getting an extra activation out of them litetally doubles their effectiveness.

But as i said in my initial post... i am sad to say i'd never bring either to a tournament

At 6 p you can instead get a rooster rider. Cast swill on your intended target and then obey a rooster rider to charge and that feathered monstrosity will bring some pretty sweet carnage

Or better yet. Go 10t and get access to yadunori

[Math Mathonwy]

Moon Shinobis are fun against Riders - attack against Wp and you'll bypass the Df Trigger and get positive twists to Attack courtesy of Stubborn  

Yin also appreciates Moon Shinobis!

But really, taking Brewie is a fun choice. I don't think that he is optimal for anything but if you're more skilled, you'll win with him. And Moon Shinobis are a bit lacking but they aren't actively horrible. You won't lose because you took them but there are better choices.

[Macumazahn]

Look, Brewmaster is my favorite master, but choosing him in a competitive level is a waste of time or, to be more precise, a handicap, especially against guild.

Sammy works very, very well with the brewmaster, so does the sow. Apart from that I recommend monsters with very high severe damage like François and Raphael.

In any case the crews that have worked better with me, are the ones that can be used with almost any other master: basic gremlin stuff, no fluffy Tri Chi models or any of that.

 

Edited March 15, 2017 by Macumazahn
added informartion

[Math Mathonwy]

7 minutes ago, Macumazahn said:

Look, Brewmaster is my favorite master, but choosing him in a competitive level is a waste of time or, to be more precise, a handicap, especially against guild.

Sammy works very, very well with the brewmaster, so does the sow. Apart from that I recommend monsters with very high severe damage like François and Raphael.

In any case the crews that have worked better with me, are the ones that can be used with almost any other master: basic gremlin stuff.

 

Yeah, this is a good point that I forgot to mention in my post - taking both Moon Shinobis and Brewmaster is probably too much a handicap! Use Basic Gremlin stuff with Brewie and you'll do a lot better. Also, focus on Swill and forget about the bubble and Poison as much as possible.

[Dogmantra]

On Moon Shinobis: they have one of the best defensive triggers in the game. One of the reasons Som'er is considered so powerful is the ridiculous Loudest Squeel, and Moon Shinobis have a version that is almost identical, the only difference being it's a 3" push instead of a 4". They're pretty silly against Resurrectionists in some cases, like Math says, Yin "loves" them, and she turns up all the flipping time in 10T and Ressers at least locally, and they ofc like Hard & Impossible to Wound, and wave 4 has a few new masters with lower Df but Impossible to Wound, so that's good. I find they tend to drain cards from opponents more than you'd think because it's not sufficient to just get close to a Shinobi's attack flip to avoid taking lots of damage. I am definitely a Shinobi fan, but at the end of the day I do find it hard to justify them over Burt or Francois for just a couple of extra stones or a Lightning Bug for 1 stone less. I think deliberately poisoning them is a waste of time though tbh. Bringing one with Zoraida is always fun, your inevitable Nurse can give them Downers and turn them into a fairly unkillable monster.

On Fermented River Monks: one thing that hasn't been mentioned is the lack of Gremlin/Pig characteristic which is a point against them (although in a Brewie Crewie not so much as a general Gremlin model, since Som'er & Ulix aren't going to be around, and there's at least access to Brewmaster's healing to make up for no Sloppy healing). Reactivate is nice, but they can only reliably generate 2 poison on themselves per activation (3 if you want to ditch a card) which means if you're wanting to use it every turn you're going to need to hit them with your own models to give them poison and there are imo better uses of your AP, particularly because models that hand out only poison and don't deal damage are generally the really expensive ones - Fingers, Brewmaster and Trixiebelle. Looking them over I do want to use them now, they're cool models, but not in Gremlins just because taking that 2 stone upgrade feels like such a waste.

 

On Brewmaster himself: I agree with the sentiment that you should go for a "Swill and Kill" style of crew more so than focusing on poison and drinking contest (with the recent errata making Sensei Yu able to drinking contest I think it's probably worth a go in 10T). He's been a bit of a project for me recently now that I basically admitted I just don't get Wong and I decided to work on getting good at some of the lesser played masters. I think he's better than people give him credit for. Ca7 is silly good on Hangover.

[Math Mathonwy]

4 hours ago, Dogmantra said:

Brewie Crewie

I had to stop here to say this aloud a few times. "Brewie crewie."

4 hours ago, Dogmantra said:

On Brewmaster himself: I agree with the sentiment that you should go for a "Swill and Kill" style of crew more so than focusing on poison and drinking contest (with the recent errata making Sensei Yu able to drinking contest I think it's probably worth a go in 10T). He's been a bit of a project for me recently now that I basically admitted I just don't get Wong and I decided to work on getting good at some of the lesser played masters. I think he's better than people give him credit for. Ca7 is silly good on Hangover.

If you do get him to work, let us know! I tried for a while but gave up - I just found him really frustrating in the long run. I'll use him every once in a while but he just didn't work for me as an extended project.

[Runeman]

Having looked at the Moon Shinobi again and considered the newish strategies, I consider them to be very good in a Brewmaster crew. Empirically they do 4 damage about half of the strikes that connect and three on the other half, I have had more hits with BJ damage than I've had doing weak damage. So in my opinion they hit above their paygrade with no real negative related to their attacks.

But what really makes them shine is that Brewmaster can use a low crow to give them 2 poison and +-flips to everything if he is within 2". the +-flips can be huge, but the poison allow other nearby Shinobi to push 4" towards them as a (0) and more importantly in three of the common strategies it gives a huge flexibility as you get to push after the opponent has moved all of their models but before scoring, in interference it means you can select a table quarter if well-positioned, but also that you might be able to engage more than one of your opponents pieces due to having 2" engagement range, this can really force your opponent to position awkwardly or risk being denied, in the other strategies it is slightly less valuable, but in extraction and guard the stash, they can still use that flexibility. It is definitely not the same as reckless, but it does have it's own merits as an ability. Add to this that for Claim Jump and Leave Your Mark the mere presence of enemies can deny your scoring, and they have the ability to make your opponent work quite a bit harder for his or her points.

I would like to add, that I am neither very experienced nor very good, so take from this what you want.

In a recent game with Brewmaster against Reva, my opponent unburied Killjoy and Bete Noire around the center of the board as part of his first action in turn 2. I ended up losing one of my three Shinobi early that turn, but not until it had done some damage to Killjoy, and as the final action of the turn, I managed to kill Killjoy and Bete Noire (Killjoys Black Blood) with another Moon Shinobi. As Brewmaster had given Bete Noire a drink, she was not able to concentrate enough to come back, and he had kindly asked her to stand right next to Killjoy but only after she had been taken to town by my third Moon Shinobi. In turn 3 both Shinobi ended up engaging a slightly drunk and somewhat bruised Reva, and turn 4 Brewmaster kindly poured her another one before the Shinobi escorted her home. There was at least three times that games where I flipped four cards on their damage flip, that is not something that happens very often with other models.

I don't pretend to think this is how they will always perform, but they do tend to dish out a lot more damage than people think and they are not too card intensive when paired with Brewmaster.

Edit: This post was partially inspired by Joels recent blog, where he urges us newer players to try to shake things up a bit before going with conventional wisdom.

[KaijuS]

 

On 3/29/2017 at 7:38 AM, Runeman said:

 

I don't pretend to think this is how they will always perform, but they do tend to dish out a lot more damage than people think and they are not too card intensive when paired with Brewmaster.

 

Isn't that what makes them non-competitive? A model not performing consistently great is what makes it not a viable choice.

But yeah, in a casual game Brewmaster is plenty fun!

Normally I take one Moon Shinobi and one Fermented River Monk, as I like them both, but I think I normally have more luck with the Monk.

 

My normal Brewmaster Tends to be:

Brewmaster

Wesley

Whisky Golem

Ferment River Monk

Moon Shinobi

 

and then I rotate between

Fingers

Old Major

and Trixie

Taking 2 of them

[Math Mathonwy]

On 3/31/2017 at 0:44 AM, KaijuS said:

My normal Brewmaster Tends to be:

Brewmaster

Wesley

Whisky Golem

Ferment River Monk

Moon Shinobi

 

and then I rotate between

Fingers

Old Major

and Trixie

Taking 2 of them

Using Fermented River Monks on the Gremlin side seems like a bit of a waste since you need a costly Upgrade to hire them and the Action you get from it is pretty situational to say the least. Full disclosure: I haven't tried it in GG17 so maybe it's better these days. Still, taking just one Fermented River Monk seems really expensive. Though I must agree with you that they are fun!

Old Major seems like an unorthodox choice - why him? And without any other Pigs?

My main problem with Moon shinobis is that they are quite squishy, especially if they start messing around with Poison. And if they don't them having only two AP (with Gremlins I suppose that counts as a weakness) kinda lets them down a bit, I feel. That said, I don't think they are bad! They have very unique stuff going on that can really wreck the day of some enemies. And Runeman's point of the extra movement being more potent in GG17 than it was before is a good one.

[KaijuS]

16 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Old Major seems like an unorthodox choice - why him? And without any other Pigs?

Mainly for saddle, he can get Brewmaster and Fingers where they need to be way quicker.

16 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

My main problem with Moon shinobis is that they are quite squishy, especially if they start messing around with Poison. And if they don't them having only two AP (with Gremlins I suppose that counts as a weakness) kinda lets them down a bit, I feel. That said, I don't think they are bad! They have very unique stuff going on that can really wreck the day of some enemies. And Runeman's point of the extra movement being more potent in GG17 than it was before is a good one.

And yeah, I really wish they would get the same treatment as the Fermented Monks, being immune to poison's negative effects.

It isn't meant for competitive play, just a fun Tri-Chi(mostly) list. 

[daniello_s]

20 minutes ago, KaijuS said:

And yeah, I really wish they would get the same treatment as the Fermented Monks, being immune to poison's negative effects.

^ This

[Math Mathonwy]

20 hours ago, KaijuS said:

Mainly for saddle, he can get Brewmaster and Fingers where they need to be way quicker.

Wouldn't Gracie work better in that role due to her easier access to Reactivate, and Unimpeded? Oh, and since her durability is more about her Armor rather than lots of Wounds, she makes better use of Healing as well, which is nice in a Brewski crew?

20 hours ago, KaijuS said:

And yeah, I really wish they would get the same treatment as the Fermented Monks, being immune to poison's negative effects.

Yes! Heck, they could heal from Poison (Embalmed would work as an Ability name, even  ) and they still wouldn't be anywhere near overpowered.

20 hours ago, KaijuS said:

It isn't meant for competitive play, just a fun Tri-Chi(mostly) list. 

I don't think that it is necessarily all that far from a "competitive" Brewmaster list, though  

[Four_N_Six]

I'm biting the bullet here.  Tournament coming up on the 30th and I've decided to run Brewmaster for all 3 rounds.  I'm determined to at least make this fun (I never do extremely well in these things anyways).

[Nikodemus]

Post tournament musings will be appreciated.

[wizuriel]

anyone try akaname?

[KaijuS]

14 hours ago, wizuriel said:

anyone try akaname?

Hoping to soon, just gotta get them built and I'll get a friend to help me rest then out

On 4/3/2017 at 2:04 AM, Math Mathonwy said:

Wouldn't Gracie work better in that role due to her easier access to Reactivate, and Unimpeded? Oh, and since her durability is more about her Armor rather than lots of Wounds, she makes better use of Healing as well, which is nice in a Brewski crew?

I was using Gracie until I got the ulix box! I think my reasoning for switching her out was Gracie has a slower walk and higher point cost. 

I'll give a few more games with Gracie a try to see which I prefer.

i appticiate the advice!

On 4/3/2017 at 2:04 AM, Math Mathonwy said:

Yes! Heck, they could heal from Poison (Embalmed would work as an Ability name, even  ) and they still wouldn't be anywhere near overpowered.

We can dream.  I would probably drop the river monks if they did that!