Nice Hamelin

[scarlett fever]

So I've decided to swap over to Hamelin from my usual Thunders for an upcoming league. I'm pretty excited after one game, where I got decimated by a new player with Rasputina after taking a pretty much solely rat based list, but I learned a heap. With new crews I like to just get them the table then read their cards properly after the fact. But that's beside the point, sort of.

When I play games against new players I like to take lists that will challenge me, be fun to play against but will make me work hard to get VP. I'm a fairly erratic player in general and can flip from top of the pile to the bottom depending on whether I'm trying out weird/fun stuff, playing hard or just generally making a mess.

My concerns are that Hamelin has a reputation as an NPE and I don't want to put anyone off. A couple of our new players look they'll be kicking my proverbial soon enough but there are a couple of unknown players and I don't want to give them bad games, but want to challenge myself at the same time. It's also good to just to develop lists just for new players in general that showcase Masters without stomping the opponent. I have a bunch of tactics for this in Thunders but Hamelin is unkown to me. So what's some good ideas for challenging lists and tactics (for me) that won't make my opponent groan with despair, especially if I start to get the hang of him?

Off the bat I can see that I should concentrate on activating and transforming rats as quickly as possible. Just pointing to a rat and saying 'that rat activates, over to you' without making it do anything seems solid advice. I can also see 'The Piper' upgrade being an auto-take for me, so removing this access to Obey might be a good tactic. Also no Killjoy, Deso or Ashes etc.

What other ideas do people have?

Of course I could just totally bomb for 20 games running (wouldn't completely put it past me) while newbies roflstomp me and then I won't even require your wisdom.

[Virtus]

I believe Hamelin's reputation as a NPE is unwarranted. He's a Master known to use multiple insignificant minions and only has a cache of one SS. Once opponents face an experienced Hamelin player that isn't taking forever making rats, then the idea of him being a NPE tends to go away. Thankfully, I've only had one person complain about Hamelin to me, and they eventually got over it because I ended up playing against him multiple times with Hamelin. Personally, I consider my opponent purposely not playing a Master to the best of their ability a NPE, but I digress... 

'The Piper' and 'The Plague' tend to be auto-include upgrades for Hamelin. One for Obey/ no-charge aura, and the other for ranged blight. If you're really worried about Hamelin's reputation as NPE, I'd suggest leaving one or both of those upgrades off.

I view Hamelin as a VP denial Master. I look at the strategy and schemes and determine if Hamelin can stop/ hinder my opponent from most of them, then play around what he can't mess with. Another option for you may be to make sure the strategies and schemes are hard for Hamelin to deny.

[Starrius]

I believe the NPE aspect of Hamelin isn't so much the rat engine it's the lack of being able to do anything about it.

 

after playing as Hamelin and vs other players I am starting to think the NPE aspects are more for things you can't stop.

 

so for Hamelin this is the fact you get to do all your activations after they have done everything so they can't stop it.

Viktoria's is the same because once they start they cycle it feels like you can't do anything against it.

Zipp with Francoix again is a bit of a NPE because of the companion.

 

I think these are the things can can bring more NPE effect into the game than just the masters style. 

 

For me Hamelin isn't a NPE because after turn one the rat engine is more a side thing than the thing that means you can't react because by then if they want to use all their activations on the rat engine I'm already engaged.

[scarlett fever]

4 hours ago, Virtus said:

Personally, I consider my opponent purposely not playing a Master to the best of their ability a NPE, but I digress...

I agree, I would never purposely throw a game but I've played a lot of beginner/demo games and games versus casual players over the last few years which is why I set myself up with harder lists in those situations. I think it's respectful to your opponent to play strongly but equally not fair to put yourself in the position where you can obliterate them.

Against a new Levi player I took an Austringer one time, the rest of the list was pretty soft but I regretted the choice of the Austringer as soon as we started playing. My opponent was gracious but I felt like a dick.

There do seem to be a couple of approaches to gaming I come across, the competitive gamer, of which you're obviously one, as am I, doesn't tend to have the same sense of NPE from getting stomped, even in their early games, as long as the opponent isn't gloating. That's just a cue to play harder and learn from your mistakes.

Your points about Strats and Schemes are also relevant, which do you think he struggles at? My one game was Interferrence. I can see your point about all the peons would be significant in Reconnoiter in particular.

 

3 hours ago, Starrius said:

I believe the NPE aspect of Hamelin isn't so much the rat engine it's the lack of being able to do anything about it.

 

after playing as Hamelin and vs other players I am starting to think the NPE aspects are more for things you can't stop.

 

so for Hamelin this is the fact you get to do all your activations after they have done everything so they can't stop it.

Viktoria's is the same because once they start they cycle it feels like you can't do anything against it.

Zipp with Francoix again is a bit of a NPE because of the companion.

 

I think these are the things can can bring more NPE effect into the game than just the masters style. 

 

For me Hamelin isn't a NPE because after turn one the rat engine is more a side thing than the thing that means you can't react because by then if they want to use all their activations on the rat engine I'm already engaged.

Good points. I've played against Hamelin a few times and the only NPE I would personally get from playing against him is the same against any master and that's slow play (of which I have been guilty of at times). Games that drag make me loose my interest and focus.

The set up for alpha-strike is something avoid in beginner games. It can be a huge game changer and against newer opponents can basically shut down their game and they don't get to learn their models. It's something Thunders have access to in a different capacity but I'm guessing the strength of Hamelins activation control will lean this way.

Interesting you think the activation control is not so relevant after turn one. Whilst it's not so dramatic it still felt fairly important in later turns. You'd get the all things off you needed at the beginning of the turn and then had the ability to delay between other important activations as the game progressed.

[Freman]

NPE is obviously a subjective experience. Playing against Titania can be perceived as NPE until you learn that spreading out, or having your own units capable of eating her markers (like Parker) reduces her effectiveness.

I think, as said, NPE basically boils down to your opponent being able to do things that you can't affect or influence, particularly if it affects your models (Titania's aforementioned markers and passive auras that drain your hand quick smart if you're too bunched).

Hamelin has his rats, but they're not particularly powerful. He's not much of a beater himself, and any beaters he takes cost stones. The Rat Engine was bad with old Leveticus and the Viktorias because they could outactivate and then unleash two beaters onto your opponent. Restricted to Hamelin it's just what he does.

For myself, as I've stated frequently, I prefer to run Hamelin as an Obey focused summoner, with a few tricks from blight, rather than spend too much time trying to outactivate my opponent. Rat Kings are a reasonably good model, maybe not worth 8 stones to hire, but when they're effectively free they're okay. In that respect his crew ends up looking much like my other Outcast crews. A sniper or two, a librarian, a beater of some description, a couple of Winged Plague (Wyrd Twisted Imps) for scheme running. The only specifically Hamelin hires are a Stolen and the Obedient Wretch to get the summon engine going.

Hamelin's selling point for me is his flexibility. With Obey he can push his own units around. With Pipes he can draw enemy models out of formation and inflict Blight. With the right suited card and a stone he can summon. When Blight gets high enough he can even nuke enemy units with Bleeding Disease.

[SoylentRobot]

lol whats NPE mean

[Nikodemus]

Negative Play Experience. It's when your play experience feels negative.

[hydranixx]

On 2/28/2017 at 1:07 PM, Freman said:

NPE is obviously a subjective experience. Playing against Titania can be perceived as NPE until you learn that spreading out, or having your own units capable of eating her markers (like Parker) reduces her effectiveness.

Agreed. Everyone has their own pet peeve, their NPE, in this game. I imagine that some people might find Titania annoying even if the player is kind, humble and in good spirits, similar to Pandora perhaps? She seems to draw a fair amount of flak. I don't mind either of them, or Hamelin, but offensive Burying triggers the living hell out of me. Nothing is more painful and debilitating than playing against Tara, Hannah, Scion and Death Marshals all at the same time... Hamelin's tame compared to that... for me. Subjective.

@scarlett fever playing Hamelin in a reasonably well rounded and thematic crew will always make for a good game against newer players. New players feel good about the game when they see something unique happening on the board, more so than if they just happen to win. "Wait, those puny rats merged together into a giant mutated ball of rats? That's fucking awesome!" 

[Terwox]

When I'm playing Hamelin, if I want to advance with my rats, I'll have three rats walk up a the board, then have the Wretch throw a rat at one, which will activate and become a rat king.  (Or if I have two crows I'll throw two rats and skip an activation for the distance; you usually have plenty anyway.)

While my opponent takes their turn, I have a 30mm marker, and I measure where I will move one of my rats and place my marker there.  On my turn I move my rat.  (Obviously I don't do this if it's going to telegraph something, but it helps me avoid clumping my rats to where they can't spawn a rat king, and helps me plan where the cute little guy will spawn.)

I also use little red cubes to mark which of my models has moved -- I never did this til I played Hamelin but it's very helpful.

[scarlett fever]

2 hours ago, Terwox said:

 

While my opponent takes their turn, I have a 30mm marker, and I measure where I will move one of my rats and place my marker there.  On my turn I move my rat.  (Obviously I don't do this if it's going to telegraph something, but it helps me avoid clumping my rats to where they can't spawn a rat king, and helps me plan where the cute little guy will spawn.)

I also use little red cubes to mark which of my models has moved -- I never did this til I played Hamelin but it's very helpful.

That's a good idea. That's the only time I stop to consider my rat activations, my first game I got the order wrong and missed a rat king when I was planning for it. 

I've played for years but this is the first time I've used activation markers as well. I'm also going to use dice to Mark my rats wounds, another first. 

@hydranixx I agree on the Tara build. I know who's crew you're talking about and that crew is frustrating af when I lay down an elite thunders build. I've had worse times against Kirai though, ugh.

[hydranixx]

So I should lock in Kirai as my next master? 

After last night's games (and banter) with the new players, I wouldn't worry one second about overwhelming them with Hamelin. It sounds like they're enjoying the game win, draw or lose, as long as they get to run their mouths a bit and have a laugh. 

[Freman]

One of the good things about Malifaux, unlike something like Warhammer 40k, is that there are very few ways to have a completely one sided game. With 40k's I GO U GO system, if one player gets a very good turn they can cripple an opponent to the point that there's nothing that they can really do for the rest of the game. In Malifaux, with individual model activation, even when you lose (and my regular opponent is probably the best player in New Zealand, I lose a lot) your models will still have done something. It might be your Hodgepodge Emissary traipsing up and down the center-line dropping scheme markers while a Dead Outlaw intercepted a Waldgeist that was trying to interfere, or a Bandito gunning down The Gorer when it thought it was safe hiding beside a building, but those little things make the game fun even if you lose in the end.

That's why I'm glad Ratviticus and Ratoria were knocked on the head quickly.

[hydranixx]

2 minutes ago, Freman said:

(and my regular opponent is probably the best player in New Zealand)

Yesteryear, I would have agreed, but this is GG2017. The community and meta is developing dramatically; I'm not sure if anyone can be labelled 'best player' in Auckland let alone New Zealand. 

That's not to say your post is wrong, only that the game is growing in our humble corner of the world and that our meta is becoming more healthy. The rest of your post is entirely valid, and so much richness comes from the oddities. Last night's game exemplified this; Seamus throws his own spleen at 2 Rat kings and a Rat catcher and blows it up, fishing for the 5 damage, but they all passed their tests, and one of them puts Tail'Em on Seamus.

It was exactly the type of narrative that I love Malifaux for, and that I think all new players appreciate about it. 

[SoylentRobot]

11 hours ago, Freman said:

One of the good things about Malifaux, unlike something like Warhammer 40k, is that there are very few ways to have a completely one sided game. With 40k's I GO U GO system, if one player gets a very good turn they can cripple an opponent to the point that there's nothing that they can really do for the rest of the game.

As an aside, me and some chums play 40k with malifaux's alternating activation system. it makes the game a lot more fluid and tactical.

But anyway, I've only used my Hamelin once in a 4 player free for all (and that was with all four of us using a master we'd never used before, the game was Hamelin, Yan Lo, Ophelia and Collodi) so I'm going to get a few more games in with Hamelin.

[Virtus]

14 hours ago, hydranixx said:

Yesteryear, I would have agreed, but this is GG2017. The community and meta is developing dramatically; I'm not sure if anyone can be labelled 'best player' in Auckland let alone New Zealand. 

That's not to say your post is wrong, only that the game is growing in our humble corner of the world and that our meta is becoming more healthy. The rest of your post is entirely valid, and so much richness comes from the oddities. Last night's game exemplified this; Seamus throws his own spleen at 2 Rat kings and a Rat catcher and blows it up, fishing for the 5 damage, but they all passed their tests, and one of them puts Tail'Em on Seamus.

It was exactly the type of narrative that I love Malifaux for, and that I think all new players appreciate about it. 

Speaking of Tail 'Em, one of my last games against Gremlins had Tail 'Em and Frame for Murder in the pool. Looking at the schemes, I assumed my opponent would pick FFM on Francois, so I planned ahead and threw Crooligans in my list thanks to Hamelin's Sewer King upgrade. Sure enough, I saw Francois in my opponent's list so I went with my assumption and counterpicked with Tail 'Em. I ended up being right, Crooligans were putting in work with Tail 'Em on Francois, and my opponent ended up killing his FFM target himself so I couldn't score more points. It was awesome.

[trikk]

I think the NPE elent of Hamelin is not the rat so much the rat activations but the fact he is really hard to play against in certain scheme pools if you bring A&D and Nix.

[bertmac]

I played against Hamelin for only the second time at a tournament Saturday, my opponent was a really nice guy and just sped through his activations so as not to bog the game down. it was a great game which ended 9-9.