Headhunter + Heed my Voice

[Rathpex]

Hi All,

Had a game the other day where I used Hungering Darkness' ability Heed My Voice to remove a head marker for the strategy Headhunter.

Do I get the VP for the headmarker? we played that I did but I can see it going either way.

Relevant Text of Headhunter and Heed my Voice:

Quote

At the end of every Turn after the first, a Crew earns 1 VP if it removed at least one Head Marker from play that turn. 

Quote

Heed my Voice:

...Target enemy non-Leader immediately performs a (1) action chosen and controlled by this model's controller...

 

Is the correct answer 1 or 2?

1: Hunger Darkness' controller controlled the action to remove the head therefore gets the VP

2: The controlled model is still part of the crew who removed the head therefore hungering darkness has given the opponent a VP

 

Thanks in advance,

Rath

[tactician]

Rules Manual, pg. 23:

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Friendly and Enemy

Some rules reference friendly or enemy models. From a mechanical standpoint, friendly models are any models that are on the same Crew as the model the rule is affecting. Enemy models are any model that isn’t on the same Crew.

If a rule does not specifically state that it only affects friendly or enemy models (for instance legal targets for an Attack) then it can and does affect any model.

When a model’s Actions are controlled by the opponent (for instance with the Obey Action) the model does not change which models are considered friendly, its friends are still its friends.

Heed My Voice is an Obey-type action that doesn't change the affected model's Crew allegiance. Headhunter, as you quote, is scored by Crews, not model controllers.

Therefore, the correct answer is (2).

[EnternalVoid]

Pretty sure Solkan has it.  I do not believe Crew changes having the hungering darkness be the one controlling the action.  On page 19 of the description of what a crew is, they are the models.  Just because a different player is controlling the model does not mean the model changed what Crew it is on.  As per the call out box on page 30 on Who Flips?  "The Player who controls an action flips for the model.  This is usually the player who is in control of the model's Crew, but some actions (like Obey) will temporarily change who the controller of an Action is."  This suggests that the model still counts as as part of the Crew that hired it, even if its action is being controlled, just like how models keep who are friendly regardless of who controls the action.  So would think if you Obey someone to pick up the head marker, it is for the model that picked it up, not the one in control of the action.

[Fetid Strumpet]

8 minutes ago, EnternalVoid said:

Pretty sure Solkan has it.  I do not believe Crew changes having the hungering darkness be the one controlling the action.  On page 19 of the description of what a crew is, they are the models.  Just because a different player is controlling the model does not mean the model changed what Crew it is on.  As per the call out box on page 30 on Who Flips?  "The Player who controls an action flips for the model.  This is usually the player who is in control of the model's Crew, but some actions (like Obey) will temporarily change who the controller of an Action is."  This suggests that the model still counts as as part of the Crew that hired it, even if its action is being controlled, just like how models keep who are friendly regardless of who controls the action.  So would think if you Obey someone to pick up the head marker, it is for the model that picked it up, not the one in control of the action.

That's the correct interpretation. Just like if you control an enemy and try to take an interact you'll give them a scheme marker, and why you can't command an enemy to destroy their scheme markers, because their is no action that allows models to just generally destroy friendly scheme markers, only enemy.

[solkan]

9 minutes ago, Rathpex said:

Thanks for the response. While I am inclined to agree with your summation, I have just found this in the FAQ:

 

From this FAQ it indicates that Hungering Darkness' crew controls the model. Therefore the controlled model is part of Hungering Darkness' Crew when the head is removed from play and thus is able to claim the score.

Thoughts on this new development?

It's quite simple.  You misunderstand what the FAQ is saying. 

The model doesn't become part of the Hungering Darkness's Crew (or have its friends and enemies change) while it's controlled by the Hungering Darkness's player.  Because, once again:

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When a model’s Actions are controlled by the opponent (for instance with the Obey Action) the model does not change which models are considered friendly, its friends are still its friends.

so see the first paragraph of the callout:

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From a mechanical standpoint, friendly models are any models that are on the same Crew as the model the rule is affecting. Enemy models are any model that isn't on the same Crew.

In other words, temporary control of a model or its actions doesn't change which crew it belongs to. 

[EnternalVoid]

1 hour ago, santaclaws01 said:

But those are talking about interactions that care about if something is friendly or enemy, Headhunter doesn't. Headhunter cares which crew picks it up, and since the crew which is controlling a model at the time an action is taken is the one that controls the action, you'd have to show that it somehow isn't the same crew picking up the marker as the crew the controls the action that picks it up.

But the problem is the term "Crew".  That is an actual section in the rulebook on page 19 under the Basic Concepts section.  Crew is the models selected by a player during the hiring process, not who is controlling the model at the time of the action.  Per the rulebook "The Crews in Malifaux are chosen as part of the Encounter".  Under Headhunter's rules for scoring it says "At the end of every Turn after the first, a Crew earns 1 VP if it removed at least one Head Marker from play that turn."   It says Crew, not player.  Crew is also what determines if models are Friendly or Enemy.  Obey and Heed My Voice do not change Friendly or Enemy because it does not change what Crew the model is part of.

[Rathpex]

Yes that makes sense, I think the FAQ could use different wording - it does make it sound like Hungering Darkness' CREW Controls the model.

[santaclaws01]

This however, would be a relevant FAQ entry. 

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3) If a model is killed by an Ability or Action, which Crew counts as having made the kill? When a model is killed as the result of an Action, the Crew controlling the Action counts as having made the kill. If a model is killed by an Ability, the model with the Ability counts as having made the kill.

And The Hungering Darkness's crew is the one controlling the action, so it wouldn't be a stretch to say that even if it is an enemy model that picks up the head, it is still your crew that picks it up as you controlled the action doing so.

[santaclaws01]

8 hours ago, EnternalVoid said:

But the problem is the term "Crew".  That is an actual section in the rulebook on page 19 under the Basic Concepts section.  Crew is the models selected by a player during the hiring process, not who is controlling the model at the time of the action.  Per the rulebook "The Crews in Malifaux are chosen as part of the Encounter".  Under Headhunter's rules for scoring it says "At the end of every Turn after the first, a Crew earns 1 VP if it removed at least one Head Marker from play that turn."   It says Crew, not player.  Crew is also what determines if models are Friendly or Enemy.  Obey and Heed My Voice do not change Friendly or Enemy because it does not change what Crew the model is part of.

You can score reckoning off of obeying an enemy model to kill two of your models, because it is the crew killing an enemy model. That's the same for headhunter, all that matters is that the crew picks it up. It doesn't care which crew the model belong to when it's being picked up, only which crew picks it up.

[Rathpex]

Thanks for the response. While I am inclined to agree with your summation, I have just found this in the FAQ:

 

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8)  If an opposing Crew is temporarily controlling a model, which Crew cheats/spends Soulstones for it?

The Crew which controls the model cheats and spends any Soulstones for the model. 

From this FAQ it indicates that Hungering Darkness' crew controls the model. Therefore the controlled model is part of Hungering Darkness' Crew when the head is removed from play and thus is able to claim the score.

Thoughts on this new development?

[santaclaws01]

5 hours ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

That's the correct interpretation. Just like if you control an enemy and try to take an interact you'll give them a scheme marker, and why you can't command an enemy to destroy their scheme markers, because their is no action that allows models to just generally destroy friendly scheme markers, only enemy.

But those are talking about interactions that care about if something is friendly or enemy, Headhunter doesn't. Headhunter cares which crew picks it up, and since the crew which is controlling a model at the time an action is taken is the one that controls the action, you'd have to show that it somehow isn't the same crew picking up the marker as the crew the controls the action that picks it up.