Starting Sandeep/Arcanists

[Panfuricus]

Hi everyone,

 

Shapeshift Options for Myranda: Synergy with Sandeep

So, I've recently started building a Sandeep crew. I've read quite a bit about the various models that tend to 'mesh' well with Sandeep, and I'm aware Myranda is essentially an auto-include for most Arcanist crews. However, I was curious what particular beasts are the best models to have in reserve for Myranda to turn into? Most of the topics in regards to this are pretty old, and happened well before Sandeep.

 

Here's a list of things I've purchased:

Sandeep Box

Marcus Box (Mostly to get Myranda, and some shapeshift options.)

Metal Gamin

Fire Gamin

Shastar Vidiya Guard (I like the models, but I'm aware I might not be running more than one or even running them against certain comps)

 

Just to clarify, I haven't played Malifaux before but I have played similar games. I've also listened to a lot of the various podcasts, and read over most of the discussions around here.

 

Models I've heard that are good with Sandeep that I don't own:

 

Wind Gamin (Probably the most mentioned model I don't own. Likely number one purchase I don't have.)

Mecha Rider (This one I've heard isn't super important on Sandeep in comparison to other arcanists. I'm well aware that she's useful, but Sandeep himself summons as is. I'm more worried that she's a bad model to have when Sandeep should be able to place enough gamins on his own)

Ice Gamin (Just for more toolkit options for the rare situation Banasuva needs Frozen Heart.)

Oxfordian Mages (Number two purchase I don't own.)

Arcane Emissary (Seems AWESOME with Sandeep, but unsure how to really run this model with him.)

 

Models I'm iffy about that might be good to have? (Would like opinions on these.)

Freikorps Librarian

Silurids (I think these count for Myranda shapeshift?)

Malifaux Raptor (Myranda again.)

The Valedictorian (Seems really costly in SS and $$$, and I think Kudra does something similar?)

Sanctioned Spellcasters (Iffy on these, think the SS is better spent elsewhere from what I know.)

Johan (Heard good things about having him in general.)

Joss (Seems over-rated, and I think Sandeep has better uses of SS. Open to opinions as he seems popular.)

Molemen (Unsure about these.)

Angelica (Seems kinda meh in Sandeep.)

Arcane Effigy (Don't know what he does that Sandeep needs. Would love to hear more.)

Slate Ridge Mauler (Seems like a mega beat stick for shapeshift?)

Spawn Mother (Shapeshift? Unsure what she adds to Sandeep, just seems more like Myranda utility.)

Thanks in advance,

Panfuricus

[benjoewoo]

I'm sure there will be a flurrious casting of posts soon for this. Take everyone's thoughts, my own included, with a skeptic thought for how you play vs. how the advising person's play style, local meta, and overall experience and/or thought process differs.

I think Sandeep's strength lies in his ability to answer various situations through a combination of his hired crew and his summoning options. Sounds like fortune cookie advice since that's usually the idea with summoners, but one thing to note is Sandeep's abilities, actions, and upgrades do not lean towards building a summoning engine like other summoners, e.g. most resser masters. Sandeep summons just fine on his own given the relatively low TNs he has, excluding Banasuva, and he's fairly good without the summons given his model's innate actions and ability to distribute master-lite AP to his crew.

Banasuva is a pretty good fighter. If you take the Commands limited upgrade, Banasuva is essentially 3 AP summoned in for 1, netting you 2 AP that can beat up people--the no cheat drawback is mitigated if you summon a gamin before hand to provide plus flips to his Ml 6.

For a generalist crew, I'd recommend Cass with PP and a raptor and Joss. Cass and the raptor can run 70% of your schemes by themselves, the former being a good scheme runner counter and runner and the second being evasive and great denial potential. Joss, though expensive, gives you non-Banasuva brawling options, and he can avoid some of the nastiest things you face: defensive triggers. 

I'd probably run mages from there, because they can maximize a lot of sandeep's actions and support Joss/Cass pretty well. Also, I'd hire an initial gamin--I've learned that having the initial gamin helps with presence and Banasuva fodder, because pinging your plus flip gamin through armor makes it much easier to deny that particular gamin. 

[Panfuricus]

@benjoewoo any sentiments on what would be worth having for Myranda options? You yourself brought up raptor, most of what I read has said Myranda -> Raptor is very useful. Since you're mostly just using her for Imbue Energy and you get your cards when she transforms. To turn one push for lots of summons.

I find it interesting you mention how Sandeep is good enough to be his own summon engine. This is something I've seen too. His summon costs seem pretty reasonable and you just need to bump your hand size up to turn one banasuva or whenever you need him.

I'm aware that utility is the main benefit Sandeep has and that's what attracted me to him as a master.

[bertmac]

Ideally you will change Myranda to a cerberus or blessed other than that there are other beasts she can change to but the restriction is Arcanist beasts so she won't be able to change into any of the out of faction ones you mentioned.

Cojo, Slate ridge Mauler and Razorspine rattler are other good beasts she can change to but you may be better keeping her alive without an exact mission for one of them.

[Panfuricus]

2 minutes ago, bertmac said:

Ideally you will change Myranda to a cerberus or blessed other than that there are other beasts she can change to but the restriction is Arcanist beasts so she won't be able to change into any of the out of faction ones you mentioned.

Cojo, Slate ridge Mauler and Razorspine rattler are other good beasts she can change to but you may be better keeping her alive without an exact mission for one of them.

 

Okay, thanks that makes sense! That limits the pool down for beasts.

[spooky_squirrel]

Myranda's shapeshift options depend on what you're planning on doing with shapeshift. Typically in my meta the answer all of us Arcanist players have to that question is 'kill stuff', which prompts us to bring out Cerberus or Blessed/Luther (as @bertmac mentioned). We also tend to lean towards using Command Sandeep, and bringing in something like the Emissary. This gives us multiple angles of attack, as well as Myranda becoming something that can either hunt scheme runners or be a sucker punch on the flank where Sandeep and the Emissary aren't. Which one we use depends on what our opponent has on the table. Outside of those two models, generally the idea is to trade up, whether in stone cost or functionality. That is, make sure that what you're gaining is worth at least what you're losing. In a card-dependent crew, adding Imbued Energies to her gets us 4 cards for the effort as well, which makes the trade much sweeter.

Whether or not you bring the Emissary depends on what you're planning on doing. The Arcane Conflux provides an aura that greatly assists minions, but you could pay for another upgrade if you're not planning on using anything that the generic 0 cost Emissary upgrade.

The Valedictorian is an interesting piece, being a flying Henchman with the ability to (0) to turn off triggers and a Terrifying ability to pull cards from your opponent. She doesn't do what Kudra does, but if you're not sure how you would use her, you might leave her box on the shelf while you flesh out other options.

The Mechanical Rider can summon in more 4 stone Gamin (constructs), but she can summon in other things as well, such as Steam Arachnids. One of the other things to consider is that Sandeep is hard-capped at three Gamin summoned, and his Gamin trade something that they do for added ability. The Rider's summons come in damaged, but do not sacrifice anything to provide a utility ability. I will often consider bringing the Rider as a scheme runner if the strat/scheme pool does not call for early killing/positioning, since her abilities come into play starting Turn 2, fully dialed in Turn 3.

I would strongly recommend picking up the Oxfordian Mage box, or the Troubleshooters box (for Ironsides, Mouse, The Captain, and the three Mages). Sandeep's Beacon ability calls for minions and academics, and if you take Unaligned Sage, they get a lot of help (no LOS required, Sandeep can help them furious cast without randomizing). This is also the upgrade that gives you the option of bringing in Sanctioned Spellcasters and The Valedictorian.

Sanctioned Spellcasters are interesting. Their (0) effectively disables opposing control that relies on pushes, and being minions, they'll benefit from the Arcane Conflux. You can also burn nearby Master/Henchman AP to have them take additional actions through their Collar.

The Arcane Effigy brings condition removal, which can help clean up things like Slow or Paralyze. Its (0) might not see much use until Sandeep is ready to dive into combat; hopefully the Effigy has been able to keep up with Sandeep. If I have 4 stones to spend, it's either on this guy or a Gamin that's going to be acting as a potential anchor for Banasuva.

Angelica can be good into the right strat/scheme pool. She makes for a discount Practiced Production caddy, moves at the start of the game, and can help push models into position for later activations. I know that there are people who will try to sell the idea of spending 2 more stones and getting Cassandra as the PP caddy, but as @benjoewoo mentioned, you'll want to take into consideration your own meta, playstyle, and what you're finding you need out of a potential Showgirl with an upgrade in your crew.

[hydranixx]

Welcome aboard,

I agree with most of the listed models you want to acquire next. I've seen exceedingly few Sandeep crews that forgo the triple Mage set up; they generate so much value for him. I would have thought they're more crucial to Sandeep than Myranda is, though in all honesty, I don't really like Myranda so I might be biased against her. Of course, there's no reason you can't play 3 mages AND Myranda pretty much every game. They're flexible models, and made more so when Sandeep leads. I doubt you'd ever regret hiring them.

Wind Gamin are a perfect fit with Sandeep for interacting and scheming. He buffs them and can summon more as need be. For marker heavy scheme pools, Practised Production with anything remotely fast is lethal - again Wind Gamin are great at delivering these free markers, though another popular candidate is the humble Malifaux Raptor. Raptors and Practised Production are notorious at getting scheme markers anywhere you need them.

I thoroughly enjoy my Raptors, and would never take an Arcanist crew without at least 2 of them, though many other plays would prefer their 6ss spent elsewhere and I can understand that, even if I don't agree with it ;). If you are getting Raptors, which you should, you should only hire them. It's a terrible waste to morph Myranda into a 3ss Peon, as good as that Peon might be.

Arcane Effigy is always a welcome addition for Arcanists. Removing Conditions is a big deal, and he's very affordable. Don't focus on his (0) too much. His relative toughness, condition removal and 4ss price tag are why Sandeep would want him.

Regarding Ice Gamin, I believe they can buff Banasuva's attack with their action to give Frozen Heart models +1 Damage, since they grant him that ability as well, maybe? I heard it's one way to make Banasuva hit like a truck.

[spooky_squirrel]

9 minutes ago, hydranixx said:

Welcome aboard,

I agree with most of the listed models you want to acquire next. I've seen exceedingly few Sandeep crews that forgo the triple Mage set up; they generate so much value for him. I would have thought they're more crucial to Sandeep than Myranda is, though in all honesty, I don't really like Myranda so I might be biased against her. Of course, there's no reason you can't play 3 mages AND Myranda pretty much every game. They're flexible models, and made more so when Sandeep leads. I doubt you'd ever regret hiring them.

Regarding Ice Gamin, I believe they can buff Banasuva's attack with their action to give Frozen Heart models +1 Damage, since they grant him that ability as well, maybe? I heard it's one way to make Banasuva hit like a truck.

In my local meta, some players have the first 28-29 stones of their Sandeep list essentially set: Sandeep's upgrades (4-5), Oxfordian trio (15), Myranda with IE (9). I haven't been doing this, but I have been doing similar things with the Oxfordian trio as the core.

 

With Ice Gamin and Banasuva: copying Frozen Heart immediately makes Banasuva immune to horror duels and paralyze. If the Ice Gamin has already activated and used its (0) to put up the Bite of Winter aura, it also gives Banasuva +1 damage. Do this near the Commands the Wind Gamin for added enjoyment. Combinations like this are part of the reason for trying to have good activation control on the attack turn--if your opponent's done activating and Sandeep has not yet gone, you get the Gamin combination you want, uninterrupted for the first turn it's on the table.

[Panfuricus]

Okay, thanks everyone! This helps out quite a bit. 

 

Oxford trio seem great for pushing in general. I'm mostly expecting to be primarily focused around learning various interactions.

[benjoewoo]

Myranda + IE may be a bit of a trap for you. The beast summon is nice, and gives you an extra activation, but you lose your answer to defensive triggers for essentially tool boxing a faster fighter with roughly equivalent damage or better scheme running. Also, you'll lose your answer to Hard to Kill models and Hard to Wound models. Joss is just more consistent and puts a lot less stress on your hand because it's fairly difficult to put him down in 1 activation even with a powerful hand, and even at HtK Joss gets better between Warding Runes and reactivate, whereas Cerberus gets markedly worse and blessed has to end activations early to heal up.

I highly recommend Joss, just for the Warding Runes synergy with mages and outside of Armor 2. His damage track isn't amazing, but IE on him is either card draw deterrent or the boost you need to put down a high priority model. I can count the number of times Joss ignoring defensive triggers has occurred on one hand, but I don't lower any fingers for when I count how many times that has ensured a win. 

Sandeep is his own summon engine less because he's a strong summoner, more because he needs 8s and a 12 in masks or the SS to get masks. The 8 is relatively easy to get, and if you're shuffling well, you should pull at least one 12 between Turns 1 and 2. Best part is Sandeep can summon out of activation. 

[spooky_squirrel]

Related to @benjoewoo's recommendation above:

With the Oxfordian Mages as a core, having an M&SU Henchman (underlined examples below) supporting them in some way significantly assists them in handling Terror/Manipulative checks (Student Loans), so I'm often looking for excuses to bring someone who can fit that bill. This is one of the things that keeps me from using Myranda much myself--I get more mileage out of Amina Naidu using her bag of tricks; The Firestarter bolstering the Mages early, and being available to scheme run or even carry a Bleeding Edge Tech bomb into an enemy caster. Joss runs more expensive, but as mentioned above, he's a solid anvil, especially if you can hold off on committing him until he's needed.

It's a 9 stone pitch for Myranda and IE, and if you can make it work to your benefit and keep board control and momentum, that's great. The people who use it around me use it for a cycled activation and to draw 4 more cards before it's time to activate Sandeep and go for the throat. I've faced off against players who weren't as well practiced, and they learned that Myranda is a little too fragile to leave out there where she can be targeted. I've gotten good mileage out of using those 9 stones for two more activations (Poison Gamin and Wind Gamin, for example) instead, putting my 50SS Sandeep scheme crew at 9 activations to start:

Sandeep (Unaligned Sage, Commands, Arcane Reservoir) (max cache)
Kudra (Recharge Soulstone, Free of Mortal Shackles)
Oxfordian Mage (nemesis, shielding)
Oxfordian Mage (doom, shielding)
Oxfordian Mage (blood, shielding)
Poison Gamin
Wind Gamin
Angelica (Practiced Production)
Malifaux Raptor

There are variants on this that I'll use depending on what I need, but this is a ready-to-roll into a strat/scheme pool that's going to need some markers down, and has enough options to play into marker/placement/interact schemes where my opponent sometimes feels a little bullied/overwhelmed by what's on my side of the board. In a pinch I can swap out Angelica and the Raptor for the Emissary, Amina+upgrade, or Joss (and with further massaging, get Warding Runes on him without touching my cache); this changes the role of the list from dropping scheme markers to position-bullying, control, or attrition (respectively). For scheme running purposes, you can also (for the same stone cost as Angelica and the Raptor) bring The Firestarter with Imbued Protection/Warding Runes and be reasonably sure that the psychotic little pyro will survive for Undercover Entourage, or be able to get into position to drop scheme markers or accuse models, all while being able to help my Mages make their Willpower checks early in game when momentum is being set. Since I'm already bringing Unaligned Sage, I could even swap the stage manager with the bird for a Sanctioned Spellcaster and a Union Miner, Performer, Rail Worker, or even a second Spellcaster (not recommended, all that Ca focus in the crew makes me very vulnerable to Sonnia, Mei Feng, Bleeding Edge Tech bombs, and the occasional opposing Sue).

I know there are mixed reactions to Kudra's personal upgrade, but with the starting crew listed here, she's Ml 7 with 4 attacks on the charge. Summoned Ice Gamin for Commands the Wind gives her Armor +1 and positives. Summoned Fire Gamin (either remaining Gamin upgrade, depending on what I need Banasuva to do) gives her + in all duel totals (which includes the simple duel to (0) for a 6" place). I've also gotten good use out of the upgrade's (0) to autokill a Gamin (cycle summoned upgrades, explode Banasuva that's copied Deadly Reflex, deny Hunting Party, bury a Wind Gamin since my opponent wouldn't, etc.).

[benjoewoo]

As a note, Kudra plus her specific upgrade is the only model Arcanists have to auto-kill your own gamin model without set up beyond range. This matters because if you summon Banasuva and activate him prior to Kudra and haven't used Sandeep's Student of All ability, Kudra can kill Banasuva, triggering Flaming Demise and (copied) Explosive Demise, then cast one of Sandeep's moves to trigger student of all and Resummon Banasuva for another 3 AP of beatings. This works because the second banasuva is a newly summoned model.

I think Kudra offers some interesting options. She does a variety of things, but I'm unsure how consistent she does them and if there are better options. It will depend on your crew list, because Cass is a better scheme runner and counter hybrid, and Joss is a more efficient fighter for opportunity cost, even if he's naked compared to a loaded Kudra.

I think her role would be in a set up where you need a fighter on the edge of a brawl to provide reliable counter harass and won't go down quickly. Kudra can dance around and deters half committed fighting, but she won't put out the damage numbers needed to kill hardier models. She'll really support the rest of your crew by causing a distraction, drawing and/or cycling cards, and occasionally pulling neat tricks. 

[Panfuricus]

I haven't seen much talk about this. But, what's the consensus on  Shastar Vidiya Guard  ? I know they can take Imbue Energy, and a handful of other useful upgrades. They seem strong, and they benefit from synergy with Sandeep from what I've seen at least.

[spooky_squirrel]

1 hour ago, Panfuricus said:

I haven't seen much talk about this. But, what's the consensus on  Shastar Vidiya Guard  ? I know they can take Imbue Energy, and a handful of other useful upgrades. They seem strong, and they benefit from synergy with Sandeep from what I've seen at least.

I've used mine with Ironsides, because of her Hand Picked Men aura. They can hit really hard and get some work done when they're on positives, and take a fair punch in return. In Sandeep their Academic keyword allows them to make use of more of his abilities, and they bring attack options that aren't tied up in being Ca actions. At 8 stones (plus upgrade if taken), they fill up a lot of space, however. One of these guards and an upgrade like Well Rehearsed, Imbued Energies, Bleeding Edge Tech (they're M&SU), or Blade and Claw will come in at 9 stones, but can potentially get some work done--you might find that they do a lot of work for you in some cases.

[Panfuricus]

So, heavy risk and reward? Makes sense.

I'm looking to play at the store near my house which has around 10 active players. I also have my girlfriend who wants to play Neverborn Lillith, but ideally I'm going to hold off on buying anything 'new' until I have these models painted and based. I'm game for playing around and getting crushed until I have a clue though.

[benjoewoo]

If you want to paint a relatively minimal number of models that you know you'll use, paint sandeep, banasuva, and proxy everything else until you find what you like.

Since your'e not going to tournaments, and it'd be pretty clear you're trying to make informed decisions, I imagine your opponents will be fine with proxies as long as they have identifying marks, e.g. stickers on bases. Once you've identified what you really like and/or what works for your play style and you're satisfied with in other aspects, then buy/build/paint as applicable. It'll save you time, money, and make you a better player more quickly. 

I suggest the same for your girlfriend, as she seems to be new based on your post. There are a lot more resources discussing efficient crews for Lilith, and I think a little bit of research can help her a lot more in choosing a starting direction, though I still recommend building Lilith, painting her, and then proxy-ing everything else. Once you guys have decided on the models you like and will play, you'll buy more confidently and hopefully feel greater satisfaction.

[Adran]

Welcome

Firstly I would suggest you play what you have and find out what you like/don't like and what you feel you need. 

That will be much more important than what people on the internet think you need. That said, when you do feel ready to buy I would put Wind gamin high on the Sandeep list, as they are the best schemeing summons he has, and can help provide addiitonal movement which can be a problem with an academic heavy build. 

On Shapeshifting targets, I normally recommend the cerberus or the Blessed of December as a shapeshift result, but then I would typically prefer to buy the Cerberus or the Blessed in crew selection rather than Myranda as I find they work best when they have an upgrade.

[Panfuricus]

Well someone was pretty helpful and helped me get some pretty heavily discounted ice gamin. So, I suppose I can add that to the list!

[spooky_squirrel]

Reviewing what you have said you already have, I definitely agree with @Adran: play with what you have. Pick up some Gamin for summoning options, but since you're relatively new to Malifaux play with what you have.

Sandeep with Upgrades will run you about 4 stones, Kudra loaded up another 9. You could play a melee-oriented Academic force with Shastar Vidiya Guards (and Sandeep has some stuff that interacts with their abilities), bringing you to a base of 29 stones with two of them, 31 if you give them both an upgrade (Well Rehearsed, Blade and Claw, Imbued Energies, BET). This leaves you 18 more stones for hires before you dig into Sandeep's cache. If you spend those stones on Gamin (2xFire, 2xPoison, for instance), you are looking at 8 activations and a mix of melee and shooting attacks, as well as having minions that can hand out conditions/cause damage even in death. You can instead spend those stones on a third Vidiya Guard with upgrade or the Sabertooth Cerberus (upgrade?), with potential of mixing in a Gamin hire or two.

Oxfordian Mages will still be in the queue to pick up, as will things like the Emissary and the Mechanical Rider. These are models that can find a home in many other Arcanist crews, and can provide answers to questions you discover during the learning stages (described below). If you're at all curious about things like Joss and Steam Arachnids (hired or summoned by the Rider), those are in Ramos' box along with Howard Langston. A crew with Joss and/or Cerberus/Blessed, and a Poison Gamin or two can use the Poison Gamin to set up for Blade and Claw to move the slow moving Joss into position to get to the fight, or to get the more fragile beasty out of cover and directly into action (mitigating their inherent weaknesses).

 

Take some time to play some fixed rulebook strat/scheme games (Turf War, A Line in the Sand, and a scheme that focuses on position or killing makes for a good starting point for mechanics and crew learning) and nail down the mechanics and complicated interactions that Sandeep's crew can have (every time I or one of the other Arcanist players introduce someone to Sandeep they end up feeling a little mystified at how we can have three models act during one model's activation, including summoning in another model). Keep a cheat sheet of his Beacon Abilities (laminate or put in a card sleeve so that you can mark off which ones you've used in a turn). Once you've done that and are versed in using the models you have, shift over to the strat/scheme set your local meta is using (core rules or GG2017) and start playing into drawn pools instead of fixed pools. As you do this, you'll start getting a sense for what's missing from your crew(s) for some schemes and where your weaknesses are (crew and player style) in various strategies/schemes and match ups.

[Panfuricus]

@spooky_squirrelThanks so much for this! I definitely agree with most of what you've said. I'll say how things go.