Breakdown of Lucius MKII

[4thstringer]

The nice thing is that once he gets pushed, I get to activate, so I send another engager.

Its a huge threat to every non-armor model we have, and every master but mayyyybe dita.

[trikk]

Unless you take Badge of Office

[Ludvig]

46 minutes ago, trikk said:

Unless you take Badge of Office

Even with badge of office I think it will be a credible threat. It could get 5 attacks with positives to everything and min 3.

[Corn]

I mean the key is protecting your most important models.

If you need to you can even go so far as pine boxing a key support piece you cannot protect in any other way.  That way Yasu has to at least chew through a Death Marshal first before getting at the model inside.   The more of Yasu's attacks you can allow the Marshal to absorb the less effective it will be.  A terracotta warrior in Lucius for instance granting the Marshal his protection, or a Death Marshal Recruiter pitching cards to keep the Marshal kicking.  

Brutal Emissary can also scoop up a vulnerable model (especially one that has already activated) with his bury, and unbury that model safely next to himself or a scheme marker next turn.  He has Armour and df6 to help try to hold off Yasu as well.

if your big squishy enforcer- like an executioner hasn't activated yet, it can hop out and tear into Yasu after the Marshal dies.  

Even if you are getting out activated by hounds, hopefully you can get some indication of the angle Yasu will be coming in at, and can do some things to brace for the impact to make sure you survive long enough to counter.

[trikk]

Just now, Ludvig said:

Even with badge of office I think it will be a credible threat. It could get 5 attacks with positives to everything and min 3.

Well, if you use Badge + stone you block the trigger. It will most likely drain your cache but its 13SS. If he doesn`t kill stuff you`re very much ahead.

[Ludvig]

Just now, trikk said:

Well, if you use Badge + stone you block the trigger. It will most likely drain your cache but its 13SS. If he doesn`t kill stuff you`re very much ahead.

I'm pretty sure the trigger is after success soonly a hit is required?

[trikk]

Yes, you`re correct. It still will be hard most likely to kill most of our masters. Except Sonnia I think everybody is more or less safe (unless you use + 2Df)

[Ludvig]

3 minutes ago, trikk said:

Yes, you`re correct. It still will be hard most likely to kill most of our masters. Except Sonnia I think everybody is more or less safe (unless you use + 2Df)

Lucius is also majorly boned unless he has some loyal mooks around. 

@Corn If you want to have an unactivated  executioner buried by an unactivated death marshal you need to seriously out activate your opponent. If you have an unactivated executioner buried by a death marshal that can't release it the same turn I'm sure as hell not charging that marshal When the executioner finally pops out it will need to hit with three min damage attacks with an extra ram in each to kill you in one activation. The Yasinori may laso likely still be at + flips to it's defence if it popped recalled training.

I guess no amount of theorfaux will settle this and I need to sleep but that bastard sounds lethal and far to durable for my tastes.

My first counter will likely be to lie down on the floor and cry like a baby Maybe try to block off some of the jucier targets with armoured ones.

 

[trikk]

1 minute ago, Ludvig said:

Lucius is also majorly boned unless he has some loyal mooks around. 

@Corn If you want to have an unactivated  executioner buried by an unactivated death marshal you need to seriously out activate your opponent. If you have an unactivated executioner buried by a death marshal that can't release it the same turn I'm sure as hell not charging that marshal When the executioner finally pops out it will need to hit with three min damage attacks with an extra ram in each to kill you in one activation. The Yasinori may laso likely still be at + flips to it's defence if it popped recalled training.

I guess no amount of theorfaux will settle this and I need to sleep but that bastard sounds lethal and far to durable for my tastes.

My first counter will likely be to lie down on the floor and cry like a baby Maybe try to block off some of the jucier targets with armoured ones.

 

If he has the Scribe he`s at Df7 so its survivable. Mooks also help.

[Corn]

13 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

Lucius is also majorly boned unless he has some loyal mooks around. 

@Corn If you want to have an unactivated  executioner buried by an unactivated death marshal you need to seriously out activate your opponent. If you have an unactivated executioner buried by a death marshal that can't release it the same turn I'm sure as hell not charging that marshal When the executioner finally pops out it will need to hit with three min damage attacks with an extra ram in each to kill you in one activation. The Yasinori may laso likely still be at + flips to it's defence if it popped recalled training.

 

Well really the Marshal is just ablative wounds at this point to try to keep Yasu from murdering a 9ss beater for the first turn.  If it prevents Yasu from killing the Exectioner at all its done its job.  And don't forget a cheeky Judge, Lucius' or Abuela, can command the Marshal to take a swing with his pine box something else (I don't think you can target the air)- setting the Executioner free.

In addition to the scribe bringing Lucius' up to def 7, Lucius can also do silly things like use Useless Duplications from himself or a nearby Doppleganger or Graves to pitch 2 cards for a  each.  Bringing mighty Yasunori down to a  flip.   Just watch out for focus, but that is not an issue on a charge.

[trikk]

Yasunori has  and will have Recalled Training.

[Ludvig]

Yup, it can handle double negatives without breaking a sweat brcause why not?!

If the executioer is buried turn one but can't pop back out the Yasinori can kill your master or some model around 10ss. Then the executioner pops out and fails to kill it and gets killed in return. You are now down about 20 points and have taken maybe half the wounds off the Yasinori, not a great situation.

If you have the executioner, the judge and a marshal and you buried the executioner before it went then you very likely will be out-activated by most lists, especially one focusing on alpha striking.

I guess just going hyper aggressive with big stompy things is the way to go. Pk & J-time! (Peacekeeper and Judge for normal people out there) My Armoured Ortega Family might also be able to handle that pain. Put some armour on things with nurses and shrug off the negatives. 

This Yasinori business has really derailed the Lucius discussion, lets bring it back. Witch hunter Lucius: The starter models are cute, add a handler and a few witchlings. Enjoy loosing! 

Alison Dade with 4 guils hounds?

[4thstringer]

I haven't gotten Dade to work with anyone else yet, but willing to try her with Lucius and hounds.  

[Gnomezilla]

3 minutes ago, 4thstringer said:

I haven't gotten Dade to work with anyone else yet, but willing to try her with Lucius and hounds.  

Do you use her hand reveal at all or do you not, or opponents always discard the marker instead?

[4thstringer]

1 minute ago, Gnomezilla said:

Do you use her hand reveal at all or do you not, or opponents always discard the marker instead?

My opponent for the most part got rid of markers.  It was her lack of durability that led to her lack of effect.  The way her auras are set up makes it hard to profit from them too.  If you activate her early so other friendly models can heal, she goes down way too easy.  If you activate her late, her opponents don't need to worry about her activating.

[Ludvig]

Spammed (3) hounds today with Lucius. They performed very well, collecting evidence and scoring whatever the always scheme is as well as flipping a squatter's rights marker and bailing Lucius out as well as charging stuff from 17" away. Very enjoyable in corner deployment with a sergeant  

[Corn]

12 hours ago, Ludvig said:

Spammed (3) hounds today with Lucius. They performed very well, collecting evidence and scoring whatever the always scheme is as well as flipping a squatter's rights marker and bailing Lucius out as well as charging stuff from 17" away. Very enjoyable in corner deployment with a sergeant  

Issue command to cause a Hound to (1)  charge with focus.  That should suprise someone, especially if the Hound ends up in the Elite Training .  Woof

Speaking of that, If you take an Executioner you could Commanding Presence it to discard it's Ready to Work upgrade and charge.  An out of activation Executioner charge could take anyone by suprise.  Too bad Thrall are a thing and benefit so much more from Lucius' abilities for the same price tag.

[Tris]

On 26.2.2017 at 8:25 AM, Corn said:

Speaking of that, If you take an Executioner you could Commanding Presence it to discard it's Ready to Work upgrade and charge.  An out of activation Executioner charge could take anyone by suprise.  Too bad Thrall are a thing and benefit so much more from Lucius' abilities for the same price tag.

But the Executioner has higher min damage and ignores def triggers - these are still things in his favour

[Cadaverousbirth]

3 hours ago, Tris said:

But the Executioner has higher min damage and ignores def triggers - these are still things in his favour

Why not both? Lucius with his double Thrall buddies and an Exec someplace else. He works fine independently (being careful of Wp duels) and can really dish out the pain without Lucius' help. Armor makes everyone cry though, pray for Crows. 

[Corn]

@Cadaverousbirth Models like the Executioner just seem like a bad fit for Lucius, the synergy is really just limited to a Commanding Presence and What Lackeys are For.

While I've played a lot of different Lucius crew builds, they always focus on taking advantage of as many of Lucius' buffs as possible, I don't like models that aren't reaping those   flips and commands, or able to benefit defensively from the  from Red Tape.  Especially when guild now have such good access to potent minions- I just always find myself reaching for minions when I play Lucius- Death Marshals, Stalkers, Hunters, Guardians, Thralls, Austringers, Pathfinders, etc.  If I do reach for an Enforcer it will likely be something like Mr. Graves or the Doppleganger which take advantage of everything except Issue Command.

The big exception to this is the Brutal Emissary- Brutal Conflux's  aura stacks really well with Lucius' in a minion heavy crew and the healing trigger on A Cage for All makes for an excellent support piece which emphasizes the crews I want to bring with Lucius.  The more  flips you can get for your minions the more effective Lucius' out of activation attacks becomes, and the less reliant on your hand you are.  Or if you are really cool you can have it jump in with Diestro.

At the end of the day, Lucius only really feels worth it if his crew is benefiting to the nines from all of his different support abilities.

 

[Ludvig]

Your entire crew can't always benefit from all of his abilities anyway. In strats like interference you can't bunch up like that and against Pandora or Brewie you likely will not want to. Lucius also needs really dangerous models to stop his enemies from going wherever they please.

[Cadaverousbirth]

12 hours ago, Corn said:

@Cadaverousbirth Models like the Executioner just seem like a bad fit for Lucius, the synergy is really just limited to a Commanding Presence and What Lackeys are For.

While I've played a lot of different Lucius crew builds, they always focus on taking advantage of as many of Lucius' buffs as possible, I don't like models that aren't reaping those   flips and commands, or able to benefit defensively from the  from Red Tape.  Especially when guild now have such good access to potent minions- I just always find myself reaching for minions when I play Lucius- Death Marshals, Stalkers, Hunters, Guardians, Thralls, Austringers, Pathfinders, etc.  If I do reach for an Enforcer it will likely be something like Mr. Graves or the Doppleganger which take advantage of everything except Issue Command.

The big exception to this is the Brutal Emissary- Brutal Conflux's  aura stacks really well with Lucius' in a minion heavy crew and the healing trigger on A Cage for All makes for an excellent support piece which emphasizes the crews I want to bring with Lucius.  The more  flips you can get for your minions the more effective Lucius' out of activation attacks becomes, and the less reliant on your hand you are.  Or if you are really cool you can have it jump in with Diestro.

At the end of the day, Lucius only really feels worth it if his crew is benefiting to the nines from all of his different support abilities.

 

Chalk it up to different playstyles but I find it hard to fit everything within Lucius' bubble of fun in most games. Too much crew synergy can be a trap and stretch Lucius' abilities too thin, I've found. I do agree that Brutal is great with Lucius, he helps a lot. Agreeing with @Ludvig as well, bubbling up in my meta is usually a horrible idea, and most board setups wont allow it or make that very difficult regardless. Two Thralls, Scribe and the TWarrior have been enough of an entourage for me, everything else goes out and does their thing.

For some anecdotal evidence, I took the Exec against Titania for the juicy gobbling of scheme markers for free attacks. It so happened that Titania ran the other direction so the Exec ate up The Tooth, Lilitu, and Mr. Graves. His only support was an Austringer and a couple lucky flips - min 5 with a Ram is mean. Ready to Work really lets them be independent and hunt things away from everything else. The only master synergy they really want is Fast, Nimble or Precise from Nellie, McCabe, and McMourning respectively.

[Corn]

Its not that everything should be in the bubble all the time, it's that I find i am more flexible if everything can benefit from being in the bubble.  Stuff is moving around, a model will finish a job on a flank and rush in to support Lucius, a quick model will move away from Lucius to intercept an opponent in the distance.  Lucius can speed up a model with a command and a presence and fling it someplace else.

In my own experience my Executioner has not performed markedly better than a Hunter or a Withling Thrall and I would rather have the Hunter guarding the Flank as he can use his 3 inch push to zip around, generate his own  flips and can pull enemy models out of position with his spear.  

I don't usually like the Executioner though so I may be biased.  He is better now with Ready to Work, and I have had fun with Judge using Combat Effectiveness on him.  He's definitely a good pick for enforcer heavy games

 

[4thstringer]

I don't like the executioner with lucius, though I haven't tried him since he got his (0) or the errata.  The thrall fits his space better for me in lucius crews.

 

On 3/3/2017 at 6:58 AM, Cadaverousbirth said:

Chalk it up to different playstyles but I find it hard to fit everything within Lucius' bubble of fun in most games. Too much crew synergy can be a trap and stretch Lucius' abilities too thin, I've found. I do agree that Brutal is great with Lucius, he helps a lot. Agreeing with @Ludvig as well, bubbling up in my meta is usually a horrible idea, and most board setups wont allow it or make that very difficult regardless. Two Thralls, Scribe and the TWarrior have been enough of an entourage for me, everything else goes out and does their thing.

I've found that outside of trying to take advantage of lucius's abilities, you really need model that can either solo or pair up and still have success without lucius giving them help.  Models that can benefit some if they do happen to be in the aura (like graves, doppelganger, or hunter) but that can still do work without lucius's help can be nice, but don't let that aura be a deciding factor for who you want to solo.  I've used Ryle (as well as the models listed above) for that role.  Thinking about it, I guess grimwell, nurse HB, the guardian, field reporters, peacekeeper or Phiona would be decent models to solo away from him.  Maybe this is where Allison Dade would actual be useful, but somehow I doubt it.  I don't own a pale rider, but I can imagine it would work too.

[ArcticPangolin]

On 26/02/2017 at 5:25 PM, Corn said:

Speaking of that, If you take an Executioner you could Commanding Presence it to discard it's Ready to Work upgrade and charge.  An out of activation Executioner charge could take anyone by suprise.

I thought that Ready To Work required you to be able to expend 2 AP for a Charge, but then expending 1 instead. Meaning that you couldn't Commanding Presence it to charge.

Any thoughts on how it works legally? Am I missing something?