Breakdown of Lucius MKII

[trikk]

Wardens...
I think people forget Wardens, They are guardsmen so Sergeant can bump their Wk to 6. Dashel can give them (0) Focus and they can shoot into cover with the Paraclaw . They also have a  to that Queeg Terryfing

[Ludvig]

7 hours ago, ringsnake said:

I used him last night. If I'd used his commanding presence on himself, I'd have drawn a Black Joker on it and paralyzed him.

I rest my case.

Also, his boxed set sucks against crews that are not boxed sets. If Queeg does the same (0) interact trick that Captain Dashiel does, I see no point in ever using either Dashiel or the Guardsmen.

What is up with the Guild Guard? Am I missing something, or are they the weakest minions of any faction ever?

Dashel gives focus for a (0), Queeg makes people (0) interact and needs to do a (1) action to set his aura up, Dashel's one is automatic. They have kinda different jobs.

You aren't missing any hidden gems. They are as bad as they look. With Dashel summoning new ones their defensive trick can make them into decent roadblocks with df 6 and armour. I use them when consition schemes are in the pool since they like standing around uselessly engaged with stuff. If anyone is silly enough to mark them, Lucius can suck them dry for soulstones with Devil's deal so that you deny points.

[Bakunin]

10 hours ago, ringsnake said:

I used him last night. If I'd used his commanding presence on himself, I'd have drawn a Black Joker on it and paralyzed him.

I rest my case.

Also, his boxed set sucks against crews that are not boxed sets. If Queeg does the same (0) interact trick that Captain Dashiel does, I see no point in ever using either Dashiel or the Guardsmen.

What is up with the Guild Guard? Am I missing something, or are they the weakest minions of any faction ever?

Honestly his boxed set sucks against other boxed sets as well. Lucius is cool, but Dashel without Arrest Him!, two Lawyers, and Guild Guard that aren't being summoned won't get you far.

Guild Guard aren't the worst minions ever though. Desperate Mercenaries are worse, no one wants them. Guild Guard at least have the advantage that you don't actually need to pay for them.

[Ludvig]

Forgot about the poor mercs. Although I feel that when comparing models you need to count them as hires.

[Cadaverousbirth]

That's brings up the old summoner's montra of "don't hire what you can summon." Desperate Mercs are worse but it's like comparing a broken shoe to a broken lamp. Which is better?

[4thstringer]

I've had a harder time defending the gg since the reporter showed up,  but here goes. 

1. In pairs they become pretty tanky.   Armor abd 6 wounds?  Yes please. 

2. Investigate has gotten more valuable in gg schemes.   Many scheme runners only have 1" reach so if you can get them near they can place to the far side of a marker, pick up that marker,  then engage if it's useful. 

[Ludvig]

11 minutes ago, 4thstringer said:

I've had a harder time defending the gg since the reporter showed up,  but here goes. 

1. In pairs they become pretty tanky.   Armor abd 6 wounds?  Yes please. 

2. Investigate has gotten more valuable in gg schemes.   Many scheme runners only have 1" reach so if you can get them near they can place to the far side of a marker, pick up that marker,  then engage if it's useful. 

They don't have six wounds last time I checked...  Five right?  (please don't let me be wrong again)

[4thstringer]

Just now, Ludvig said:

They don't have six wounds last time I checked...  Five right?  (please don't let me be wrong again)

You're right.    Just waking up.   Sorry. 

[Ludvig]

Still a decent ap sink for a model with 2 or 3 weak damage if they can't ignore armour.

[psychogeek]

4 hours ago, Bakunin said:

Honestly his boxed set sucks against other boxed sets as well. Lucius is cool, but Dashel without Arrest Him!, two Lawyers, and Guild Guard that aren't being summoned won't get you far.

Guild Guard aren't the worst minions ever though. Desperate Mercenaries are worse, no one wants them. Guild Guard at least have the advantage that you don't actually need to pay for them.

Mason uses Desperate mercs all the time. he gets good use out of them

[ringsnake]

Where do you get this summon upgrade card from?

I did consider the thought that two Guild Guard next to the Scribe are DF:6, but then everyone is all packed in together, and like all miniatures games, the more times you have to say "If this then..." in a chain when trying to make a model work, the more likely it is that the model sucks. That's why pre-eratta Lucius sucked, because all of his abilities had you trying to set up chains of "if-thens" to pull off shenanigans that other models pulled off with only one or two 'if-thens'.

The Warden looks a bajillion times better in Lucius. Especially when you can import a doppelganger to replicate its attack.

[trikk]

Next to Scribe they are Df7 AFAIR. Doppel doesn't want to copy the warden attack as she doesn't get the extra ram and even if she did she can't declare triggers.

[Ludvig]

Ringsnake: The upgrade is in the guild section of ripples of fate. It's Dashel only.

[4thstringer]

The fact that the upgrade is guild only means that Daschel into NB is a really hard sell.  

[Corn]

8 minutes ago, 4thstringer said:

The fact that the upgrade is guild only means that Daschel into NB is a really hard sell.  

Even if the upgrade was duel faction, Dashel is a hard sell into Neverborn because he is a Guardsmen Support piece.  Support models are only as good as the models they can support, and Dashel is especially limited because at most he will be supporting 3 other guardsmen brought in under surprisingly loyal, and he cannot give (0) focus to Austringers and does nothing for Terracotta, the big out of faction hires  that Neverborn would actually be interested in.  Summoning Guardsmen wouldn't fix that core issue, and Neverborn have access to other supportive summoners- like the changling summoning Emissary...

The easiest trap to fall into when playing Lucius is to take too much support.  Lucius is a support piece, Dashel is a support piece, Queeg is a support piece, Over investing in support leaves you with a bunch of support models with nothing to support.  I typically try to limit my Luicus crews to a single additional support model and fill the rest out with hard hitting minions or guardsmen in the case of Dashel lists.  That way its harder for me to find myself in a situation where I have a bunch of expensive support models with no friends to support.

[4thstringer]

I was reading another thread and I realized, I haven't heard anyone talking about hunters in a lucius list in a while.  It used to be that lists full of hunters, wardens and watchers were some of my favorite Lucius lists.  Have the new shinies of the thrall and reporter pushed those to the back lucius players minds?  Or are they still good picks?

[4thstringer]

Just now, Corn said:

Even if the upgrade was duel faction, Dashel is a hard sell into Neverborn because he is a Guardsmen Support piece.  Support models are only as good as the models they can support, and Dashel is especially limited because at most he will be supporting 3 other guardsmen brought in under surprisingly loyal, and he cannot give (0) focus to Austringers and does nothing for Terracotta, the big out of faction hires  that Neverborn would actually be interested in.  Summoning Guardsmen wouldn't fix that core issue, and Neverborn have access to other supportive summoners- like the changling summoning Emissary...

The easiest trap to fall into when playing Lucius is to take too much support.  Lucius is a support piece, Dashel is a support piece, Queeg is a support piece, Over investing in support leaves you with a bunch of support models with nothing to support.  I typically try to limit my Luicus crews to a single additional support model and fill the rest out with hard hitting minions or guardsmen in the case of Dashel lists.  That way its harder for me to find myself in a situation where I have a bunch of expensive support models with no friends to support.

I agree.  I was thinking about daschell into the McCabe/Yassenori matchup because daschell would be a hard one turn kill for Yas, and could summon guardsmen to futher slow Yas down.  Probably not a successful strategy, but I am really throwing things against the wall to see what will work right now, because that strategy wrecked me hard.

[Corn]

51 minutes ago, 4thstringer said:

I agree.  I was thinking about daschell into the McCabe/Yassenori matchup because daschell would be a hard one turn kill for Yas, and could summon guardsmen to futher slow Yas down.  Probably not a successful strategy, but I am really throwing things against the wall to see what will work right now, because that strategy wrecked me hard.

For Neverborn specifically Barbaros seems like he could help a lot with that match up

Yasunori having to take a challenge check for every attack can drain the opposing hand pretty heavily- especially if Tannen or an Insidius Madness are nearby.  If Yasunori decides to use its mobility and engage Barbaros directly to avoid the challenge, the scribe can make him Def 7 and on that Mask he can knock Yasunori aside- potentially into some clockwork traps.  If he has to take a hit, he can do so fairly well with Armour and SS for prevention.

[Ludvig]

I think construct Lucius is still very viable, especiqlly since I don't have thralls yet

As far as support go: don't diss my Lucius, Dashel, Dade, lawyer, performer and guard sergeant list! Oh, Tannen too!

Stoning for a mask and dropping a 13 on Barbie seems like a good way to counter Yasinori, but this is the guild thread now right?!

Yasinori are 50mm based and reporters can't be charged? That means that with some clever setup you might be able to create a huge zone where it can't end a charge. Large parts of our boards are usually impassable so 50mm bases don't have an overabundance of places to end a charge. 

[4thstringer]

I honestly don't have as much trouble with it in guild, because el mayor is a thing, and I have more ranged options to make my opponent have to really be careful with such a big target.

[ringsnake]

Nevermind this post. Didn't notice an earlier reply.

[Ludvig]

1 hour ago, 4thstringer said:

I honestly don't have as much trouble with it in guild, because el mayor is a thing, and I have more ranged options to make my opponent have to really be careful with such a big target.

I haven't faced it but if I played it I would make it nimble and push it up with McCabe so it's behind a house with striking distance of about the whole board. Maybe give it armour too. Plus you can only mayor a single model. Oh, and yu can make it fast and push it even more right?

[4thstringer]

9 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

I haven't faced it but if I played it I would make it nimble and push it up with McCabe so it's behind a house with striking distance of about the whole board. Maybe give it armour too. Plus you can only mayor a single model.

There is some fear of that, but buildings are not all that common in our games.  any move up risks me getting a tarpit model into it so I can slow it down.  My opponent likes to get it into me first turn with that nimble, which means I need an el mayored model to charge in at the top of 2.

[Corn]

I think part of it comes down to Guild in general being a bit more used to getting smacked hard by ridiculously fast heavy hitting combos, and taking it in stride.   We have a lot of tech to help our key models survive Yasunori to the face, or be buffed to be able to have a chance.  El Mayor, Grind to a Halt, lots of access to armor, or some combination of the above.  For the Guild, Yasunori + McCabe is just another strong fast alpha strike that we'll take on the chin and counter punch in turn.  It'll hurt a lot but we have the tech to protect our very key models, and we can live with the loss of a grunt or two.

 Neverborn by contrast tend to have a glass jaw, and are typically balanced around being the ones doing the sucker punching so it would make sense that as a faction they'd have a bit more trouble with McCabe turbo charging Yasunori.

Obviously in Malifaux a game with such broad factions and variability between each master in each faction this isn't a perfect dichotomy, but I think as a general rule Guild are a bit more equipped to handle being punched hard in the face.

[Ludvig]

51 minutes ago, 4thstringer said:

There is some fear of that, but buildings are not all that common in our games.  any move up risks me getting a tarpit model into it so I can slow it down.  My opponent likes to get it into me first turn with that nimble, which means I need an el mayored model to charge in at the top of 2.

Slow it down how? McCabe or Yu should be able to push it after your tarpit engages it. And if there isn't terrain behind which it can hide and still strike into your deployment zone with 22" of flying movement I seriously question your boards  (nimble walk 6, fast from Yu 6, Charge 10 = 22)

Hmm, it doesn't ignore armour so I guess it will mostly be a threat to the scheme runners. Charging and triggering the bonus attacks against the buddies next to it should let it take out three decent mid range models if they position poorly. I would also say that with it's a decent threat to a few of our masters and most of our henchmen.