Jack Daw - Last Whisper - Dig Their Graves order

[S4lt]

Last whisper allows Jack to place a scheme marker in base contact with a model before it is removed - when it is killed.

In dig their graves, would this count? As the marker wasn't there when it was reduced to 0 wound, but is there before removing the model?

 

Thanks 

[solkan]

8 minutes ago, S4lt said:

Last whisper allows Jack to place a scheme marker in base contact with a model before it is removed - when it is killed.

In dig their graves, would this count? As the marker wasn't there when it was reduced to 0 wound, but is there before removing the model?

 

Thanks 

The marker wasn't there when the model was killed, placing it during the process is too late.

 

[Bakunin]

Should we just say that nothing works with Dig Their Graves? Is there any action/ability that would let you place the Marker without the Interact? 

[Ludvig]

47 minutes ago, Bakunin said:

Should we just say that nothing works with Dig Their Graves? Is there any action/ability that would let you place the Marker without the Interact? 

I don't think there is one but I could be forgetting something. There are a few models that get to attack after a marker is placed near them which is handy but I don't think there are any triggers that work before damaging.

[solkan]

2 hours ago, Stryder said:

This is actually a tricky one to answer.

At the moment, I believe the answer is "nobody knows until Wyrd FAQ this".

At the point when you determine that the defending model has been officially 'killed', two things happen (in relation to this given situation):

1. A scheme marker may be placed

2. You may check for 'Dig Their Graves' scoring

Obviously one of these things needs to happen first, but which one? As far as I am aware there is nothing in the current rulebook that explains timing interaction relating to Abilities vs Schemes. If the ability is resolved first, then Dig Their Graves can be scored. If the scheme is resolved first, then it cannot.

Maybe someone else has better info. If not, we'll have to wait and see.

No, all of that requires claiming that you're scoring from the act of killing the model, but from having a model in a "killed" game state.

The problem with that claim is that there's no such thing.  All of the references to "when a model is killed" or "when X kills a model" refer to an event.  Because the state of a model when it is killed is "dead".

Otherwise, you get nonsensical interpretations for abilities like Scent of Blood:

Quote

Scent of Blood:  This model receives the Fast Condition when a living model within 3" is killed by another friendly model.

"Is killed" is an event.

Edit: The problem with claiming that Finish the Job and scenario scoring would go to General Timing in this condition is that you're trying to apply General Timing to a condition that isn't true (yet).

In Warmachine/Hordes, the rules specify that the players have to recheck trigger conditions while evaluating events.  Malifaux has no such rule specifying that conditions are rechecked.

So the model with Finish the job gets killed, and you see which effects need to be resolved.  The only one that is true is Finish the Job, because the model isn't near a scheme marker.  So only Finish the Job gets resolved.

If a living model with Finish the Job was standing next to a Scheme marker and Bette Noir was standing nearby, in that situation you would have three effects to resolve:

- Scent of Blood (on Bete Noir, standing nearby)

- Finish the Job (on the killed model)

- The Scheme rule (a model is killed near a scheme marker)

So you go to General Timing to see what order those effects evaluate in if the order matters.

But if Bete Noir was 25" away from the killed model, you don't check Scent of Blood to see what happens.  Because it wasn't triggered.

Edited February 19, 2017 by solkan
Added explanation that was missing.

[Bengt]

14 hours ago, Bakunin said:

Should we just say that nothing works with Dig Their Graves? Is there any action/ability that would let you place the Marker without the Interact? 

Titania/Aeslin The Wicked Silence "Place a Scheme Marker in base contact with target enemy model, then the target suffers 2 damage."

There is also A trophy for the queen triggers that places a marker after succeeding, and while you can't use them on the same attack that kills the model they let you place markers without interacting and are nice if the enemy takes more than one hit to kill.

[Ludvig]

5 minutes ago, Bengt said:

Titania/Aeslin The Wicked Silence "Place a Scheme Marker in base contact with target enemy model, then the target suffers 2 damage."

There is also A trophy for the queen triggers that places a marker after succeeding, and while you can't use them on the same attack that kills the model they let you place markers without interacting and are nice if the enemy takes more than one hit to kill.

There are several attacks/interactions that place markers after dig would score so you can set it up with prior attacks just not the one killing, not sure what @Bakunin meant. Good catch on the wicked silence! I had a feeling one of the new masters would have something sneaky like that.

[Stryder]

This is actually a tricky one to answer.

At the moment, I believe the answer is "nobody knows until Wyrd FAQ this".

At the point when you determine that the defending model has been officially 'killed', two things happen (in relation to this given situation):

1. A scheme marker may be placed

2. You may check for 'Dig Their Graves' scoring

Obviously one of these things needs to happen first, but which one? As far as I am aware there is nothing in the current rulebook that explains timing interaction relating to Abilities vs Schemes. If the ability is resolved first, then Dig Their Graves can be scored. If the scheme is resolved first, then it cannot.

Maybe someone else has better info. If not, we'll have to wait and see.