Unlocking NBLucius, one player's journey

[4thstringer]

As I said in the Lucius Experience thread, I am going to start a journey to become the king of the NBLucius players.  In this thread I will track my experiences over the next few months.  I've gotten 2 NBLucius games in since the new year, with one close win and one horrendous loss (10-8 but that makes it look closer than it was), with lists that were pretty much the same, playing the same set of schemes for each.  That list used Lucius with either Barbaros or Nekima, a Rougarou, a BBS, a TC warrior, scribe and 2 austringers.  It played well into McCabe, but not so well into Sandeep (though my cards were pretty rough on that one too. I kept emptying my opponents hand with simple duels, but my opponent was successfully topdecking everything.  Probably would have still lost, but at least it wouldn't have felt so bad)

 

My Monday game is Guard the Stash, Standard Deployment, with Leave Your Mark, Accusation, Hidden Trap, a quick murder, and claim jump.

I'll try any suggestions people have, but I think my list is going to heavily feature waldgeists, tots, and a strongarm suit with rets eye (which is just something I've wanted to try recently).  I don't like lists without the TC warrior, but we will have to see how the points land.

[4thstringer]

So after some theoryfaux with a friend, I've come up with 2 variations of a list I want to try.   Honestly, I didn't do a great job of building to scheme, but I'm still trying pieces together what will work well together.

Lucius- Suprisingly Loyal, aether connection

Mr. Graves (we are talking about switching him our for a BBS if I go Mature Neph.  Probably wont happen)

Doppel

Mature with Rets Eye(or Strongarm Suit with same) (either will probably get the thousand faces, but it will be rets eye)

Mounted Guard

Austringer

TC Warrior

Scribe

5 stones.

The idea being that either the neph or strongarm suit can be dropped into the heart of my opponent by the mounted guard.  The Strongarm suit would be used to take out a key piece (support or otherwise) due to its ability to charge while engaged.  OTOH the Mature would be dropped somewhere he could flurry a big piece.  

Variations to this include a couple tots replacing the doppel so that I can control activation a little more, and so they can jet downflield to run schemes.

 

 

[Ergonomic Cat]

My understanding of NBLuc is that 2 Illuminated are almost mandatory.   Because honestly, the list you are playing is basically a Guild Lucius list, with you even acknowledging that the Mature can be replaced with a Guild-available model.  And what self-respecting Neverborn player wants to be associated with the Guild (my Sonnia crew not withstanding)?!

I think to truly be the NBLuc master, you've gotta play things that aren't available to GuiLuc (tm).  Illuminated.  Beckoner.  Changelings.  Wicked Dolls.  Etc.

[4thstringer]

The big differences are upgrades.  We don't have anything like rets eye or aetheric (which works great with devils deal).

The other difference is the longer charge range on nb allows for the mounted guard trick to work out.

I'll do illuminated, and I think lucius will make them go very well. 

[Masquer]

46 minutes ago, 4thstringer said:

Lucius- Suprisingly Loyal, aether connection

Mr. Graves (we are talking about switching him our for a BBS if I go Mature Neph.  Probably wont happen)

Doppel

Mature with Rets Eye(or Strongarm Suit with same) (either will probably get the thousand faces, but it will be rets eye)

Mounted Guard

Austringer

TC Warrior

Scribe

5 stones

What do you plan on using Mr. Graves for? I assume guarding Lucius. I'd drop Doppelganger for Changelings, if I was going to drop her, but I'm biased. You might find some use for Useless Duplications here.

20 minutes ago, Ergonomic Cat said:

My understanding of NBLuc is that 2 Illuminated are almost mandatory.

I think to truly be the NBLuc master, you've gotta play things that aren't available to GuiLuc (tm).  Illuminated.  Beckoner.  Changelings.  Wicked Dolls.  Etc.

Stitched Together and Bloodwretches are good minion options too. 

[Ludvig]

Changelings can be taken in guild

You could try swamp theme Lucius. Waldgeists are kind of tough now that Lucius can heal them so they hold the stash. Keep McTavish backfield to deny quick murder and shoot anything near your waldgeists. 

Mr Graves seens like a horrible choice to me with a quick murder inthe pool.

The neverborn schemers of your choice should easily do any marker scheme and you can probably do the consition scheme without breaking a sweat unless you face Hamelin or something.

[4thstringer]

1 minute ago, Ludvig said:

Changelings can be taken in guild

You could try swamp theme Lucius. Waldgeists are kind of tough now that Lucius can heal them so they hold the stash. Keep McTavish backfield to deny quick murder and shoot anything near your waldgeists. 

The neverborn schemers of your choice should easily do any marker scheme and you can probably do the consition scheme without breaking a sweat unless you face Hamelin or something.

That is going to take some serious proxying.  I don't think I own any of those except McTavish.

 

3 minutes ago, Masquer said:

What do you plan on using Mr. Graves for? I assume guarding Lucius. I'd drop Doppelganger for Changelings, if I was going to drop her, but I'm biased. You might find some use for Useless Duplications here.

Stitched Together and Bloodwretches are good minion options too. 

Graves is for a couple things.  In this list, he helps get people forward to get that charge first turn.  He also will be used to push people off the stash marker.

Stitched are also models I don't have, but am anxious to try.

[Ergonomic Cat]

5 minutes ago, Masquer said:

Stitched Together and Bloodwretches are good minion options too. 

I knew I was missing a couple great minions!  

Honestly, I'm still stuck on the Autumn Knights for him too.

[4thstringer]

34 minutes ago, Ergonomic Cat said:

My understanding of NBLuc is that 2 Illuminated are almost mandatory.   Because honestly, the list you are playing is basically a Guild Lucius list, with you even acknowledging that the Mature can be replaced with a Guild-available model.  And what self-respecting Neverborn player wants to be associated with the Guild (my Sonnia crew not withstanding)?!

I think to truly be the NBLuc master, you've gotta play things that aren't available to GuiLuc (tm).  Illuminated.  Beckoner.  Changelings.  Wicked Dolls.  Etc.

Beckoners and changelings have been tried thoroughly in my guild crews with old Lucy.  They will certainly get another try, but I haven't done it yet.

Autumn knights are ones I am really excited to try with Rougarou.

[Ergonomic Cat]

2 minutes ago, 4thstringer said:

Beckoners and changelings have been tried thoroughly in my guild crews with old Lucy.  They will certainly get another try, but I haven't done it yet.

Autumn knights are ones I am really excited to try with Rougarou.

*sigh*

Now I'm back to considering Lucius as someone to play.  Hopefully I can dig him out of the penalty box.

I'm currently fascinated by a 2 Knights and the Twins package.  Probably Thorn, for her push (triggering even more pounces) and Tooth, for -flips vs +flips.  Lucius could do pleasant things for them.

[Masquer]

12 minutes ago, Ergonomic Cat said:

I knew I was missing a couple great minions!  

Honestly, I'm still stuck on the Autumn Knights for him too.

 

11 minutes ago, 4thstringer said:

Autumn knights are ones I am really excited to try with Rougarou.

Wonderful minions all round, I'm excited for Fae themed Lucius too!

[4thstringer]

 

6 hours ago, Ergonomic Cat said:

*sigh*

Now I'm back to considering Lucius as someone to play.  Hopefully I can dig him out of the penalty box.

I'm currently fascinated by a 2 Knights and the Twins package.  Probably Thorn, for her push (triggering even more pounces) and Tooth, for -flips vs +flips.  Lucius could do pleasant things for them.

What do the twins do for the knights? 

[Ergonomic Cat]

15 minutes ago, 4thstringer said:

 

What do the twins do for the knights? 

Nothing - other way around.

Lelu gives both himself and Lilitu pounce, and then the Knights lure (Especially Thorn, who can also push on her attacks) and trigger a demonload of pounces.  Possibly using Lilitu's 18" range first, to get something within 8" if necessary. It's gimmicky, but I love it.

[4thstringer]

I'm realizing I have time for 2 games Monday,  so maybe I'll try a swamp fiend or neph themed list for my second.

[Ludvig]

1 hour ago, 4thstringer said:

I'm realizing I have time for 2 games Monday,  so maybe I'll try a swamp fiend or neph themed list for my second.

I've had a lot of fun with Nephilim although I haven't been terribly successful yet. In theory, Lucius and Young nephs should be brutal. It's too bad he can't chain activate them. I find both Barbaros and Mature Nephilim to be nice models who always perform well for me and if you run the scribe I think it will love to hang around Barbie while he has his challenge aura up. Commanding the crap out of a black blood shaman should also be a nice way to get some auto damage onto tough to hit enemies while buffing your frontliners. 

[4thstringer]

My only problem with lucius and the bbs is that 2 simple duels are still really card intensive.   

[Ludvig]

5 hours ago, 4thstringer said:

My only problem with lucius and the bbs is that 2 simple duels are still really card intensive.   

Haven't fielded it yet but if you're trying to take down Pandora or Perdita it seems like your best bet.

[ringsnake]

OK, I've played some games with him pre-erratta, so just so I'm clear on the changes:

He gets a mask baked into his DF, which does nothing on his card, but lets you much more easily trigger the "Secret Service" Mask+Ram trigger from the Surprisingly Loyal upgrade. It seems like an awesome upgrade, and a compelling reason to take all or mostly guardsmen and mimics with him.

The damage inflicted by Devil's Deal on any friendly model within 6" is reduced to 2 from 3, and since the damage is irreducible, and Lucius can now heal two damage from minions with one of the Issue Command triggers, there's no real incentive to go for tough models. It seems to me that'll be most used to spend soulstones for Rams to get Secret Service working.

Highest Authority is unchanged, discard a card to inflict a negative flip for those times when you've blown up your followers with a combination of Secret Service and 'free' rams from Devil's deal, and failed to tangle the enemy in red tape from the sword cane.

The radius of Elite Training has been increased from 3" to 6", grants a bonus flip to melee attack flips AND horror duels instead of just horror duels, and affects all Minions, Mimics, and Guardsmen instead of just minions! This is HUGE, and something I didn't notice. It changes Elite Training from a non-ability to something that has some real use. A model within the radius of both Lucius and a Lawyer is getting two positive flips against Horror duels, which brings us to....

Commanding Presence has been changed to affect ALL other models instead of just minion models, but the radius of the bubble has been reduced from 18" to 12", but since I never seemed to have anything further than 12" from him when I used him before I consider that a more than fair trade off. The TN has also been reduced from 13 to 12, which means it's been reduced from an 8 to a 7 card for most models, and Mimics and Guardsmen can generally expect to get a positive flip or two on that into the bargain. Again, this is HUGE, because we can now take Guardsmen and Mimics that are Enforcers and Henchmen without losing as much.

BACK OF CARD

The Red Tape ability has been vastly improved, tangling up the struck opponent through the next turn until Lucius activates again. With the improvement to Devil's Deal, it looks like the trigger is much easier to pull off. I doubt I'll try and use Lucius as a tarpit, but he can charge an enemy model that's positioned to jump him the next turn and hope to tangle it up instead of running away, or burn stones and cards to defend himself and dump the damage on his lackeys. Note that Red Tape helps only minions and mimics, and does not assist Guardsmen who are enforcers or henchmen.

What Lackeys are For is unchanged, but the ability to walk twice 4" forward each time, and use those walks to much more easily trigger two uses of Commanding Presence, and then drop a scheme, and trade places with a slow brute type model seems like it would be pretty good. Especially when you can also add the (0) Hidden Sniper from secret Assets on top of that. I can imagine sneaky tricks involving Beckoners where you use commanding presence to have the Beckoner pull an enemy model forward, which could reel in models that look like they should be safe.

Guild Intelligence has also been improved and simplified. Instead of working only on minions, it allows ALL friendly models within 6" to take interacts while engaged. Since a lot of the best mimics and guardsmen are enforcers and henchmen, this move away from 'minions only' seems like a massive improvement to me. It also happens automatically. It's no longer a CA that requires a card of a nine or higher in value. That's a HUGE change.

Issue Command no longer hates on Austringers, and seems to be the ONLY on card ability that only affects minions, and only has its best effect on minions that are mimics or guardsmen by boosting the range from 8" to 14". The triggers are all different, but the core effect is the same, it allows Lucius to use other model's powers during his activation, though he has to use the 1 action from where those models are standing. The general concept is the same, use commanding presence and this power to have any friendly minion use their (1) action up to three times.

Issue Command has new triggers: Take Aim! is the same; for a Ram it grants focused +1 before the target takes it's action. Subterfuge and Get Down! have been dropped from the card which sucks a bit, as the ability to drop schemes seemed like a central trick for Lucius. They've been replaced with Watching Closely, which for a Ram heals the target by 2 points. So you Devil's Deal a model to keep soulstones, and then let that target take an action and heal the damage back. He's no Dreamer, but it's nice to see some healing. Move it costs just one Mask, and provides yet another threat extender.

THE GENERAL GIST OF THE CHANGES

His abilities function more easily, more reliably, and/or out to a longer range; and you don't have to wrack your brains or limit your lists trying to figure out which models are legitimate targets for which abilities. The breakdown of legit targets goes like this:

ALL MODELS: Devil's Deal, What Lackeys are For, Commanding Presence (used to only be for minions), Guild Intelligence (used to only be for minions)

All minions, mimics, and guardsmen: Elite Training (used to only be for minions)

Minions and mimics only: The attack penalty inflicted on enemy models by Red Tape.

Minions only: Issue Command (used to be denied to Austringers)

--- WE MUST ALSO CONSIDER HIS MINI-ME

The Scribe has had quite a few changes made to it.

With the changes made to Lucius, the only power Lucius has that cannot affect the Scribe is Issue Command. this is an invisible change that is rather dramatic. I'm seeing a ton of sneaky tricks with scheme markers, Secret Assets, What Lackeys are for, Companion, Commanding Presence, and Elite Training already.

It loses Insignificant, and replaces with an ability called "The Secretary's Eyes and Ears" that let it take Interact actions while within 6" of a friendly master, which 99.999% of the time is going to mean while within 6" of Lucius. In 35 point games with only eight or so models in your band this seems rather huge.

Butler gives +1 DF to ALL other friendly models instead of just friendly mimics! While it seems likely that you're only going to have Lucius and other mimics nearby, the ability to give +1 DF to the odd non-mimic Neverborn model that you take along is pretty cool.

Companion is the same, but since the Scribe can now do interacts, and is a legitimate target for far more of his abilities, this ability is much more flexible and potent.

Glove Slap is mostly the same with the same extraordinary boost that Lucius gets on his sword cane. The red tape two negative flip penalty against minions and mimics lasts until the Scribe activates again or leaves play.

Flurry, which while amusing when considered with Glove Slap, has been replaced with the much better: "Do you have an appointment?" A very easy to cast ability that puts the Scribe BtB with Lucius, and then pushes Lucius 4" away. I know that it will have me experiment with being much more aggressive with Lucius in unison with upgrades like Secret Objectives dumping off scheme markers to get additional attacks with the sword cane. Even though it's not a mimic, I can see myself experimenting with Will O Wisps, as most of Lucius's abilities do work on it now. Unlike Guild, Neverborn can bring a lot of good WP duels that could result in scheme markers being dropped by enemy models near the wisps.

Your Mask Sir is unchanged, but since it's easy condition removal for a Neverborn Master, that also seems good.

--- THE HIDDEN POWER

He's easier to use. I won't be wracking my brain trying to figure out complex chains of 'if this type of model then that, and then activate that other type of model to do this, and then take aspirin for the headache.'

[ringsnake]

How this changes things with the upgrades I own and have access to, because I only just got this game, and have no idea where you people are getting these other things from. The upgrades are unchanged, but the changes to Lucius do change them.

Surprisingly Loyal: You can bring in up to four out of faction Guardsmen or Mimics from out of faction as if they were in faction. I suspect that Lucius being able to affect Enforcers and Henchmen with abilities that were previously only available to minions is going to do more good for the Guild. Guild can now take mimics like the doppelganger AND the doppelganger gets access to a few abilities that were previously only available to minions. It can get out of turn access and additional mobility while copying Guild Marshals and stuff. I'm going to experiment at least a little with ignoring this upgrade, and building a crew that has only mimics and minions, but with the mask added to Lucius's DF, Secret Service looks a lot better, though again even better still for Guild.

Secret Assets: It's an extra attack as a (0) that has some interacts with scheme markers. There's an interesting new tax against this ability that makes it less impressive than it was. Before, this upgrade was a no brainer, because you needed a 9+ to even get Guild Intelligence to work at all. Now you can use bonus actions granted by Lucius to move scheme runners upfield AND make them capable of dropping schemes while engaged. I'm thinking that whether or not I take this will depend on what Strategy and Schemes are out. Schemes that involve murdering people you take this upgrade, but schemes that involve lots of (1) interacts I might consider leaving this aside.

Legalese: This seems better, now that it looks like Lucius can more safely play in a more aggressive way. The ability to treat enemy auras and areas as friendly would be of more benefit to someone who had better command of all the stats of all the cards than I have. I'd have to rely on my opponent to be aware of things like this making Lucius immune to Sebastian's Catalyst power.

Secret Objectives: This seems to live in the same space as Secret Assets. If you've got a murdery set of schemes, and little use for scheme markers, you can use Lucius to use a combo of Commanding presence, Issue Command, and Guild Intelligence or Hidden Sniper to drop up to a few scheme markers into a combat, and then have Lucius transform into a mincing machine with that sword.

Useless Duplication: Can be put on any Mimic, and I hear Mister Tannen is both unpopular, needs to be up close, and is squishy. Since I can see moving Lucius, Tannen, and the Scribe all together with maybe also a Lawyer and Mister Graves along for the ride, this looks fun. Just don't do it around Rasputina, right?

[Nikodemus]

39 minutes ago, ringsnake said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks to me like all attacks with the Sword Cane get a positive flip from Elite Training.

Sadly no. Elite Training specifies "Other friendly ... models". If it was just "friendly models" it would work for Big L himself.

[ringsnake]

Just now, Nikodemus said:

Sadly no. Elite Training specifies "Other friendly ... models". If it was just "friendly models" it would work for Big L himself.

It still looks really good to me. Giving all Neverborn Mimics and Minions nearby a positive flip to melee attacks seems like a huge boost over his pre-eratta version. Something that's even better for Neverborn than for Guild, who seem to be more about camping and shooting.

[Gnomezilla]

In your otherwise excellent post you confused hard to wound (negative damage flip) with armor (reduce damage)--not that either matter as the devil's deal damage may not be reduced.

[ringsnake]

2 hours ago, Nikodemus said:

Sadly no. Elite Training specifies "Other friendly ... models". If it was just "friendly models" it would work for Big L himself.

 

2 hours ago, Gnomezilla said:

In your otherwise excellent post you confused hard to wound (negative damage flip) with armor (reduce damage)--not that either matter as the devil's deal damage may not be reduced.

I fix, and probably also introduce additional errors by changing one of the posts to cover how the changes affect the upgrades.

Based on my prior experiences with Lucius using him with Guild, I'm seeing a massive improvement involving a lot of subtle interactions that weren't there before. I'm just happy that most of his powers are much easier to keep track of, because if you create a crew that consists almost entirely of mimics, minions, and maybe also Guardsmen all of his powers will work on most of them. Now that he gives a positive flip to melee attacks to friendly guardsmen, mimics, and minions out to a 6" bubble he seems a lot more murdery than he was before. I can see how the combo of beckoners and the illuminated is so compelling.

Based on an imperfect comprension of the cards and their rules:

MIMICS

Lawyers - Guild Minions: With all the WP supressing hijinks available to Neverborn, it seems well worth taking surprisingly loyal along with Wisps and one or more WP penalizing models. Especially now that Elite Training grants a positive flip on OBJECTION! Here's a place where, to the best of my knowledge, Neverborn can outdo the Guild. Guild doesn't have the ability to easily knock about enemy model's WP with stuff like Widow Weaver.

Doppelganger - Neverborn Enforcer: Doesn't really have (1) actions that Lucius can help with. I cannot copy Lucius, and only copies a (1) during its activation. Seems like there's still some active anti-synergy there.

Mister Graves and Mister Tannen - Neverborn Enforcers: Now significantly better with Lucius' powers now affecting them, and giving Mister Graves a positive flip on attacks. Plus there's a visual similarity between them, Lucius, The Scribe, and the Lawyers. That counts a lot to me.

Candy - Neverborn Enforcer: Lots more synergy with Lucius now. The only thing he has that doesn't help her is Issue Command. Combo of Best Behavior and What Lackies are for as an escape hatch for Lucius seems good, and she's DF:7 near the scribe. Positive Flip on Self-Loathing. Heals for when you use Devils Deal, and Commanding Presence can be used to distribute additional wails to really screw up your opponent's order of activation.

Beckoners - Neverborn Minions: All the brilliance tricks, so I assume if you're going to take them, you'll also take The Illuminated. However, I note that they are still one point more than Performers, who do just about the same thing, and have some synergy with WP supression and poison to go with those Lawyers. Lucius still has good synergy with performers too, since they're minions, and Candy can also give poison. Hmmmnnnn....

Changelings - Neverborn Minions: I don't know enough about them to comment.

Terracotta Soldier - I know nothing about it, and am not particularly interested. Seems better with other masters.

NEVERBORN MINIONSNot going to go into detail, because I'm not qualified to, but it seems like Neverborn is a lot stronger on the WP shenanigans and slightly stronger on the close combat beat downs than Guild is. They also seem a lot faster, so Lucius can give those fast Neverborn minions like Terror Tots or Insidious Nightmares and extra walk, or make slower stuff keep up with faster models that they otherwise lose synergy with.

GUARDSMEN

I was not impressed with Dash or the Guild Guard when I used them in Guild, and they don't seem to offer anything to Neverborn. Am I wrong?

I just don't know enough about these models to speculate, though the Austringer looks like a no brainer if you wanted to give it extra attacks, or do both attacks and moves, and Deliver Orders. I can see running a Terror Tot way further than expected, and then shove an Austringer with Lucius and then grant the Tot an unexpected Interact.

Master Queeg: If only for the entertainment value of using Commanding Presence to make him take a horror duel to walk to make a minion take a horror duel to activate that minion's (0) action.

Honestly though, if you want to play with a mass of Guardsmen that have all those internal Guardsman to Guardsman and Guild to Guild synergies, why not just do Guild?

MERC MINIONS

Performer + Lawyers looks interesting enough to try. Dunno about the rest. Is there more poison from minions there?

 

[Bakunin]

2 hours ago, ringsnake said:

Terracotta Soldier - I know nothing about it, and am not particularly interested. Seems better with other masters.

Devil's Deal is excellent with Warriors, since they can pitch a card to prevent any damage that wasn't dealt by an attack. Their bodyguard ability is pretty nice as well. There is a reason they have Mimic, and that's so they can hang out with Lucius.

2 hours ago, ringsnake said:

Doppelganger - Neverborn Enforcer: Doesn't really have (1) actions that Lucius can help with. I cannot copy Lucius, and only copies a (1) during its activation. Seems like there's still some active anti-synergy there.

True, (0) Mimic can't be used with either of Lucius' AP giving options, and the Action that is copied goes away at the end of the Doppelganger's Activation, so you can't activate it first then have Lucius Command it. It can still copy everything else's cool stuff though, and Cheating Initiative is a nice trick. If someone has Useless Duplications it becomes almost impossible to hit by shooting, leaving non- and to deal with it. If your opponent does send in a melee fighter, the Doppelganger can give it a  to its attack with Useless Duplications, and then the Doppelganger can hit them back with their own attack, with a  from Lucius!

[4thstringer]

Tc warrior is almost an auto take for me with Lucius.  Its ability to protect s key minion or enforcer is really useful and if you keep it closer to Lucius it makes a great surprisingly loyal trigger