are stuffed piglets cheesy?

[Adran]

10 hours ago, PolishSausage said:

In most cases 95% you are better off taking gremlins over stuffed

See, I'm not upset with that. Sure a lot of the time the Bayou is better than the piglet, but occasionally, you want the piglet. That to me is a better place than starting your list by filling it with piglets. 

[Adran]

Bah. Double post.

[Math Mathonwy]

30 minutes ago, Adran said:

See, I'm not upset with that. Sure a lot of the time the Bayou is better than the piglet, but occasionally, you want the piglet. That to me is a better place than starting your list by filling it with piglets. 

It being better doesn't make it good. Most people (maybe even all?) agreed that something needed to be done but the current implementation threw the balance out of whack to the other side. Sure, it's not as disruptive but don't you think that a better situation would've been if Stuffeds were considered almost equally since they cost the same? Or maybe that's a high goal (and not good for the faction identity) but even making them such that Piglets were considered by half of the Masters would be good. Now it seems that the only one who will consider them is Wong.

I dunno, to me it seems that a Bayou Gremlins is just ridiculously better. Being a non-Insignificant Minion is absolutely huge. Having Bayou Two-card and better Df and Cg and a good version of Squeel and a gun on top of that is completety bonkers. Oh, and the ability to get a third AP (albeit at a big cost). And essentially the only thing they lose is the explosion.

[daniello_s]

I'm drinking now to the post above. Cheers!

[Adran]

To the question should all 3 ss models be equally good, or an equal consideration in all situations I think is a no.

I am happy that all 3 ss models would have a niche to be used in. I don't know what the wyrd intent was,  yes they have gone from a model that appears in every list to a model that only appears occasionally. I know I think if something is in every list, its too good.   I know that the stuffed pig is not the worse 3 ss model in the game. and that it would be considered in most other factions. The Bayou is crazy good for 3 ss. I'm not sure putting a model that reagually challenges the place of a bayou gremlin in your list for the same points is a great idea.  I'm not sure how common stuffed pigs on the table should be, buit I think that if you want a stuffed pig on the table to be a stuffed pig, then 3ss is not overpriced. If you have some spare stones and are just looking for things to buy to make up the numbers, then they are probably not your choice, and I don't think they should be.  

 

[trikk]

26 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

It being better doesn't make it good. Most people (maybe even all?) agreed that something needed to be done but the current implementation threw the balance out of whack to the other side. Sure, it's not as disruptive but don't you think that a better situation would've been if Stuffeds were considered almost equally since they cost the same? Or maybe that's a high goal (and not good for the faction identity) but even making them such that Piglets were considered by half of the Masters would be good. Now it seems that the only one who will consider them is Wong.

I dunno, to me it seems that a Bayou Gremlins is just ridiculously better. Being a non-Insignificant Minion is absolutely huge. Having Bayou Two-card and better Df and Cg and a good version of Squeel and a gun on top of that is completety bonkers. Oh, and the ability to get a third AP (albeit at a big cost). And essentially the only thing they lose is the explosion.

Like I said, I didn't see a better resolution than 3SS. Tying them to taxidermists would just swap one model. Making hirable 3 doesn't change the activation spam because 3 already give an absurd activation control. There were some ideas but honestly I think a lot of them would end up with Bayous anyway (apart from the Pigapult maybe). 

 

The only pro of SP is the explosion and giving out points. Its not much but if Wong still considers them and they will be taken in Stake a Claim for the pigapult I think the change is decent (but not perfect).

 

I generally think Bayous are a little bit undercosted for 3SS but they would probably be overcosted for 4 SS so while I get what your saying, comparing to the best and only spammable 3SS model is not a very good comparison.

 

Same thing happened to Austringers. They were autoincludes and now sometimes you take 1. While this had a huge impact on Guild ranged firepower I think the change was good overall.

[Math Mathonwy]

18 minutes ago, trikk said:

Like I said, I didn't see a better resolution than 3SS. Tying them to taxidermists would just swap one model. Making hirable 3 doesn't change the activation spam because 3 already give an absurd activation control. There were some ideas but honestly I think a lot of them would end up with Bayous anyway (apart from the Pigapult maybe). 

Allowing the opponent to pass after the Stuffed Piglet activations on the first turn would've been better IMO. Or giving them something to compensate for the price increase. Which I feel would've been a bit of a no-brainer if their problem indeed was the activation control - compensating a 50% price increase might've been a good idea...

18 minutes ago, trikk said:

I generally think Bayous are a little bit undercosted for 3SS but they would probably be overcosted for 4 SS so while I get what your saying, comparing to the best and only spammable 3SS model is not a very good comparison.

I don't think that they can be compared to anything else (3SS non-Totems are sorta rare in Gremlins) so I dunno what else I'm supposed to do. That's the reality and that's what is making them obsolete. I will be taking Bayou Gremlins almost always now instead of Stuffeds. I suppose I could compare them to a hypothetical situations where things were somehow different but I'm not sure what good that would do.

18 minutes ago, trikk said:

Same thing happened to Austringers. They were autoincludes and now sometimes you take 1. While this had a huge impact on Guild ranged firepower I think the change was good overall.

I think that their change had a lesser impact on their use than the release of Nellie and Reporters.

[trikk]

3 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Allowing the opponent to pass after the Stuffed Piglet activations on the first turn would've been better IMO. Or giving them something to compensate for the price increase. Which I feel would've been a bit of a no-brainer if their problem indeed was the activation control - compensating a 50% price increase might've been a good idea...

Like I said. This would either mean you have superb activation control T2 or that you take Bayous. It might work but it doesn't convince me enough to say "its a better solution.

I think most of the erratas (especially July) only touch the problem and mimimize card changes. Austringer should also probably get something in return (like wk5 for example) but sadly they didn't.

 

8 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

I think that their change had a lesser impact on their use than the release of Nellie and Reporters.

I don't think so personally. They are still good models for Headhunter but TBH I almost never shoot with the one I take occasionally. I think people overestimate Field Reporters. They are pretty mediocre scheme runners. They are pretty good 4SS models. And even without Nellie crews I don't take Austringers often and with the 18" I definitely would.

[Bazlord_Prime]

1 hour ago, Math Mathonwy said:

I dunno, to me it seems that a Bayou Gremlins is just ridiculously better. Being a non-Insignificant Minion is absolutely huge. Having Bayou Two-card and better Df and Cg and a good version of Squeel and a gun on top of that is completety bonkers. Oh, and the ability to get a third AP (albeit at a big cost). And essentially the only thing they lose is the explosion.

Careful they're, @Math Mathonwy!! You'll have them baying for 4ss Bayous soon!

Wait ... what do you mean I'm too late?

[Myyrä]

14 minutes ago, trikk said:

I don't think so personally. They are still good models for Headhunter but TBH I almost never shoot with the one I take occasionally. I think people overestimate Field Reporters. They are pretty mediocre scheme runners. They are pretty good 4SS models. And even without Nellie crews I don't take Austringers often and with the 18" I definitely would.

Reporters are really better at denying schemes than accomplishing them. The only things they really have going for them in the actual scheme running is their low cost and decent survivability. When it comes down to actually getting markers down they aren't very good.

[trikk]

Thats basically what I said. Wk5 unimpended is not super awful but you can probably set up LYM around turn 3 if you're not interrupted and you don't have super high chances of getting out of engagements.

They are a lot better at denying and debuffing with the attack action than actual scheme running but denying kind of requires Nellie because most of the time you are outactivated if you don't play ber which makes scheme denial.a lot harder.