are stuffed piglets cheesy?

[trikk]

4 hours ago, maca1066 said:

Not sure how a random snap shot in time helps. also not sure how useful saying 2 of top 5 are gremlins, 3 of top 10 are ressers including UK master. given the smilies I guess it is in jest a little. 

gremlins have the second highest average player score but one of the lowest player counts as the skill requirement is high I would argue. glass cannons are not simple.

neither of the top 2 UK players use stuffed piglet spam, think joel runs 2 normally and lukas seems to also run 2 and the third player is here questioning the validity and cheesiness. 3 is as many as i am happy to run.

I think there is a consensus amongst the UK gremlin players that I have spoken to that activation spam is generally an NPE as is a pigapult with a summoner. The discussion here has helped me form my current opinion. my conclusion is more than 3 is chessie and starts to unhinge the game a little. 

cheers fellow fauxers!

The post was mostly for fun and a counter argument for "Well, the Gremlins don`t win anything". I think they are a strong faction but I don`t think they are broken.

You did point to an interesting thing "activation spam is generally an NPE as is a pigapult with a summoner". I think this is mostly my argument. Its not that stuffed piglets are unbeatable or auto-include.

[Bazlord_Prime]

Stuffed have their place, but there's so many other interesting and fun models to play in Gremlins that i don't ever find myself taking them. Bayous are my go-to cheap model, just because they have so much utility. 

All that doesn't matter, of course, because whatever i do in MY games doesn't have any bearing on those who do relentlessly run 6 of the blighters every game. I'd just imagine that would get boring pretty quickly.

And +1 from me for having them mandatorily explode when killed (not sacrificed). It's just... So much more FLUFFY!!! I'd get 10x more enjoyment out of those things if there was the risk of them cinematically blowing up in my back lines due to a lucky sniper shot from down range 

[Somnicide]

No, but 6 might be.

I'd like to see them be Rare 3, then give the Taxidermist a front of the card ability that either doesn't count summons toward that value, or let him "unlock" +3 rare. Then at least there is the additional opportunity cost of also having to bring 7 more points worth of what is actually a decent enforcer but you don't necessarily want that in every crew.

[Bazlord_Prime]

On 16/02/2017 at 1:02 AM, mythicFOX said:

I think to a large extent this comes down to what sort of game you're expecting to play, and does that match what your opponent is expecting?

One of Malifaux many strengths is it caters for a wide range of gaming experiences;  everything from story encounters bordering on role play, through casual pick up games, all the way up to hard edge competitive play.  All of those are valid ways to play the game. IMO the biggest scope for NPE is where you and your opponent aren't on the same page about what you're doing.  All factions have some horrible tricks that will feel out of place in a non-competitive setting.

Best advice is if you're worried about this, talk to your opponent before the game.  Have a frank conversation about how competitive you want the game to be, and agree.  I did this last week with a club mate. We normally play at the top end of competitive, but agreed to dial it back so I could get more of a feel for some new models I was using without being Vik'ed off the board turn one.

TLDR: I don't have a problem with Stuffed Piglets.

I think ^^this should be pinned to the top of every post about anything that's being claimed to be OP, silly or gross.

+1

[trikk]

2 minutes ago, Bazlord_Prime said:

I think ^^this should be pinned to the top of every post about anything that's being claimed to be OP, silly or gross.

+1

I personally think that in any game if I have to ask my oponent not to be cheesy to have a fun time then the game is poorly designed. This is my opinion in general and not about stuffed piglets or malifaux.

This is the reason I left 40k.

[Bazlord_Prime]

On 21/02/2017 at 6:46 AM, EpicWaffle said:

I still giggle to the idea of how Dumb luck works  

It's Trixiebelle's "Lure" that does it for me. Even against something horrific, undead, and mostly probably entirely asexual (like Killjoy) her charms are apparently somewhat disturbing...

[Bazlord_Prime]

19 minutes ago, trikk said:

I personally think that in any game if I have to ask my oponent not to be cheesy to have a fun time then the game is poorly designed. This is my opinion in general and not about stuffed piglets or malifaux.

This is the reason I left 40k.

Understand your point, but i might not go from zero to one hundred like that, disparaging the entire game design because of one or two corner-case loopholes. Those can be fixed. Stuff like this apparent 40k 8th Edition "First Turn = Win" problem - those are a bit more serious.

[Gnomezilla]

I am disappointed that this thread was not entitled "Ham and Cheese". That is all.

Almost all. Some other cheap activations have a hiring limit lower than rare limit (spammable totems) and that breaks nothing. I wouldn't mind it becoming a general rule for 2ss value models next edition.

[edopersichetti]

Coming back to this old topic, it is funny to see how many players were aware of a Stuffed Piglet "issue", but also how many players were already mentioning "I don't think anyone will play them at 3SS". Which is exactly what happened. 

[Tokapondora]

25 minutes ago, edopersichetti said:

Coming back to this old topic, it is funny to see how many players were aware of a Stuffed Piglet "issue", but also how many players were already mentioning "I don't think anyone will play them at 3SS". Which is exactly what happened. 

 

[Flinroz]

Played Wong Today, Hired 2 at 3ss...

They are worth 3ss...

[Math Mathonwy]

14 minutes ago, Flinroz said:

Played Wong Today, Hired 2 at 3ss...

They are worth 3ss...

So you'd take them over Bayou Gremlins?

[Nikodemus]

17 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

So you'd take them over Bayou Gremlins?

As an opponent, I would prefer to see Bayou Gremlins over Stuffed Piglets if there's Headhunter/Dig/Mark for Death in the pool, since I can actually score those off of non-peons.

Niche use for sure. Even then for all I know Gremlins might have better options. But as an outsider view that's where I'd expect to see them, if I see them at all.

[trikk]

If the SP you have been engaged with has never been hit by Wong for a Severe that blows up the pig and does 3 damage from Blast, 4 from SP and possibly 2 from tbe crow you don't know what sadness is

[Bazlord_Prime]

4 minutes ago, trikk said:

If the SP you have been engaged with has never been hit by Wong for a Severe that blows up the pig and does 3 damage from Blast, 4 from SP and possibly 2 from tbe crow you don't know what sadness is

Ahhhh - the Golden Triangle!

[daniello_s]

21 minutes ago, trikk said:

If the SP you have been engaged with has never been hit by Wong for a Severe that blows up the pig and does 3 damage from Blast, 4 from SP and possibly 2 from tbe crow you don't know what sadness is

Perfect storm

[Flinroz]

11 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

So you'd take them over Bayou Gremlins?

Depends on the Schemes I'm taking. If i need them to interact, take gremlins, if I want a little extra damage take piglets. I think it is a good place because there is some choice in which model is best for the job.

[PositronMike]

12 minutes ago, Flinroz said:

Depends on the Schemes I'm taking. If i need them to interact, take gremlins, if I want a little extra damage take piglets. I think it is a good place because there is some choice in which model is best for the job.

How are the pigs doing extra damage? The bayou has a better attack that can potentially do 2/4/6 if you are relying on bacon bomb then you are doing a maximum of 4 in a 1" pulse and then the model is dead. A bayou can potentially do 2 x 6 before dying to dumb luck. 

Stuffed pigs now only have 2 things over Bayous from my viewpoint: They are peons so don't give up VP when they die in certain circumstances and they are Df4 so are a better target to blast off for Wong.  Not sure I would hire them outside of Wong and they would be being used as Blast off points if I did. 

[Flinroz]

18 minutes ago, PositronMike said:

How are the pigs doing extra damage? The bayou has a better attack that can potentially do 2/4/6 if you are relying on bacon bomb then you are doing a maximum of 4 in a 1" pulse and then the model is dead. A bayou can potentially do 2 x 6 before dying to dumb luck. 

Stuffed pigs now only have 2 things over Bayous from my viewpoint: They are peons so don't give up VP when they die in certain circumstances and they are Df4 so are a better target to blast off for Wong.  Not sure I would hire them outside of Wong and they would be being used as Blast off points if I did. 

If I want those bayou shots to land I need to either get lucky or cheat in cards. With the way the game was going I was saving my best stuff for more important models. The Piglets gave me extra damage without costing me any resources.

Plus the scheme pool was headhunter, and my opponent ended up taking Accused, both good reasons to having peons around.

 

I'm not saying you should always take them, but I don't think you always take bayous either. I think for 3 stones they both bring different strengths for the table, and I feel like that is a good place for them to be at.

[PolishSausage]

I agree about free damage, that was the NPE my local group hated about them.

I do not agree about the schemes, headhunter you can keep your gremlins at max range (shooting) and if your opponents snipes them he gives you VP

If you are afraid of accusation you can always reckless them to death or dumb luck them to death ( both options are good)

They also have +flip light to all their flips (HUGE)

 

In most cases 95% you are better off taking gremlins over stuffed

[Flinroz]

If I am keeping them back then they are not denying Claim Jump, which they were doing great at.

[PolishSausage]

true, but it is very hard to deny claim jump/extraction in first place.

Also very often if hunting party was on the table with claim jump you would feed VP to your opponent.

 

You are best off out activating your opponent and "sneaking in last minute" for scoring every round

 

[Flinroz]

... well they denied claim jump, not sure what to say...

 

It might not have been done in a way you consider "best" but I'll just enjoy the victory that the piglets help me get.

[Omenbringer]

14 hours ago, Flinroz said:

Played Wong Today, Hired 2 at 3ss...

They are worth 3ss...

Not to be a downer but 1 play isn't exactly proof that they are costed correctly.

Granted they may have done well in the specific situation you outlined with the Strat/ Scheme combination and your opponent's crew (I am assuming very little ranged ability and low model counts) but that doesn't mean they are appropriately costed or will replicate that utility in a varied circumstance (Different crew, opponent, Strat/ Scheme combination).

Don't get me wrong I think the SS increase was the easiest method of fixing the spam issue and still argue they are cheaper than they used to be (1st edition they cost 3 and you had to hire a Taxidermist to hire them at all).

1 hour ago, Flinroz said:

If I want those bayou shots to land I need to either get lucky or cheat in cards. With the way the game was going I was saving my best stuff for more important models. The Piglets gave me extra damage without costing me any resources.

1

Aside from the 3 SS hiring cost for the Stuffed Piglet that is, which is wasted as soon as the Stuffed Piglet goes Pop to do all the damage and is removed from the board.

Comparing Bayou Gremlin's to Stuffed Piglets isn't really a good idea as they do very different things. In most cases, the Bayou Gremlin is the better hiring option as it provides more options/ versatility for the crew than the Stuffed Piglet whose main (now possibly only) role is as a damage dealer.

Again glad you found them worth the hire in your game but I think it is too soon to see how much the price increase hurts their use/ hiring. Keep in mind I have rarely found them worth hiring in this edition (even at 2 SS) since Som'er's Skeeters lost their ability to function as Air Traffic Control for the Bacon Bombing Assassination Runs of the last edition.

[spooky_squirrel]

On 2/20/2017 at 9:32 AM, Dogmantra said:

Personally I don't think it's really a balance thing for me but I'd like this too, if only because that's one of the things that drew me to the faction. Controlled chaos is a great theme and I like the challenge of playing around not only your opponent but also your own models.

This is the thing that makes Gremlins amusing, and I think more "must do [blah] if able" is not out of character for them. It definitely would make the risk-reward balance trickier, which can be a bit of a turn off for newer players. The interactions in Malifaux can get very complex as it is.

On 7/26/2017 at 11:30 PM, trikk said:

I personally think that in any game if I have to ask my oponent not to be cheesy to have a fun time then the game is poorly designed. This is my opinion in general and not about stuffed piglets or malifaux.

This is the reason I left 40k.

This is the reason I avoid power combinations outside of tournaments unless my opponent asks to see what they are like. Even in tournaments I feel that some combinations are too far over the top* and that securing a win via said combinations is not worth the sense of having exploited something that probably should not be there.

*clarification: if the combination requires 4-5 models being in specific relative locations and a near-perfect control hand and/or flips, but has devastating effects then it's not over-the-top. The trade-off there is the complexity of it makes it unreliable. The less reliable a powerful combination/interaction is, the more it comes down to outplaying your opponent. If the combination is self-contained in a single model and goes off reliably, then it's a candidate for a cuddle-bat tickling (sorry Mech Rider and Wind Gamin, this bus is for you).

On 7/27/2017 at 8:34 AM, Gnomezilla said:

I am disappointed that this thread was not entitled "Ham and Cheese". That is all.

Completely missed opportunity there!

On 8/6/2017 at 7:49 AM, Tokapondora said:

 

Now now, a lot of people have something that'll send them to the salt flats.