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maca1066

are stuffed piglets cheesy?

54 posts in this topic

They aren't autoinclude but can shut down a lot of interference and collect the bounty vp. They usually require 2 ap to kill, can drain a hand from disengaging strikes and have a more than 50% of dealing nice damage. 

I don't think any other faction has non-rare 3ss minions and multiple 2ss models (I don't count traps as they don't activate) across the whole faction. 

I also don't think that 3 or 4 stuffed piglets force you into Claim Jump or FFM. In the pool you played, they might have but the only scheme they are punished is Hunting Party which previously was on suits but now comes up a lot less often.

Since you pointed out Bayou Gremlins are better, I can only agree. They provide 50% activations less than stuffed piglets so they are not as abusive activation wise. They coubt for schemes so you have to make decision to either shoot, drop markers or just block the enemy etc.

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@EpicWaffle not trying to make you out as some bad guy or something, I just have a habit of focusing my posts at specifik statements/posters to avoid confusion in threads with several parallell tracks. 

I would think that a healthy thing for the game would have been to have the pigapult appropriately costed by itself and stuffed pigs only allowed to be summoned, not in starting lists. In conjunction with that I would also have liked it if not all the factions had ready access to 3ss models so that bayous were the cheapest spammable thing in the game. It's a couple of years late for that however. :) 

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if activation control early game was the way to win games, this might be a problem - but it isn't.

no errata needed here IMO

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8 minutes ago, Joel said:

if activation control early game was the way to win games, this might be a problem - but it isn't.

no errata needed here IMO

I'm not trying to get them errata'd or saying they're nearly as abusive but if activation control has no bearing on winning games why was the rat engine errata'd?

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While Nelly is a thing, I don't think the activation control is really a huge thing one can reasonably complain about.

The death'splosion should be mandatory, and I think maybe rare 4 wouldn't hurt (but then, why buy a box of 6?). Df 4 means anything with a moderate of 4 can pretty reliably knock their heads off, and Ml4 means you can probably just walk away from them.

Taking 6 of them does seem abusive to some degree, particularly with Gremlins who don't really have to pick between spending 12 stones on a big beater or the gribblies - they get their beaters for 7 stones thank you very much. 

But whenever I build lists I honestly don't find myself willing to give up things I could get if I don't spend 12 stones on stuffed piglets. The corollary to having cheap really good models is that I have to pick between three stuffed piglets and a rooster rider. Or Francois. Or Burt. Hell, if I take only 3 piglets I can have Burt AND Francois. And I like giant angry chickens much better than exploding piglets.

So if you find yourself feeling bad about using so many - maybe just don't for a while? Try writing some lists without stuffed piglets, and maybe you'll find you can't go back to the lists with 6 in them because you miss out on all that other awesome stuff.

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Because it's boring! Malifaux is a game of alternate interaction, you are constantly involved in the game...

....but the rat engine doesn't do that, it just removes that from the game.  

now - having 12 activations to someone else's 9 is ok, especially when gremlins don't alpha like viks, as you'll still see some plans unfurl.  Once you've killed pigs/bayous that's it.  Rats however are an unending supply as so many models can become them, generate them, etc. 

Also, the rats never need to leave the deployment zone, stuffed have to do something to have a game effect. 

Stuffed piggies don't ruin games, rat engine did

 

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Playing the rat engine was just an exercise in watching your opponent play with themselves in a corner, and then just when you're bored enough to quit, you get punched in the face. Hard. Several times. Then the game is over.

At least stuffed piglets are funny.

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1 hour ago, Joel said:

Because it's boring! 

 

Couldn't agree more. Also the rat engine was a no brain that anyone could achive with success, while poorly positioned stuffed are as useful as mobile targets (cause they won't last a focussed shot unless a load of luck is with you). 

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Yeah, would like to see that the explosion on death is mandatory, for fluff reasons alone, but that`s it, I don´t see a huge problem with them in general, they are annoying and potentially deadly, but one can deal with them (most of the time :P )

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1 hour ago, EpicWaffle said:

Couldn't agree more. Also the rat engine was a no brain that anyone could achive with success, while poorly positioned stuffed are as useful as mobile targets (cause they won't last a focussed shot unless a load of luck is with you). 

Useful to whom? The gremlin player can randomize onto them to do 4 damage without needing to hit my defence but as the opponent I can't leverage stuffed pigs any more than I can leverage rats. I can use them both as blast points and that's it. One of my main gripes is that the gremlin player can choose for them to not blow up when they die.

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Also I don't get the focused shot thing. Most things in the game have around 10" of shooting. Thats 2 wks from a stuffed piglet to get them engaged. Also if I have to focus and shoot/attack your piglet thats basically paralyze for 2ss for most models

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4 hours ago, Dogmantra said:

Hm, well I think the key here is that none of you just played Dom Westerland this weekend as he took flipping five stuffed piglets and the pigapult for collect the bounty. It was hellish I tell you.

 

But it actually wasn't that effective at the end of the day, which I think is the big thing about stuffies the majority of the time. Like, you get the activation control, to extreme levels if you bring loads of them (in this game I had brought a fairly elite crew and I was literally activating everything before any enemies actually even tried to interact with me), but you screw yourself on scoring. I had the option of any scheme, while he was basically locked into Claim Jump and FFM. It was my own foolishness at also picking FFM and making it really obvious that messed me over.

It's great to have them for Interference because they actively deny scoring, as well as Collect just because they're annoying and can't be scored off there, but IMO a lot of the time Bayou Gremlins are so much more useful that spending the extra stone is worth it - and it's not like you can't swarm them too (which is exactly what Dom did the previous two games for activation control) and actually have the flexibility to score.

I mean it is just one game, and it was a silly gimmick, but I think it highlights some of the balancing factors of stuffies.

Hate that guy!

What a scumbag!

SCUM SCUM SCUM!

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Honestly if Malifaux does a 3rd edition I would like to see a lot more of the gremlin bad stuff mandatory (ex the stuffed pigglet explosion and iron skeeter sputtering exhaust)

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26 minutes ago, wizuriel said:

Honestly if Malifaux does a 3rd edition I would like to see a lot more of the gremlin bad stuff mandatory (ex the stuffed pigglet explosion and iron skeeter sputtering exhaust)

Yeah totally. Because as it is right now Gremlins are totally overplayed and overpowered, as they win pretty much every tournament.

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26 minutes ago, cryion said:

Yeah totally. Because as it is right now Gremlins are totally overplayed and overpowered, as they win pretty much every tournament.

I don't see why taking away unenjoyable rules that create loopholey rules interactions would be at odds with buffing the faction as a whole if they are having troubles. With an edition change every model in the entire game would get a new profile anyway just like the jump from 1.5 to 2 so there would be penty of room to improve the faction as a whole if that was needed.

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40 minutes ago, cryion said:

Yeah totally. Because as it is right now Gremlins are totally overplayed and overpowered, as they win pretty much every tournament.

Well. If we look at the data, Top US player plays Gremlins and in UK 2 Gremlin players are in Top 5 ;)

 

As for the stuffed piglets. I hate them more then pre-errata Roosters :D

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I think the whole post is going circles at this point :D 

 

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2 hours ago, Ludvig said:

Useful to whom? The gremlin player can randomize onto them to do 4 damage without needing to hit my defence but as the opponent I can't leverage stuffed pigs any more than I can leverage rats. I can use them both as blast points and that's it. One of my main gripes is that the gremlin player can choose for them to not blow up when they die.

I don't see that resolving any of the issues you're bringing tho. It's just gonna make wise player position them properly and new one learn to, but how is it gonna be so relevant? A new player won't win against an expirienced one even with ''broken models'' so it's definetly not an issue. And as you said, activation control is such a huge thing so thecnically it was usefull to anyone. Also it's not like Guild is left apart from the blasting department. 

P.s. sorry i saw this after wrinting down the other post

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I don't really see a big deal with stuffed piglets. Used well they are efficient for their cost. If you are in their face then after turn one activation control doesn't matter as much. 

Gremlins have some good 7 point models but they generally rely on healing to make them really good. There is a lot of background support in the gremlins faction that once you can break that down they fall apart. 

Gremlins seem broken when played at high skill cap against people who are not intimately familiar with them. 

I just one a three game tournament with an overall 26 positive differential. I had one stuffed piglet in each list and had fingers so that was 10 points that does no damage. 

It just felt broken to my opponents because they didn't know what was going on or the synergy. 

Against my normal gaming group I end a lot of games with gremlins with no models left on the table because we are not a hearty faction. 

I think if you don't play against stuffed piglets or just gremlins in general frequently it can seem op but the cost is pretty good if you know how to punish them. If they take six stuffed piglets what didn't they take with the 12 SS? 

 

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7 hours ago, trikk said:

I also don't think that 3 or 4 stuffed piglets force you into Claim Jump or FFM.

Oh yeah definitely not. In this case it was 5 stuffies AND the pigapult that did that, plus his general strategy of playing keep away with his other models - the pool was like FFM, Search the Ruins, Leave Your Mark and something else fairly interacty. It was like the absurd end point of spamming stuffed piglets rather than an example of a general game with a few stuffies.

6 hours ago, Ludvig said:

I'm not trying to get them errata'd or saying they're nearly as abusive but if activation control has no bearing on winning games why was the rat engine errata'd?

I don't think that activation control has no bearing on winning games, I think that is absolutely an overstatement (I can point to a different game this weekend where I won precisely because of that - the pigapult and som'er is silly in interference). OTOH I think comparing rats to stuffed piglets is also a bit of an overstatement (probably not as much of one though). Stuffies are 2 stones per activation while the rat engine was 8 activations for 8 stones, which is twice as good (albeit less flexible), and while it did only work once, it was normally used on a key turn where activation control is key as opposed to later where in most strats and with most crews it becomes more important to win initiative than to have more activations (although ofc it's always good to have more activations).

2 hours ago, wizuriel said:

Honestly if Malifaux does a 3rd edition I would like to see a lot more of the gremlin bad stuff mandatory (ex the stuffed pigglet explosion and iron skeeter sputtering exhaust)

Personally I don't think it's really a balance thing for me but I'd like this too, if only because that's one of the things that drew me to the faction. Controlled chaos is a great theme and I like the challenge of playing around not only your opponent but also your own models.

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5 minutes ago, Dogmantra said:

OTOH I think comparing rats to stuffed piglets is also a bit of an overstatement (probably not as much of one though). Stuffies are 2 stones per activation while the rat engine was 8 activations for 8 stones, which is twice as good (albeit less flexible), and while it did only work once, it was normally used on a key turn where activation control is key as opposed to later where in most strats and with most crews it becomes more important to win initiative than to have more activations (although ofc it's always good to have more activations).

Stuffed piglets are way better then rats but Rats can offer move activations. OTOH killing one rat can break the whole engine and it doesn't offer much except activation control if it works

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3 minutes ago, trikk said:

Stuffed piglets are way better then rats.

Rats can offer move activations but killing one rat can break the whole engine and it doesn't offer much except activation control.

Still the rat engine got Errata'd and stuffed no, and it's not like people are using them just now. How about that? And no offense but it's already clear you don't like them. @Goopy has a good point, just try to practice against them and you'll find a way around them. 

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1 minute ago, EpicWaffle said:

Still the rat engine got Errata'd and stuffed no, and it's not like people are using them just now. How about that?

I edited my post because it came out wrong :P

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1 minute ago, trikk said:

I edited my post because it came out wrong :P

me too, i misspressed send on the phone while writing the post, so it was missing a part.

 

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13 minutes ago, Dogmantra said:

 Controlled chaos is a great theme and I like the challenge of playing around not only your opponent but also your own models.

I still giggle to the idea of how Dumb luck works :D 

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