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Aymar

Wave 2 Mizaki may be obsolete?

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Hey there brothers,

I fell in love with Malifaux's models a few years back and jumped in a couple of years ago getting a few second hand (wave 1) miniatures, and then bought some Ten Thunders based on recommendations I found here! So thanks a lot, I had only a few games, but it was a blast, and now that I am back, I realize something and I need your help!

I bought a TT box with Mizaki, katakana snipers, oirans, Yamaziko, and the wonderful Izamu! I had a blast with those models, and now that I am back, I joticed that appart from a very few occasions, the only unit from that list that people are still using is katakana snipers.

So did all those units are not that competitive anymore?

I saw a lot of recommendations for wave 3/4 units, so which one should I get in priority? I was thinking of another box and 3-4 units?

thanks a lot for your support, that community is awesome, and I am looking forward to getting your advices!

 

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TT have less use for Izamu because Yasunori is pretty much another order of magnatide better for only a few stones more. He's still good but I don't think you're going to see him much outside Yan Lo with Reliquary.

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Oiran are slightly harder to justify these days because their Lure still needs a suit to go off (one thing that I'm hoping gets changed in the next round of rebalancing) and their melee attacks are still a little ehhh compared to other things you get. Even their specific upgrade doesn't do the trick. If they got a fully suited Lure, they'd immediately become a compelling option. Yamaziko is still decent, especially with the advent of the new Gaining Grounds in which all the schemes start hidden, makes her ability more potent if you're playing her in tournaments.

As Fetid said, Yasunori is really good and makes it harder to justify Izamu these days. Nowadays I would primarily take Izamu 1) for Yan Lo with Reliquary and other Ancestor/Spirit synergy, 2) for Misdirection-using Masters (like Brewmaster) since that extra armor makes Misdirection a touch better and 3) if I honestly needed that extra 2 SS more than the difference in output between the two.

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Thanks a lot guys, 

 

So I was right asuming that newest models are the way to go, and my old ones are becoming obsolete. I can understand why Wyrd games is doing that, but still feel a bit disappointed :/

So on the bright side, I have an excuse to do some shopping!

Yasunori is on top of my list.

I was looking at Yan Lo's box for a long time, seems like a good choice right?

 

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I wouldn't necessarily say older models are becoming obsolete out of any intended design process, that is to say Wyrd isn't intentionally saying "let's make these newer models flatout better". It's just that they're a little behind the curve owing to changes in design philosophy, etc.

For what it's worth, back in January, they did a bunch of functional changes to models to bring up some models and to tone others down. I'm hopeful 10T will see some benefit from the next go-around in the summer.

Yan Lo's pretty great! I recommend looking at the named Ancestors, Komainu, and Shadowy Emissary to start.

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3 minutes ago, Durza said:

I wouldn't call Oiran and Torakage obsolete, they were never relevant. :P

Actually, Torakage is one of my best performing models. Just not in Misaki Crew. One Torakage can work wonders in McCabe's crew, carrying the Glowing Saber (thanks to positive twist to attack and damage when there are no friendly models within 3").

As for the original post, some of those models are still very much viable, though maybe not the best possible options. I use Oiran quite regularly, but I tend to treat them as scheme runners. True, they are not as versatile as Brothers, but with Hidden Agenda upgrade to make them fast, they can sometimes do great. And it for 's good to have a single Oiran when playing Neverborn/Resurrectionists, for that +1 WP aura. Izamu is also still very much viable, especially since he's considerably cheaper than Yasunori and has a built in :+fate to damage flips.

Misaki herself is my go to master against Resurrectionists - if supported with some model that can provide a push on turn 1/2, she can really put the opponent under pressure.

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20 minutes ago, Durza said:

I wouldn't call Oiran and Torakage obsolete, they were never relevant. :P

Torakage are one of my favorite models to play, with any master.  They always do well, whether its running schemes or just causing my opponent to spend more AP then they would want to remove them from the board.  Oiran are not as effective though, but their +1 to WP is nice at times.  I still don't understand why everyone says these models are worthless.

As for the original post, i don't think the models listed are worthless because of wave 3/4.  Izamu isn't useless because of Yasunori.  They both fill a similar role, but if i weren't taking any other Oni, Izamu might be a better choice then Yasunori.  There is no model in this game i have played that feels like i was at a disadvantage if i took it over a different model.  It really comes down to just playing what models you like the look of and play style (not to mention wave 4 models are the newest, and it feels like the newer models always gets move love from the player base then the older models in these types of games, even if the models are just as good.)

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My primary dedicated scheme runner these days tends to be either Wandering River Monk (wave 3) or Yamaziko (wave 1) depending on rest of my crew, schemes, opponent and terrain. Most of my stuff is waves 1 & 2 and I feel plenty competitive. My wave 3-4 stuff all feels good but I can generally find a "close enough" replacement from earlier waves that does roughly the same thing at roughly the same competence. I've never seen Oiran or Yasunori on the table so I won't comment on them and Izamu. So while I don't necessarily think new stuff eclipses the old, it's kind of hard not to have new models taking some of the spotlight. NOTHING does quite the same thing as Terracotta Warrior, and while Yasunori is "just another beater", he's a 12ss model that hits like a 12ss model and we didn't have that back in waves 1 & 2. Our Emissary from wave 3 does seem silly good, I'll give you that.

Seems to me the most recommended model of our roster remains Ten Thunders Brothers (wave 2). I don't know if that says more about the brothers than it does about general viability of earlier waves.

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I will echo that I don't feel that the older stuff is obsolete as much as it now has heavy competition for places in the crew.  I still use Izamu plenty, he just fulfills a different spot.  Yasunori is capable of deep striking and layout out serious hurt, but he needs to kill his value because he has a giant target on his back as they know he can be dragged down.  Izamu tends to be less of a deep striker for me and more of a lineman, his job is to serve shoulder to shoulder and help break the engagement.  I tend to play him with stuff that can heal him so he is harder to drag down or with stuff that can deal a hefty amount of damage itself and help him break through faster *like Railworkers*.  Though Izamu does have an issue of counterpicks a bit more if they bring anything that ignores armor, that often becomes the target of my master or other models to insure they don't get free run on Izamu when I take him.

I still also use Yamaziko from time to time myself, though she has served more as a counter scheme runner/scheme runner or a Set Yari second line.  I never got really got to use Orian that much though, the one that is doing the hand gesture's hand had a hand come off and disappear so it kind of left me down as I like that one's pose so she has sat on my desk forever and I never put the one with the fans on a base as I was debating on how to base them as I was doing different bases for my 10T masters at the time and was second guessing that decision.  But I know one player in our community that has done decent with them with their newer upgrade.  I always mean to try them in a McCabe list as with that upgrade they can be useful.

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Ototo is in Misaki's box too.  He's my go to Henchman Hardcore leader and one of my personal favorites in close deployment and headhunter or Collect the Bounty.  He's an extremely durable tarpit that makes things dead if the opponent puts a little hurt on him.  Torakage on pure stat lines alone, besides their Ml 5 and min damage of 1, are still pretty good.  Having all sixes means they'll have a defensive edge on most other scheme runners, and walk 6 makes them comparably pretty fast.  I think they're exceptionally good for shifting loyalties campaigns, especially in the first couple weeks, because they can just nonchalantly score points and hunt down scheme runners with + flips to attack while the harder hitters cull the opponent's crew.  Izamu is one that I typically only take with a reliquary Yan Lo, favoring Ototo, Kang, or the Emissary (popularly voted neck in neck with Carrion as the best emissary) a bit more.  I don't have the model yet, but Yasunori is definitely absurd; I can just picture a rite of strength into recalled training not ending well for anything within 22 inches.

The Emissary is actually the only wave 3/4 model I have table ready, and I do alright at most competitive events, usually top 3 in local tournaments and in the top 1/4 of the pack at half of my bigger events (well, everything but Nova and the TFL league last year); so I would recommend picking up an emissary.  I've heard good things about Lust and have definitely made it a point to take her out quickly when I see her, and the whole Crossroads 7 concept is just really cool.  Asami and Wandering River Monks are my next two buys, but Asami requires some other onis like Jorogumo, which I have already but haven't assembled.  Depending on what direction you're going, there are still some older staples that I'd recommend.  Illuminated are still some of the best minions in the game, and Jakob Lynch posts some great competitive results worldwide, making the Dark Debts box a great buy.  Then there's also the ubiquitous Temple of the Dawn with Shen Long, regarded as possibly our best competitive master, and more importantly his sidekick Sensei Yu.  While High River Monks just suck, Shen Long is one of the most versatile masters in the game, and Sensei Yu is a great support piece especially for Misaki, copying her stalk as a (0) then pushing her 10" and giving her fast.  Silliness ensues... well, corpses.

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Yeah I know it is just semantic, but really I was wandering while getting up to speed, on what 10T players were doing nowadays.

I am not judgmental on Wyrd strategy, but usually I like when new models affect the metagame by offering different options and playstyle, rather then filling the same role. Because that tends to end up with one or more models being put aside, because of the heavy competition. Ultimately, that is what having obsolete models is all about. I don't mind getting new models (as if I ever needed an excuse :p), and I will probably transition slowly to all those new characters for sure.

I use to like the Oiran, and my good old armor, but I can't say that a freakin' flying model is not something I want :D

I am also from Montreal, and there are no crazy hardcore scene over here, but still a lot of crew owner, so I don't need to upgrade everything now (I just want it!).

So next thing to buy are:

Yan-lo's box

Yasunori

Komainu

Shadowy Emissary 

Seems good?

Thanks for your help, and the conversation, I really appreciate!

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So I just had a game, a few days ago, against Guild (Lady Justice), and thank god one of my scheme was assassinate (I used Izamu to lure Lady Justice out, and get rid of her with our favorite scalpel Leader).

And after reading even more about the new models, I am starting to get a deeper understanding of your feedbacks. 

Apart from a very few models (Oiran :)), most are situational, and fit a specific role (add more punch, scheme runners, support, condition remover etc...) and because of the very nature of the game (strategy, scheme, and so much variety in every encounter), there are no typical list. The meta usually tends to favor new releases, and therefore, even if lots of models that people are listing are only available at preorder, or not listed on some website at all, they appear on lots of crew.

It is kind of funny, because I am looking at spending about a 100$ to do a little upgrade (got enough time to assemble and paint everything, play a bit and in a couple of months, do the same), and it seems that I could as easily start a new faction, or get a 10T box but play it as another faction. Almost like there are no benefits from already having some 10T, that is probably why people recommend it as a second factions, because it could get expensive quickly :D

So I guess, my shopping list, will more depend on my next master more than everything else!

Thanks again for helping me getting closer to illumination :)
 

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I'm actually working on an Oiran for the WP bubble - I face a ton of rezzers, and those horror duels and lures have been driving me insane.

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On 2/12/2017 at 9:50 AM, Lakshman said:

Actually, Torakage is one of my best performing models. Just not in Misaki Crew. One Torakage can work wonders in McCabe's crew, carrying the Glowing Saber (thanks to positive twist to attack and damage when there are no friendly models within 3").

As for the original post, some of those models are still very much viable, though maybe not the best possible options. I use Oiran quite regularly, but I tend to treat them as scheme runners. True, they are not as versatile as Brothers, but with Hidden Agenda upgrade to make them fast, they can sometimes do great. And it for 's good to have a single Oiran when playing Neverborn/Resurrectionists, for that +1 WP aura. Izamu is also still very much viable, especially since he's considerably cheaper than Yasunori and has a built in :+fate to damage flips.

Misaki herself is my go to master against Resurrectionists - if supported with some model that can provide a push on turn 1/2, she can really put the opponent under pressure.

 

15 minutes ago, Somnicide said:

I'm actually working on an Oiran for the WP bubble - I face a ton of rezzers, and those horror duels and lures have been driving me insane.

Oiran are things I'm willing to pay the Merc tax on if I think I'm going to be making a lot of Wp duels, so if I can get them for the sticker price running TT, I'm more than happy to. The lack of suit in their Lure just means that it's not something I'm using as their primary justification for hiring, and it helps keep them better balanced than some of their contemporaries.

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24 minutes ago, Aymar said:

So I just had a game, a few days ago, against Guild (Lady Justice), and thank god one of my scheme was assassinate (I used Izamu to lure Lady Justice out, and get rid of her with our favorite scalpel Leader).

And after reading even more about the new models, I am starting to get a deeper understanding of your feedbacks. 

Apart from a very few models (Oiran :)), most are situational, and fit a specific role (add more punch, scheme runners, support, condition remover etc...) and because of the very nature of the game (strategy, scheme, and so much variety in every encounter), there are no typical list. The meta usually tends to favor new releases, and therefore, even if lots of models that people are listing are only available at preorder, or not listed on some website at all, they appear on lots of crew.

It is kind of funny, because I am looking at spending about a 100$ to do a little upgrade (got enough time to assemble and paint everything, play a bit and in a couple of months, do the same), and it seems that I could as easily start a new faction, or get a 10T box but play it as another faction. Almost like there are no benefits from already having some 10T, that is probably why people recommend it as a second factions, because it could get expensive quickly :D

So I guess, my shopping list, will more depend on my next master more than everything else!

Thanks again for helping me getting closer to illumination :)
 

I think at this point it's rather easy to play 10t without any infiltration. Was not the case early last year with many models still waiting on their models to release.

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20 minutes ago, newsun said:

I think at this point it's rather easy to play 10t without any infiltration. Was not the case early last year with many models still waiting on their models to release.

+1 can confirm. I only play 10 Thunders and Gremlins, and Ironically I don't own Brewmaster.

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