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4thstringer

Do you even think of lucius as a NB master?

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So I was looking around for discussion of lucius in NB post errata and I noticed that very little discussion exists.  In the guild forums the changes merited considerable discussion, so it got me thinking " do they even think of Lucius as NB?"  If not, is it because of the useless box set (still not as bad as mcmourning for guild) or because collodi just plain does minion friendly obey better?   Has the errata changed your mind at all?

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As someone slowly shifting to Neverborn for a while I am excited to bring Newcius into the fold. I'm excited to try out Bloodwretch's to Issue Command their Rage Builds for some juicy charge damage. Having access to Nekima too can be a huge boost for Lucius' crew multiplication.

Bringing Dashel and Riflemen might be a fun 'gotcha!' for unexpected shooting, but it would really depend on the board and schemes, and if your opponent has seen you do it before :lol:

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I've had extensive private discussion with a couple of other Lucius players here on the forum, so it exists.

I think you're correct in assuming that Lucius' crew box is a hurdle for playing Lucius as a Neverborn Master, not everyone will rabidly buy his crew box, and then not use half of it, ever. People tend run him as an alternative Lynch, or a non-Puppet Collodi, which I think underappreciates Lucius' variety of talents, but why not just play Lynch or Collodi? 

Guardsmen, Mimics, and Minions benefit a Lucius crew, and that's the problem. 

Thematically, Guardsmen don't fit well in a Neverborn crew, and, personally, I loathe running even Austringers for that reason. There have been discussions to the tune of "Is Surprisingly Loyal worth taking if you're only getting one cross faction model?" I'd say yes, and Terracotta Warriors fixes this a bit, but for some people Lucius' value is diminished because of his cross-faction hiring pool. Bluntly, "If I wanted to play Guardsmen, I'd play Guild." 

Mimics have two problems, they don't have any powerhouse models that can compare to stuff like Illuminated, and they are thematically underdeveloped. Candy, Doppelganger, Mr. Graves, and Mr. Tannen are not primarily Mimics, and they aren't associated with Lucius in any meaningful way. The only Mimics with that attachment are Guild Lawyers. Mimic themed crews are an eclectic assortment of models, with only their (usually seconday) subtype holding them together thematically. Surprisingly Loyal indeed. It makes you feel like Neverborn Lucius takes second to his Guild alternate. That being said, this is the Lucius crew I run, and it's a challenge, everything needs to be like clockwork. It's much friendlier to go Minion-centric.

Minions. Again, Lucius relies on other Masters' crews to work this out. Changelings are great utility, but Illuminated, Autumn Knights, ect... are better primary options. You need to especially like Lucius, or what he can do, to play a Lucius Minion crew over Lynch and Collodi, or whomever else.

The Errata did turn some heads, and it certainly helped my Mimic lists, but Lucius' theme issues remain. 

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As a Neverborn Lucius player, I agree that building a crew which doesn't feel like you've swapped another Neverborn master for Lucius is difficult.

Playing him as an Issue Command bot is both boring and missing the design mark. I think the designer intended him to bring long-range shooting into a faction which has none and relies on mobility and close-quarters combat. However, as those who have tried this will tell you, it's hardly a winning strategy.

His box set has more useful than useless models (4:3), so I don't feel too bad for buying it. Some say you'll only ever need one Lawyer. My counter to that is (a) you'll need both in your first games and (b) both sculpts are worth owning.

@Masquer is right about the Mimic sub-faction's state of development and their connection to Lucius. However, this concept could actually be the key to a satisfying Lucius crew! A collection of characters who are apparently linked to other masters but subtly affiliate with Lucius. Pandora and Candy are chafing under Lilith's command. Mr. Graves and Mr. Tannen coordinate with Lucius whereas their boss fears him. Dopplegangers are master-neutral (save the one who became Viktoria's double) and only seek to cause mayhem. Titania addresses Lucius as a "Captain" of his kind, affirming the above and foreshadowing further development of this connection.

In short, I am hopeful for the future of Neverborn Lucius, but his present is not too shabby.

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7 minutes ago, tactician said:

@Masquer is right about the Mimic sub-faction's state of development and their connection to Lucius. However, this concept could actually be the key to a satisfying Lucius crew! A collection of characters who are apparently linked to other masters but subtly affiliate with Lucius. Pandora and Candy are chafing under Lilith's command. Mr. Graves and Mr. Tannen coordinate with Lucius whereas their boss fears him. Dopplegangers are master-neutral (save the one who became Viktoria's double) and only seek to cause mayhem. Titania addresses Lucius as a "Captain" of his kind, affirming the above and foreshadowing further development of this connection.

Confirmation of such would make my day. Guild-side Surprisingly Loyal seems to support that line of thinking. Then again, that's just a game mechanic and may not have one-for-one play in the lore. Mimic almost seems more like something you do, rather than something you are-if it wasn't for models with only the Mimic keyword in a faction full of race keywords, I'd say it was just another word for Infiltrator. Maybe we'll have to wait until the TTB Neverborn book arrives to find out, maybe we'll have to wait for the TTB Guild book to come out.

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Im gonna try it tomorrow.

EDIT: with this list probably

50 SS Neverborn Crew
Lucius + 5 Pool
 - Surprisingly Loyal (1)
 - Aether Connection (1)
 - On Wings Of Darkness (1)
The Scribe (2)
Rougarou (8)
Black Blood Shaman (7)
Guild Austringer (6)
Guild Austringer (6)
Terracotta Warrior (5)
Changeling (4)
Changeling (4)
Changeling (4)

 (exported from CrewFaux)

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41 minutes ago, Masquer said:

Confirmation of such would make my day. Guild-side Surprisingly Loyal seems to support that line of thinking. Then again, that's just a game mechanic and may not have one-for-one play in the lore. Mimic almost seems more like something you do, rather than something you are-if it wasn't for models with only the Mimic keyword in a faction full of race keywords, I'd say it was just another word for Infiltrator. Maybe we'll have to wait until the TTB Neverborn book arrives to find out, maybe we'll have to wait for the TTB Guild book to come out.

To be fair nephilim are hardly a race the way the word is typically used either. You can be turned into one like Tuco and adult (original born?) nephilim include: Lelus, Lilitus, Lilith, Nekima, mr Graves and Matures. 

I'm also pretty sure nightmares and woes are all over the place so those are also more job descriptions than race keywords. I agree that Lucius feels like he has the weakest theme though. Quite possibly because he was all about guardsmen in m1. The choice of who is dual faction and who just hires from other factions (Hoffman vs Lucius for example) seems a lot more driven by mechanics and faction balance than story sometimes.

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To get on the theme discussion, what about Corrupted Hounds? A New Master goes with the ordering kind of thing, and they may as well be the Guild Hounds' counterpart, being the discarded and forgotten pups from the litters that feed the Guild's kennels. Lucius seems the man to see the humor in taking the Guild's castaways when not on the clock.

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I believe there is some mention of all manner of animals mutating in the stories. But as was pointed out Lucius already has access to all the hounds he could ever need (story wise at least).

It does give the option of running eight hounds in a list which I guess is supposed to be unique to Lucius and Marcus since they are rare 4. Always found that rare rating odd when bayou gremlins aren't rare, the game was obviously ready for spamming significant 3ss models.

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40 minutes ago, Masquer said:

Mimic almost seems more like something you do, rather than something you are-if it wasn't for models with only the Mimic keyword in a faction full of race keywords, I'd say it was just another word for Infiltrator.

That wouldn't be taking the Lawyers into account, would it? They are human, but wear masks after their initiation to the finer points of the profession. It is more than a public display of allegiance to Lucius. I see them being to the shape-shifting Neverborn what Bloodwretches are to the Nephilim: adapted humans.

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For mine I always loved the idea of Lucius in either of his factions and had lists for both his allegiances.

Having said that I am not surprised that Lucius warrants more mention in Guild than in NB.

Part of this is his box set is primarily focused on Guild with some models usable in either faction with or without any Lucius special rules but mostly any Lucius box cross over models are likely to appear in other Guild lists if anywhere.

Another part of this is Lucius occupies what I think is a more unique space in the Guild in terms of narrative (Lucius is the dark NB really proper bad [at least for humans] figure) and crew theme (primarily support and obey); this is something more unique to Guild, many of their masters are more ambiguous in terms of goal but are certainly not anti-human and they don't have a puppet master style master quite in Lucius' vein.  NB however are filled with dark and malevolent masters and have two exceptional puppet-master/obey crews in Collodi and the Hag.

But perhaps the biggest reason I think for the lack of noise about the errata on NB forums compared to Guild is the errata itself has had vastly more impact for the Guild Lucius than the NB incarnation.  I have really changed a number of Guild lists since the errata while my NB ones have changed in how they play but not nearly as much in composition.  For Guild the Lucius changes, especially teamed with the Dashal changes are seismic with a wider range of really useful models now able to directly benefit from his powers.  This means that Guild lists have broken down less to the 'choices with synergy' and the 'choices without synergy' equation.  

In some ways the list of NB models benefiting from his abilities is even wider but that is exactly the point it was massively opened many NB combo's, the lists I took were based more on models I wanted than synergy more so in NB because there was simply less available synergy (it was mainly directly Lucius/Guild linked).  With the wider range of open models there is less discussion as NB players merely take the same models they liked/thought worked before "now with more synergy".  

So in summary I suspect it has been quieter in NB Lucius because:

  1. Yeah he is default thought of as more Guild than NB; I imagine not as many NB players regularly field him and less of those who are single faction NB
  2. For NB he has given them another nasty obey/control/support master and crew to add to those already in the faction and well respected.  While for Guild Lucius much more fills a niche that was under represented - so this has more Guild players excited because it is a more unique play-style for them than NB.
  3. The buff has more effect on Guild model power inclusion and selection than NB, less creation of tough choices between model A (old synergy) & B (new synergy now with less fear of imminent execution) as many more NB models got the boost there was less change to the models available to Lucius NB simply because of the boosts mainly his card profile got (see for example Austringer)
  4. Also several very useful models to Lucius guild have already been recently buffed/cuddled or released including Dashal, Guild Guard, Thralls, Scribe (NB as well but the vomit work was a more valid selection than the Guild equivalent), Austringers.  So less direct and indirect changes which effect NB Lucius crew will mean less forum celebration/outrage.

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12 hours ago, Cadaverousbirth said:

As someone slowly shifting to Neverborn for a while I am excited to bring Newcius into the fold. I'm excited to try out Bloodwretch's to Issue Command their Rage Builds for some juicy charge damage. Having access to Nekima too can be a huge boost for Lucius' crew multiplication.

Bringing Dashel and Riflemen might be a fun 'gotcha!' for unexpected shooting, but it would really depend on the board and schemes, and if your opponent has seen you do it before :lol:

Word of warning, Rage Build lasts only for the activation, so Lucius cannot activate it during his turn and have it carry over till the Bloodwretches activation.  It is why I like them with the Dreamer is because he can give them Fast so they can use the Rage Builds and then charge.

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9 hours ago, EnternalVoid said:

Word of warning, Rage Build lasts only for the activation, so Lucius cannot activate it during his turn and have it carry over till the Bloodwretches activation.  It is why I like them with the Dreamer is because he can give them Fast so they can use the Rage Builds and then charge.

*throws away my pointless models*

 

Kidding...:(

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I think there is some fluff hooks that might lead to more Neverborn Lucius.  Firstly, the new Governor General appears to not be a fan of him,  if it becomes harder to manipulate the guild, he will need to dip into neverborn resources to continue his plots.  Secondly,  Titania hints she knows exactly what type of neverborn he is.  This to me implies that he is something different from what we have explicitly seen.  This could lead to more neverborn of that type that work well with him .

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