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Slyder824

Von Schill Help

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Hi all, need some help real quick.  I'm about to face an opponent who will be playing Shenlong (other members of his crew:  unsure) for the first time and I'm wondering if this is the list I should put on the table.  Any advice / tactics will be greatly appreciated.

Von Schill (The shirt come off + Survivalist + Engage at will)

Steam Trunk

Hannah (Ancient Tomes)

Strongarm Suit (Oath keeper)

Specialist

Librarian

Johan

1SS left in the pool.

I'm pretty sure he'll bring Sensi Yu and a Peasant with him. 

Thanks everyone!!

 

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General advice, take more stones and try to get another activation. I don't run with fewer than 5ss on a master that doesn't have some way to generate them (Lucius, for example, can run with just his base cache).

Specific advice, unless you're expecting mass paralyze or some kind of marker bs the specialist isn't going to pull its weight - even then unless they are coming to you he's going to struggle, but I can see him into Neverborn or Ressurectionists. He's not doing anything for you in this match-up. Likewise, I think Ancient Tomes is probably dead weight and I question the utility of having both Hannah and the Strongarm in the same crew.

I'd drop Hannah and the Specialist for a Trapper and a couple scheme runners. The amount of blast resistance and condition removal in your crew will play you in good stead, but you could use some friendly movement support though I can't think of a good source for it other than the Emissary...

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I don't know much about Shenlong, but I agree on the specialist.  I can't see him bringing anything useful.  Don't know about Hannah - personally I like to have around 3 SS, but some people are happy running 1 with von Schill.  I think you have enough condition removal with Johan and the steam trunk. 

 

Looking at the PMF article it looks like Shenlong may mess around with conditions are bit, so you might want to keep some of your models fairly close and keep Johan alive, I probably wouldn't want vS to stray too far away - but of course it always depends on your schemes/strats. 

 

I think the trapper will work well. 

 

Check out the pull my finger article on shenlong and sensei yu

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Hannah is boss, basically a second Librarian who can also wreck face in melee, lock up nice chunks of the board and strip enemy suits (which is huge).

 

I've never found use for Trappers, even with focus their damage is pretty middling (but that's my experience)

 

Specialist is the pure glass cannon

If you can protect him - he's gonna murder some shit real good.

If you can't, he's a liability

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Specialist only with Jack and Viks + Emissary. Only there you have really a chance to use him properly.

In your list you can take 2x Winged Plague instead as a cheap, independent scheme runners. 

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Do you know what strategy & schemes you'll be playing? That usually helps me build a crew. Here's a few pointers about Shenlong:

Wandering River Style moves scheme markers with ease. Either don't pick marker based schemes or pack enough killing power to take out Shenlong and Yu so they can't move your markers.

Low River Style is a great healing upgrade. Don't half kill stuff, either squash stuff in an activation or don't bother. Odds are it'll get healed back up, but then that's AP not used to support rest of his crew.

Sensei Yu is relatively fragile at Df6 Wd10, but costs a whooping 11ss after the near mandatory upgrade. He doesn't really earn his keep until he's buffed the heck out of his crew for three or so turns straight. I hate it when he goes down early without contributing to the game.

Katanaka Snipers seem to be a popular pick if forums are to be believed. In a Shenlong crew they can fire two focused shots per activation. If you see them on the table be aware of their threat range and damage potential.

This crew can push a model potentially 14'' up the table and give it fast. Don't get surprised by an alpha strike. That same mobility can be used to achieve position based schemes (Entourage, Take Prisoner etc.).

Shenlong is only ml6 with 2/3/5 but can shut down soulstone use and (0) actions. He has easy access to focus and with Fermented River Style he can get :+fate to damage with minimal effort. He's not a melee beast but don't underestimate him. He's more than capable of killing models that are low on wounds if it earns VP. Misdirection upgrade and defensive stance makes him a pain to kill when near other models.

Odds are he brings at least one beater model (Lone Swordsman, Izamu etc.). That beater will not take walk actions. That beater will routinely have Fast. That beater will be up your face. That beater will be healed up to full after you've spent an activation, maybe even two chained activations wailing on it. It helps a lot if you can ignore said beater's defences or act after Shenlong and Sensei Yu have activated.

Far as taking a Shenlong crew head on, I reckon your best bet is to kill the crew. Support masters really lose their lustre when there's nothing to support.

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I face off against a pretty scary Shenlong player often enough, and it's really rough to play against the first few games. Peasants secure Focus for other models, use up activations, then get sacrificed and resummoned. With your list, you'll be fully activated and an average Shenlong crew will likely still have 2-3 models left to go with.

Any decent shooting model becomes exemplary with Shenlong and Peasants handing out Focus like they do; snipers are undoubtedly popular, but I've also seen Archers, Samurai, Dawn Serpents etc getting out of hand. I've double Vent Steam'd in Hard Cover with Mei and the Sniper can still get a straight flip if he wants to hit something. 

If you're against a shooty Shenlong list, particularly if Snipers are present, engage as soon as you can or prepare to get wiped off the board by turn 3/4. Schemes and deployment allowing, aim to get all of your models into combat by end of turn 2.

If there's multiple melee fighters (The Lone Swordsman/Yasunori/Izamu/Jorogumo sometimes), especially with Emissary or Sensei Yu present, you really can't stop them getting wherever they want to go. As mentioned above by others, they will all get some combination of Fast/Focused and get pushed into Cg range of your things. 

The plus side is all these things are very costly. There's not many SS left over once your opponent buys Sensei Yu, some shooters and a melee combatant or two, saves a few for his or her cache and all the upgrades he'll want in there (there's lots of popular 2ss upgrade choices...).

Depending on the schemes and the Shenlong list, I'd either bait the melee elements in his or her crew into overextending or if they're not too scary (which indicates he's probably gone very shooty or schemey) just go balls to the wall and get engaged with everything you have, as soon as you can. 

If you're able to catch their Melee model(s) facefirst with Strongarm Suit or vS himself, maybe even Hannan, you should probably survive and be able to heal up. They're all tough as nails as not many Ten Thunder models ignore Armour (though definitely be wary if you're up against The Lone Swordsman.

Hiding in combat with your models will force Shenlong/Yu to re position their friends instead of handing out/ stealing Conditions.

Good luck!

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To be honest I'd be trying to squeeze a couple of Trappers into my list. Generally they're more use than a Specialist, and probably more than Johan if you're going against a list that doesn't hand out conditions.

Of course not everyone has two Freikorps Trappers.

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Doesn't Shenlong and his crew benefit from putting conditions on each other?  Johan could mess with that a bit....if he can get close enough.  10" range on that action though. 

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Thank you all for the words of advice.  I read all of them and with your help, I made the decision to Drop Hanna and Specialist for Bishop (Oathkeeper) and Trapper.  Planning on Bishop to be the scheme runner in the beginning and then join up with Suit and Johan.  Anymore words of advise would be great.  Thank again all!!

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32 minutes ago, Slyder824 said:

Thank you all for the words of advice.  I read all of them and with your help, I made the decision to Drop Hanna and Specialist for Bishop (Oathkeeper) and Trapper.  Planning on Bishop to be the scheme runner in the beginning and then join up with Suit and Johan.  Anymore words of advise would be great.  Thank again all!!

I have a massive soft spot for Bishop - I try to fit him in as my 10SS beater as often as I can, haters be damned! He is SUPER fragile though - he is only 6/6 and any min damage 3 beater model will merk the dude in the blink of an eye, so either keep him away from big models and use him to mince little scheme runners, or have a plan to keep him safe! If he can get to the Steam Trunk in a pinch, or at any point during his activation then he is a happy pit fighter (especially since he doesn't have any competing zero actions), and being in range of the librarian is also pretty nice to keep him swinging.

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Last time I ran him he got the opposing Taelor down to one wound based purely on his defensive trigger!

We came up with this visual that, while charging, Taelor managed to trip over and smack her face on her own relic hammer....

 

I like him in headhunter - charge, kill something, then pick up the head.

He can definitely wipe out enemy scheme runners then drop schemes with his 3AP.  Is that a better option than 2 x 5SS models?  Maybe, maybe not.  On one hand, it's still one fewer AP.  On the other hand, 2 x 5 SS minions can struggle to take out another 2 x 5 SS minions.  Outcasts aren't really the strongest at that level, IMO.  But then again, Bishop is so squishy that a minion can kill him by shooting.  

Wokou Raider could probably fill that same space nicely.  only 2 AP but will kill scheme runners nicely, and 2 SS less

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On 24/1/2017 at 11:38 PM, daniello_s said:

Specialist only with Jack and Viks + Emissary. Only there you have really a chance to use him properly.

In your list you can take 2x Winged Plague instead as a cheap, independent scheme runners. 

Von Schill need cheap scheme runners, you used time ago void wretches if I remember your blog.

Convict Gunslinger, Void Wretches, Winged Plague...what do you prefer?

Ronin is a solid minion

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3 hours ago, Peppi said:

Von Schill need cheap scheme runners, you used time ago void wretches if I remember your blog.

Convict Gunslinger, Void Wretches, Winged Plague...what do you prefer?

Ronin is a solid minion

That was the time when Void Wretches was only really good scheme runners option in Outcasts. Now I consider Winged Plagues as the best Outcasts can offer.

Ronin is solid model but with cost 6SS it's hard to be considered a scheme runner. Of course if not bothered Ronin can do scheme running but Winged Plagues are faster and have flight.

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When running vS I tend to prefer freikorpsmenn to ronin, particularly if they're going to be in his 6" bubble.  Never been able to get Ronin to do anything useful myself.  That Sh4 is just a killer.

 

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1 hour ago, daniello_s said:

Ronin is not for shooting her gun ;)

true.  I think I need to get out of the bad habit of trying to do unsuitable things with my models. 

"wait, Misaki is in the open?  Ronin, KILL HER!!!"

*pop*

*sounds of breaking glass somewhere nowhere near Misaki*

*sounds of Misaki casually beating the living snot out of my master while ignoring the mere existence of my Ronin*

 

Both Ronin and Freikorpsmann have advantages and disadvantages over each other.  Whether you intend on putting the F'mann in the von Schill bubble of 'Hard to Kill by another name' should probably factor into the decision as well.  Their comparisons have been discussed in other threads anyway. 

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If you are worried about the peasant shenanigans, then Hans keeps the list honest. Give him scout the field, and if Shenlong ever drops to 1 peasant, all of a sudden he is on 0 peasants. Trappers can attempt something similar, but its much easier to hold things out of line of sight of the trappers. Plus Hans canm really annoy Sensi Yu by removing his ability to change upgrades. (he could manage it to shenlong as well, but that's easier for shenlong to stop, at the cost of cards from his hand)

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