Wave 3+4- a 6ish and 18ish month review

[4thstringer]

Since we've had Wave 4 for about 6 months or so, I am curious as to how the way you are playing Wave 3 and 4.  Has it changed?  How have the individual models been used by you, and how have you liked them when you do use them?  

My thoughts:

Wave 3:

Orderly- decent scheme runner, but eclipsed by the field reported in most situations.

Grimwell- doesn't hit as hard as I would like for a beater.  I hear he is fun with Nellie, but haven't tried him yet.  I like using him to get a first turn Claim marker down, but haven't had much other success with him.

Heartsbane- She was my favorite model for a while.  If you get the suits in hand she can really make your opponent regret not having condition removal.  But I've used her less since nellie came out.

Queeg- I've enjoyed him when I used him, kind of a toolbox, but I often forget about him.

Mounted guard- I don't have him or a good proxy, so haven't really gotten to explore him as I would like.   Feels like the charge thing would be a good surprise against an unskilled opponent, but not a good one.

Sanctioned Spellcasters- Love their collar gimmick, but really have to build for it.  I don't play a lot against ressers or NB, which seem like where they would be most useful.

Emissary: I use the heck out of it.  I've used it with everyone, but hoff and nellie have given me the most fun with it.  My opponents hate when I bury my own model turn one, and its seems to hit moderate or severe regularly enough to really scare my opponents.  Probably my kill leader in guild.  Still don't like it with lucius, but for the other 6 (I don't play McCabe) I've made it work.  Not sure I'd keep using it with dita or sonnia though.

Pride: I haven't gotten much use out of our CR7 representative.  Too expensive for being so fragile imo.

Wave 4:

Nellie- Everything I wanted Lucius to be, the control and toolbox I've always wanted.    Loving exploring mercs with her.  I think gg2017 will be even better for her.  Johan and performers are really nice without merc tax.  Suspect FK trackers will be too if I ever buy them.  So many things to still try with her.

Printing press- auto take with nellie.  Great tarpit, and free cards.  If only it were a minion

Phiona- Wrecks face, does dig their graves really well, get to Def 7 on the regular.  What isn't to like?

Field Reporter- my go to scheme runner.  Cheap, tougher to kill than you would expect, and their push is really irritating for my opponents.  Wish their scheme marker ability had more range.

Allison Dade- I can't seem to get much out of her.  If her auras were the other way around she would be much more useful.  Needs an engagement range.  I'll probably keep trying, but using a proxy.

Witchling Thralls- Loving them with lucius.  Usually only take one though, as I'm finding more to be too expensive.  Can imagine they would work with Nellie, but not sure they would be better than other options with her.

Death marshall recruiters- wish that their ability to make people guild marshalls wasn't suited.  Its to hard to depend on it as is.  Decent price for a min dam 3 support model though.

For Lucius:

Changelings: mixed bag of experiences with them, will give them another go in the world of the errata.  Liked them with Heartsbane, because they were cheap ways to put out her no move condition.

TC Warrior- almost autotake, due to all the fun interactions with lucius.  Curfew repeated was kind of a disappointment, but man is it hard to kill a thrall that can shake off the random big hit.

Upgrades

Confluxes: see Emissary

Research Grant: I've never seen the value in it, but I've heard of others making it work with nellie.

Heartsbanes upgrade: Never seen the point of it.  

Debt to the guild- Consistently taken, consistently useful.

Numb to the world- great on a beater, or in schemes like accusation or tailem.

Ready to work- makes the executioner great again.

Curfew- meh.  I had dreams it would matter, and brought it a bunch.  Haven't really gotten a ton of mileage out of it, but I also don't regularly play against summoning.  Every once in a while still fun to build for though.

Wrath of the guild- makes phiona scary, especially with neliies activation control.

Daschel's upgrade-  I'm still mixed on this one.  Not sure what I think, but I'm finding myself considering him with this and vengance bullet a fair amount.

Transparency- Can be super useful, scheme and opponent dependent.  Telegraphs a little, but that may be the bluff you need.  Wish it was within 3 inches like the Mech rider.

Nellies upgrades: Embedded gets taken a lot, the activation control one is almost auto take at this point.  Guild funds is interesting, but I tend to use my evidence for propaganda.  Stacking multiple effects really makes her shine.  I should probably build for it and see how it goes.

 

I'm probably forgetting some models or upgrades, and I'm sure as things get discussed I'll have more thoughts.  How have you been using the wave three and four models?  

 

 

[Cadaverousbirth]

Standouts-

Nellie. This will be common answer among everyone I feel. She does things for the Guild that we never had before and that opens up so many options and puts us back into competitive contention. It helps that everything she does is good - although Hot off the Presses is situational, but useful if it pops up, and her totem is the best Guild has to offer.

Field Reporters. Another common pick here I feel, arguably our best scheme runner now and has always delivered 2-3 at least on their own. Great models too which really keeps them interesting and fun to take, versus the Watcher who is our second best scheme runner but also has a weird perspective-skewey sculpt. 

New Lucius. Not in a wave but he needs to be mentioned I feel. Removing the hand tieing restrictions with the latest Errata has really opened up his playstyle to becoming functional. I picked up his box to try him out and I am quickly falling for the masked chap. Headhunter? Easy peasy. Any scheme that needs markers, of which there are plenty GG2017? He makes it easy. For a cool segway we have to mention the best big beef minion we have now...

Witchling Thralls. Oh my god these guys are beasts, going over 1000MPH with Lucius. Extra "free" actions (still have to flip a card but always passes Lucius' horror duels), a great Ml attack with auto-heals OR auto card draining depending (side note: combined with Austringers this will eliminate your opponents hand very quickly) AND an excellent Ca with blasts that wont randomize. Combined with their zero action to reposition to friendly models makes them amazingly mobile with a huge threat range. Hunting Party in the pool? Tell your opponent "good luck" as you ram two of these bad boys down their throat, but do it in a nice way and always with a smile. I haven't tried them out with McCabe yet but I assume there will be similar results there.

Arrest Him. It's free, gives triggers and an easy to get off summon on a model that doesn't usually fill up his upgrade slots anyway. Dashel with Debt and Arrest Him can dish out some serious hurt at range. I love it. Guild Guard may be garbage but it's a free body for Interference or Guard the Stash that can be key for VP. 

Debt/Numb. Oh my god yes. The best things to happen for Guild so far. I will never not take one of these to a game, likely both depending. Telling Lynch that I will in fact NOT be given Brilliance is amazing.Making Franc min damage 4 is sooooo good. 

Middle cards-

Phiona. I love this lady but she hasn't been an auto-take for me outside of Nellie (in which case she goes top tier, but not in general) but she is definitely a good choice and wouldn't disappoint. Wrath of the Guild is stapled to her and then its a choice between Debt or Transparency depending on what you wanted to do. If Show of Force and Hunting Party are around she can be an absolute monster to deal with. She doesn't give much crew benefit in comparison to Francisco so that is why she falls somewhere in the middle for me. 

Grimwell & Orderlies. These lads are alright. Nothing obviously bad about them but Grimwell especially needs some help so he isn't popped right away. I think they suffer from better choices (cheaper ones like Phiona/Reporters) but they can still do the work they're hired to do. Themed crews look amazing with these as well.

Queeg. With the right set-up can be great and in low point games he can be an excellent leader as well. He's a buffer/debuffer which doesn't fit too well in my own playstyle. He definitely is not a bad choice for the right crew, I just haven't shined to him as I have other things. I love his fluff and his model so I'd reach for him from time to time but not always. 

Brutal Emissary. I think our Emissary is definitely on the powerful side between all seven of them, maybe second only to Shadow. His effectiveness varies depending on your master, with Hoffman likely getting the most out of him. He is a very solid model, but there is usually one or two models I could take to replace him if I felt like it. He's always a "maybe" pick for me, so he falls in the middle. Like but not love. Definitely the best sculpt out of all seven. 

Ugh why did I take this-

Nurse Heartsbane. She's never done a good enough job for her cost before dying to a small breeze. The only use so far has been shocking McMourning up a bit first turn which Grimwell, Aiustringers, or a Nurse will do anyway. Enforcers with suit requirements on their base abilities aren't great - unreliable and swinging, especially for 8 stones. In friendly, themey crews I'd take her, but I wouldn't expect to see her anywhere outside of that. 

Pride. She has some fun abilities but has the same problem as Hearstbane, all she does well is die. Again an 8 stone model that doesn't live up to the cost. I haven't played with the other Crossroads 7 but I assume she would be a bit better there but I don't know. Love the model/fluff but I can't bring myself to use her anymore. 

Curfew. It's just so situational to be really useful. It isn't bad when used properly, but that can be hard to do. Now with Last Stand being a thing I could see taking it a bit more often just to screw over the opponent, unless we're both going for it... I haven't played against many summoners lately so that may color my opinion the wrong way. *shrug*

 

Things I want to try but haven't yet-

Ready to Work. On paper this looks amazing and I'm sure it is, I just haven't had the time to bring the big boys out to play yet.

Mounted Guard. Yes please, one day soon.

Allison Dade. Love the model, fluff, and her rules. I'm excited to use her with Lucius and some Guardsmen too. I feel like she's the mini-Nellie as Queeg is the mini-Lucius. Love it.

Death Marshall Recruiters. More skills. More flames. More beef. My LGS should be getting them soon so I'm excited!

Sanctioned Spellcasters. I have them but haven't found a way to use them well to bring them out. I should just throw one in and see, but I've been busy with other stuff lately. Soon.

[Gnomezilla]

I have only a few of them yet, but:

Queeg. I adore Promises. Promises and modified constructs with Queeg whipping them up-field. Promises into henchman hardcore was evil (although I stand by that it was more worthwhile with 3 single-upgrade beaters than 2 double-upgrade beaters--will try to have those two crews butt heads for a rematch). I even get use out of a pure push model and whatever trigger gets flipped by his whip.

Sanctioned spellcasters. My meta is such that they will always throw at least a small wrench into my opponent's plan. They die immediately, and I have had piss-poor luck with getting their offensive triggers off--maybe twice in ten games?--but 'no charge' or 'no 0 action' was devastating to the correct target. Was considering one for HH to hold Francisco and the El Mayor target* close, as well as the 'no charge' trigger and power against incorporeal opponents.

I just wish I hadn't botched the paint that badly. Now that my stuff's mostly painted I'm ashamed to field them.

Brutal emissary. Still waiting on cards. In fact the disturbing giant stompybot seems, at the moment, to be used as a prop to hold some even taller, twiggy, half-painted GW product. Not happy. But, well, disturbing giant stompybot. Doubt I'll be disappointed.

 

*see Guild HH discussion

[trikk]

Top:

Nellie + Printing Press: Insanely Versatile. Giving support/heals is great. Propaganda is also great but I think Misleading Headlines is what makes her shine. She can probably play into almost every GG17 scheme pool without being handicapped

Phiona: I like her with Nellie. I played her a bit with Sonnia with decent results. My opponents usually want to tie Sonnia in Combat and this gives you a 5th wall and Look Out! She`s very good in HP/SoF

Reporters: Last Tournement the fewer of those ladies I had the worse it was. They are very difficult to take down for 4SS and the marker swapping is really annoying to your opponents.

Numb to the World: This is usually on Peacekeeper/Frank/Phiona/Papa Loco. It makes you immune to Tail`em and Accused. It makes you immune to Paralyze/Mood Swings. It makes you pretty immune to Obeys. With the correct models its an autopick

A Debt: I usually bring 0-2 of those. I don`t think its overpowered but its my default general upgrade. Suddenly you can have a lot of min damage 3/4 models in key turns.

 

Middle:

Master Queeg: I think all he needs is a built in ram for min 2 if you declare Crit Strike and he would be very good. My go-to HH guy as he can pick up a head in 8" and that 3" is annoying vs a lot of 1" engage models.

Sanctioned Spellcaster: I tried one once and he dished out a lot of damage for 5SS. The anti-push thing might affect activation order but I think all they lack is another keyword behind "Academic"

Brutal Emissary: I tried him with Hoff and he`s great. I probably would skip him for everyone else except maybe Justice. He requires a crew to be built around him and his min 2 doesn`t convince me.

Ready to Work: Works great. Executioniers will be better in GG17 anyways as there are more marker schemes. 

Orderlies: I tried them once or twice and they didn`t do anything spectacular but I wasn`t really dissapointed too.

 

Meh:

Grimwell: I tried him 2 times. Once with Sonnia and once with Perdita. Both times he didn`t really do much. He is very squishy for his cost and he can`t kill a necropunk without A Debt To The Guild . I do however know that people get a lot of good things from him.

Heartsbane: I tried her 2 times. She is very card dependant. If you don`t have the right cards she`s pretty useless. She could definitely have 1 or 2 more Wds as she suffers the same thing Grimwell does: too much cost for a big target shield with low Wds

 

Unknowns with Predictions:

Death Marshal Recruiter: nice beater enforcer, good mobility. the Guild Marshal Recruitment being suited is a bit of a hindrance but they are ok. I would try them with Lady Justice definitely.

Allison: I think the Guardsmen damage is a bit of trap. You can tak 1-2 dogs and it should be enought. The triggers are nasty and if you buff her with Frank and give her Numb she might be a real pain to deal with.

Thralls: good for Lucius, great for McCabe. Have them but I rarely play both masters so didn`t have the time to test them.

Mounted Guards: I`m starting to like them more and more. While they don`t do anything great they seem like solid and tough minions. The Executionier pull might also be fun.

Greed: Good for 7SS. Unfortunately she costs 8 which is too much. I feel no need to test her out.

[McSkip]

I would really like to get an idea how you guys play the emissary with nellie

[4thstringer]

My favorites use the emissary as a delivery system for a fast, el mayored model upboard first turn.  Usually with the fast emissary having curfew to slow any reacting models.  Emissary can put the model 18 inches up the board, or more if your opponent has scheme markers down.

Favorites for me include:

Grimwell to do stake a claim.

sam hopkins with vengance bullet, lots of stones for ricochet triggers and debt to the guild.  Bonus points if a handler can give the shots burning, so after first shot you are still causing destruction.  (great for taking out big henchmen, with friendly models nearby to ricochet onto)

Haven't done executioner or peacekeeper yet.

 

[McSkip]

Man that sounds like fun! Or like putting too many eggs in one basket

[DoctorWhat]

In defense of Nurse Heartsbane:

 

She's definitely quite greedy for suits, but I'm loving her as a bodyguard for Sonnia.

You can whack Sonnia for 2 damage and a 6" move versus the max 5 of Hermanos De Armas, which she'll just heal off with the Brutal Effigy.

Her conditions are debilitating, but costly in terms of suits. Most of our models don't care though and are quite effcient, where a suit popping up is just some added damage to the slaughter. She can completely shut down just about any beater (currently enjoying it the most against Jack Daw).

[EnternalVoid]

I have actually been having decent results with Grimwell with Lady Justice.  Been taking him and an Executioner with Lady J and the three have been rather stellar.  First turn he generally has been giving either Lady J or the Executioner  the 4" move from Doctor's Orders so they can reach a target turn 1.  He then moves twice himself in prep for turn 2 generally.  He does not do a beater's job as much as he has run interference or support for me.

Examples, he saved my bacon against Bete Noir twice in the last month.  The first time I had Bete end up next to a wounded Lady J.  Bete had 2 wounds left and Lady J had already activated.  My opponent thought he had her but thanks to Nimble Grimwell was able to reposition and charge Bete putting her in the ground before she could go.  In another game, interference, a canine remain took out one of my Guild Hounds with lucky damage on the charge.  He popped Bete up to get to work but Grimwell walked over and used Lobotomy to take her out in one hit.  Same game he found it was hard to disengage from Grimwell to try and score for Interference.  In another game he used Doctors Orders to remove models from combat as it is a move and not a walk action so they could deny or score VP.  Once he even did it to himself so he could move out of combat, nimble, and then drop a scheme marker.  He has not been the MVP in the games I have taken him but still done pretty well.  My biggest issue with him has been his lack of (0) action, I have been tempted to throw Dampening Field on him because of it but have not tried it yet.

I imagine though it will be interesting to run him with Nellie as with Fast he can either chase down a scheme runner or nimble, focus, and with two decent cards deal 10 damage.  Maybe take Envy too and you can double up the Focus with his (0) action to handle models with Hard to Wound or that can use SS for a negative to damage.  But sadly I have not put Nellie together yet.  Lucius can sort of do this to with his Commanding Presence walk.  I imagine it can also be used to have him use Doctor's Order so he can use both his AP for charging or attacking.

[4thstringer]

19 hours ago, McSkip said:

Man that sounds like fun! Or like putting too many eggs in one basket

Oh definitely.  If there is one thing I love it's lists that put a lot of eggs in one basket.  But lucky most of those pieces are pretty good on their own. 

[4thstringer]

I like that heartsbane has that push.   It gives her a huge threat range, or the ability to move forward,  drop her condition once with the suit you have,  then push away. 

[ringsnake]

I put together a 'medical malpractice' 35ss crew just for funsies with McMourning (On the Clock, Plastic Surgery, Unknowable Pain), Nurse, Heartsbane, Grimwell, and two Orderlies I think... it was a long time ago, so I may have gotten some of the details wrong.

Crew went crazy fast with quite a bit of offensive punch to it. Weakness was that they kept soiling their pants when confronted with WP tests.

Highlights of the game:

Heartsbane stuffing Killjoy into a Straightjacket, and if I hadn't brain farted, should have pulled it off at least two turns in a row.

Giving Precise to Grimwell, which failed only due to exceptionally bad card draws.

In either that game, or some other game, I dropped the nurse to add Disrupt Magic, and since all of the crew are Witch Hunters, they shut down a Resser Summon list pretty effectively. Local Resser player is fond of creating a crew of all support pieces, and then bringing in hitters with summons.

I won't say it's the best ever, but it was fun, and that counts for a lot.

[Jam Warrior]

On 23/01/2017 at 7:46 PM, Cadaverousbirth said:

Witchling Thralls. Oh my god these guys are beasts, going over 1000MPH with Lucius. Extra "free" actions (still have to flip a card but always passes Lucius' horror duels), a great Ml attack with auto-heals OR auto card draining depending (side note: combined with Austringers this will eliminate your opponents hand very quickly) AND an excellent Ca with blasts that wont randomize. Combined with their zero action to reposition to friendly models makes them amazingly mobile with a huge threat range. Hunting Party in the pool? Tell your opponent "good luck" as you ram two of these bad boys down their throat, but do it in a nice way and always with a smile. I haven't tried them out with McCabe yet but I assume there will be similar results there.

Late reply, but Hunting Party requires kills made by Henchmen or Enforcers, and a Thrall is a Minion.

[trikk]

The idea was that its hard to score HP if the enemy.has 2 witchling thralls

[Cadaverousbirth]

@Jam Warrior I love your username. Trikk answered with the highest level of accuracy. 

[4thstringer]

My only problem with 2 thralls in hunting party is that I struggle with it's trying to get those points myself.   

[Cadaverousbirth]

1 hour ago, 4thstringer said:

My only problem with 2 thralls in hunting party is that I struggle with it's trying to get those points myself.   

With Lucy and the Thralls (great band name) I'd avoid Hunting Party and take more schemey schemes. Thralls can take a hit and interact like crazy, giving each other free attacks, in Lucius' bubble. Guild still loves HP but you'd probably want to build a crew around it more. Thralls are all denial for that scheme.