Advice against Sandeep

[mojopin]

Hi there, I could really use some resser help... Lately I´ve been facing a sandeep list (with little variations) including joss and kundra, both with runes upgrades, 3 oxfordian mages with 2 upgrades each, and sanctioned spellcasters or effigy. The point is that no matter wich master I use (I dont have reva yet. Today I lost with kirai) I cant deal with joss with armour 2, inmune to conditions, counterspell and regen given by oxfordian mages. Also mages flurries with no randomization thanks to sandeep and teleport copying sandeep placing action making a highly effective gunline wich breaks havoc in my lists.

 

Moreover there are those possitive flips to iniciative and those gamin summoning with vanasuba consuming my resources turn after turn. No matter wich schemes y choose, this friend of mine Im facing (who is quite skilled too) plays very agressively and by turn 3 I tend to have little option to accomplish anything due to lack of models. Personally i find Sandeep's summoning superior or as good as most of ressers masters with no need of corpse markers or victimizing your own models. This doesnt intend to be a cryer topic, actually seeking advice to overcome theese difficulties. Thanks! 

[Adran]

Have you considered decaying Aura on a beater?  Makes Joss an unhappy model very quickly. When I face Kirai I expect Izamu with decaying aura to be swirled quite late in turn 1 and kill something of mine that crossed the half way line.     If you're worried about the gamin  summoning, then ignore them when possible. Sandeep can only summon 3 Gamin at any one time, so if you don't kill them off, he can't get more. 

I normally find the Oxfordian mages end up very bunched, and unless you have to be in the place where they are bunched (e.g.turf war) you can try and  avoid the large group. They are still good when spread out, but then the chances are his warding runes won't be able to see all 3 mages. 

[Clement]

Adding to Adran's comment.  A belle or two to help lure models into Beater range is always a good plan.  Even post cuddle they're still pretty functional (Personally, I find needing at least a 5 to get Lure off more annoying then the Ca 7 now)

[mojopin]

I feel that part of the problem is playing guard the stash and extraction with tables lacking hard cover in the center,  it becomes a shooting range. I wonder what would be a fair way of setting the table in those circunstances. Maybe letting both players placing an extra piece of scenery before Deployment,  not sure. What do you think? 

[godswearhats]

I would recommend taking McMourning vs Sandeep, for multiple reasons:

1. Poison ignores Armor (Joss, Metal Gamin)
2. Kudra can Poison your models all she wants and they won't really mind
3. Things that work in a bubble (summoned Gamin, Mages) work in McMourning's favor
4. Sebastian can help keep your crew protected from Mages using Under Cover

A list such as this:

• McMourning, Plastic Surgery, Moonlighting
• Zombie Chihuahua
• Sebastian
• Rafkin
• Carrion Emissary, Conflux of Forbidden Knowledge
• Nurse
• Rotten Belle
• Anna Lovelace

I included Anna because her 8" bubble helps a lot vs Sandeep - his free teleports now can't move him or his models quite as deeply, she creates more zombies, can shoot into combat and push Sandeep and his cronies where they don't want to be. You've got a couple of stones available for potential upgrades, or take a 7SS cache. My Little Helper seems good on either Rafkin or Anna. The Carrion Emissary will make a couple zombies for you and then throw Poison onto a lot of models (feel free to throw that Poison Fog at your own Zombie to maximize blast damage). Obviously, the Shards are great for blocking LoS but they don't slow Sandeep down that much, hence Anna.

Hope this helps,

~gwh

 

[unti]

You could make your own blocking terrain with the emissarys shards action or you play someone like sebastian who s aura is against shooting. Another idea are night terrors to reduce the range of their attacks...

Just thinking out loud here...

[Adran]

16 hours ago, mojopin said:

I feel that part of the problem is playing guard the stash and extraction with tables lacking hard cover in the center,  it becomes a shooting range. I wonder what would be a fair way of setting the table in those circunstances. Maybe letting both players placing an extra piece of scenery before Deployment,  not sure. What do you think? 

Firstly, set up the table before you know what you are doing. Secondly, there should not be a huge area in the middle of the board that is terrain free in any game. 

And Thirdly, Guard the stash automatically has 2 Ht 5 Hard cover blocking bits of Terrain added to it. The Stash Markers!

[Vorschlag]

On 1/24/2017 at 6:24 AM, mojopin said:

I feel that part of the problem is playing guard the stash and extraction with tables lacking hard cover in the center,  it becomes a shooting range. I wonder what would be a fair way of setting the table in those circunstances. Maybe letting both players placing an extra piece of scenery before Deployment,  not sure. What do you think? 

The entire board should have no clear lines between the deployment zones if that's what you mean.

If you mean horizontally across the centre line - then yes that's a valid point and one that may need to also be considered for tournament tables. 

[Fictor]

Hi dudes!

I'm the Sandeep player, and... ofc we use hard and soft cover elements, please do not treat us like a noobs.

All our group play very agressive combos, to kill T1 1/2 miniatures, Pacekeeker, Howard IE, Poison & Transfusion, the problem that my mate has with Sandeep is he can put in his face T1 Gamin to give  Atack + Banasuva with slow inmunity engaged with the most miniatures has posible

The last game, I can engage these miniatures with 5 enemies, and then use his 1Ap do not randomize, and with teleport I can flurry with Oxfordian out cover.

It's really hard goet cover of all your models vs a PLACEMENT of 6' in three miniatures (I know I only can use that hability 1 time, it's enough, can copy the CA of Sandeep too and it doesn't have a gun printed)

The best advice IMO it's the inclusion of  Night Terrors, I didn't count play  McMourning, also it's a great option but we play with tournament rules and we declared faction before the game, no master, and he can use McMourning and I can take another Master =P

[Adran]

I'm just going to say the cover responses were in reply to the original poster saying that there wasn't enough.

From what you both say you are managing to put Sandeep within 6" of the enemy models at the same time as summoning 2 Gamin using a 8 and 12. The first Gamin is within 3 or Banasuva to give him positive flips, and Banasuva, despite not being able to cheat is causing huge damage to his crew, or at least reagually succeeding in preventing them from disengaging. 

You are also managing to use 6 to push your enforcers about. (and I assume a 5 on sandeep to teleport him as otehrwise you have only managed at most to walk him 5" forward)

 

Well I think the first thing I would advise is that he needs to spread his models out a little more, and also to consider activation order and potential threats. If The bonus on Bansuva is doing to much, then walk away or kill the source of the aura. Also since this is happening on the first turn, don't just rush models forwards. The oxfordian with the place on the first turn only has a threat up to 22" into the board. 

 

In all honesty, advice given on the forums is always going to be very generalised. As the Sandeep player, Fictor, do you see things that Mojopin could have done to either make your approach less effective, or ways to have dealt with it afterwards? 

 

 

 

 

[mojopin]

Hi again!  Nice chat here. Im actually looking forward to face sandeep again.  I think Kirai should do better next time,  taking Philip &  the nanny (and take back the night)  in extraction was a mistake I like that card manipulation but it takes 4 ap, 2 interactions plus 2ap from Philip and leaving him static needing another ap from Kirai to swirl him closer. 

Another mistake was putting mindless zombies from shards next to his mages because they gained stones killing them . 

And other problem was getting Joss over me super fast. Being inmune to adversary,  having armor and regeneration,  ressers,  low damage outputs wouldnt take him down. 

To summarize I expect that working in swirling some spirits near their mages should improve the outcome BUT...   (cryer mode on) Well positioned mages with flurrys that can handle slow or burning or push the target away or  ignore armor, buff your henchmans with runes and teleporting seems like something you cant get in any other faction for just 5ss and difficult to handle from my resser point of view. 

[Bengt]

With regards to Joss there are some Kirai regulars that ignore armour, Datsue Ba, Ikiryo, Shikome (and well Onryo too, but they need a suit for it).

Nurses are extra fun against damage focused models without any Ml attacks (like Mages) as every suit is useful.

[mojopin]

16 minutes ago, Bengt said:

With regards to Joss there are some Kirai regulars that ignore armour, Datsue Ba, Ikiryo, Shikome (and well Onryo too, but they need a suit for it).

Nurses are extra fun against damage focused models without any Ml attacks (like Mages) as every suit is useful.

Hi Bengt, I didnt take Datsue this time (I love her), 6 wounds against a heavy CA crew seemed risky to me. He focused at first killing my pure spirits (like the emissary) so Ikiryo didnt appear right away, he did appear to kill one vanasuba granting damage and burning to 3 of my minis . Nurses are slow and ca is just range 8 (and a primary target to fyctor XD, also mages get  to WP ). But you are right I have to find how to get those pieces to work,

[Fictor]

I think the the bigger problem are that we play a lot together and we know all enemy tricks, like for me, kill nurses first, no hit nothing to will trigger Ikiryo, do that Ikirio appears far away of my best minis and things like that.

But in the other hand Mojopin know my tricks too!  

[godswearhats]

I think the Carrion Emissary is a liability in a Kirai crew because it cannot be protected by her Malevolence aura.

Kirai is a very difficult Master to learn against players of equal or greater skill, because she's very Unforgiving (pun!) and it's easy to overextend her crew and not have the resources needed to complement her.

As for @Fictor's comment about just declaring faction, that's pretty normal. McMourning is an excellent candidate to take into Arcanists because Poison ignores Armor, and many Arcanist models have that Ability. Sebastian protects from  attacks, another common trait among Arcanists. McMourning is also one of our more mobile Masters, which helps against the big, common models you see in Arcanist crews: e.g. Howard Langston, Mechanical Rider, etc. Finally, the majority of the attacks in the crew are against Df, and again those bigger staples tend to have Df 5 (vs Ca 7).

[spooky_squirrel]

The biggest liability I see with playing a poison (or burning, or other condition-reliant crew) into a list that's probably containing Oxfordian Mages is the Condition immunity that Blood Ward grants Henchmen with Warding Runes. If you go this route, pay attention to where the Oxfordian Mage with the Blood Ward is. If you kill it or get it out of 10" and LOS of the Henchman with the Warding Runes, then your poison (etc.) will be reliable again.

 

This is just an extra level of consideration above the usual looking for where condition removal is at. If you're going with control-oriented pieces like Anna, she can help separate that Mage out, disrupt the LOS, or kill it so that whichever Henchman are in your face tanking your stuff are no longer immune to a number of your tricks.

Of course, this liability is only in reference to the Henchmen in the crew. Sandeep does not have Condition immunity, and his host of Gamin and other tools (including the Oxfordian Mages) do not either.

[benjoewoo]

Proxy Reva. She has an April release, and it might be good for both your opponent and you to see how she plays before you purchase her and in case either of you play a tournament match with her.

Guises of Death, Litany of the Fallen, and Decaying aura melt damage reduction models, all with a built in trigger. Joss loses armor, so 3 AP in attacks plus the 0 for ping 1 kills Joss through H2K. It also gets by arcane shield, present on 4 models based on OP's original post. Add to that Reva can choose Df/Wp, for which Sandeeps' crew has limited defensive triggers (only the Nemesis Ward mage for both Df and Wp based on OP's post).

Your Nurse is your best friend if you only have one 13 and Joss doesn't have the blood ward mage within 10" and LoS. Every suit is useful against a Joss not already engaged with you--crow paralyzes, ram prevents Joss from copying any of Sandeep's actions, tome prevents joss from attacking effectively, and mask prevents Joss from attacking. Just be careful not to nurse Joss if he can get into LoS of the Blood Ward mage, as the warding runes upgrade will grant him immunity to the condition's effect after being applied.

If you know your friend is playing Sandeep, I can't recommend Reva enough. Sandeep can generally start the game with 7-8 models, summoning 2-3 more in, probably 2 barring a higher than average number of masks at 8+. Sandeep needs an 8 mask for all gamin other than poison, 9 mask for poison gamin, and 12 mask for Banasuva. Based on OP's original post, at least 4 of the models in Sandeep's crew have damage reduction built in, with 6 likely to have some form of reduction by the end of Turn 1 (summon metal gamin, summon banasuva who copies armor).

Also, Sandeep has a lot of TNs and suit requirements in his crew. As mentioned, the place has a non-built in mask suit on the TN. Sandeep needs a 5 mask, everyone else needs a 6 mask. There's a huge drain on mask cards in Sandeeps' hand, as only Sandeep, Joss, and any other SS user can stone for the required mask for the place. Additionally, the place requires middle value cards, with the summons consuming slightly higher middle or high value cards. Sandeep can also only student of all if someone copies a Ca action from him successfully with a tome and discarding a card. The point is Sandeep has a lot of hand stress, even factoring in Arcane Reservoir and limited SS use.

If Sandeep is using the anti-randomization aura, Sandeep is in the thick of things and unlikely has a bunch of high cards because his mages are playing on probability with plus flips and/or furious casting. Reva melts him with her high min damage 3, pumpable to 4 or just unable to reduce (Sandeep has arcane shield) against Sandeep's Df 5. Reva does this from just over 22" away, far and away from the actual fight, while Sandeep is within 6" of the engagement his crew is shooting into. 

Reva's Litany gets a lot of mileage against Sandeep as a result. Kirai's crew can ignore armor, but you're looking at a lot of units that do 1-2 damage on weak, and Sandeep's crew, like many arcanists, generally have average or above average defensive stat lines, e.g. Df 5 on Joss, Df 6 on Banasuva, Df 5 on Mages--this goes against your efficiency in doing better than weak. All those models will have effectively armor 2+, between printed armor, copying it, and temporary shielding/arcane shield. Bypass all of that with your built in crow trigger on Reva's attack, stoning/cheating a crow as needed against Warding Rune targets. 

Just my thoughts, as Reva loves going after high reduction models with min damage 3 and saying they can't stone for prevention. She can eat 2 mages in a Turn if you use 2 AP to hit a mage twice, 1 AP to hit another mage with a 0 ping for 5 (arcane shield plus temporary shielding reduce by 3)--the 0 is a great bait because you can stone for the tome, and if you flip equal cards, your opponent must cheat or face the possibility of you cheating to do no-damage flip damage. Even if you don't, assuming equal flips, you're looking at murdering one mage and priming the other to die to Reva next turn easily or to another model in your crew.

If you're only playing Kirai, adversary can do well, along with the armor ignoring tricks. It's just not as efficient because you'll generally need 1-2 models to accomplish what Reva can do on her own more efficiently. 

Alternatively, run the Kirai-Sebastian-Philip combo and go to town on Sandeep's crew after he's pretty much finished his activations.

[mojopin]

1 hour ago, benjoewoo said:

Alternatively, run the Kirai-Sebastian-Philip combo and go to town on Sandeep's crew after he's pretty much finished his activations.

Thanks!, Im not aware of the combo, how does it works?

[benjoewoo]

Kirai, sebastian, philip, datsue-ba, night terror, canine remains, fill rest to taste (generally a big beefy beater, preferably spirit, e.g. really i.e. Izamu with Decaying Aura). Kirai takes Unforgiving and the Swirly named upgrade. Datsue-ba gets the Spirit upgrades (Beacon and Whispers). Sebastian takes Those Are Not Ours! Philip takes Take Back the Night and Haunting Cries. If you run Izamu, put on Decaying Aura. That'll leave you 4SS to start. The crew has a deceptively low number of SS--Sebastian should regularly generate 1 SS a turn, mitigating your lower start. Drawing appropriate crows will increase your efficiency. Ultimately you'll just about break even on SS gained to what you'll spend as a summoner, but considering the relatively high activation control and safety of the activation order--provided you deploy out of reach or difficultly reached--it makes up for the relatively weak SS pool. Plus, Kirai's summons are slightly more durable with their access to multiple healing activations between enemy attacks.

1. Datsue-ba activates, summons seishin and throws up aura to give finish the job aura to all spirits within 6, poops out a scheme marker. It's not actually a finish the job aura, but may as well be. 

2. Canine remains activates, spends 2 AP digging for a bone--cheat it in if you have the 8-10 crow. 

3. Sebastian 0 sacrifices the canine remains to get you a stone and card. summons a new canine remains from the corpse. If you got the corpse from 2, summon a second canine remains if possible or else poop another scheme marker. If your opponent is running ranged attack icon models that are likely to go in on you Turn 1, throw up the anti-ranged attack icon aura. The aura is huge and stacks cover, which will mitigate most of Sandeep's shooting even assuming he summons the plus flip to attack gamin (it's an upgrade, but the gamin itself can't attack, so it's really the plus flip gamin that occasionally interacts and/or moves).

4. Summoned canine remains activates, passes effectively. Maybe move it.

5. 2nd Summoned Canine Remains activates if you have it. This is fairly unlikely unless your hand is unusually strong. Generally Philip at this point activates, eats 2 scheme markers for 2 cards, discarding 1 each, netting you 3 cards drawn so far. Depending on your success in getting the corpse from 2 and/or summoning the second canine remains, you can use philip's 0 to convert the second corpse marker to a scheme marker for a 5.

6. Philip activates and does 5, or you probably activate your night terror and move it up in preparation for Kirai's activation. Alternatively, have your seishin activate and move/pass.

7. Do 6 excluding the Philip option, or do whichever option you didn't choose from 6 (again, excluding Philip option).

8. Kirai activates, snapping the seishin back to her with Enslaved Soul. 0 a seishin, Give a swirlie to your fill to taste spirit and swap with the night terror (this is why I recommend Izamu, who preferably has Decaying Aura). Summon a drowned off the Night Terror (should be as far up as 2" allows from Kirai post Swirly while still within Datsue-ba's 6" aura). Summon a hanged off the night terror. Night Terror dies, dropping a scheme marker.

9. Provided your opponent still has activations that could threaten hanged or Izamu/your other models that haven't activated, activate the seishin Kirai summoned, pass, move, etc..

10. Activate the drowned and move it or have it shoot if there are still models that could threaten your hanged and other hired models.

11.+ Go to town on your opponent. Hopefully an enemy model has moved up by this point, hopefully within charge range of Izamu and/or Whisper's from your hanged. Since you mentioned Sandeep--Sandeep generally starts with 7-8 activations, summoning at max 3 more. Joss likely has two ugprades, and Oxfordian Mages will cost 15, so Sandeep has at least 29 SS locked up between Sandeep's Gamin/Unaligned Sage upgrades (you mentioned the non-randomizing aura), Joss +2 SS in upgrades, and 15 SS in Oxfordian mages. With 21 SS left, he can only hire so much if he wants to maintain a larger than cache pool for summoning and/or initiative and card cycling. Assuming even 9 models, Sandeep can only get to 12 models unless he's running Kudra and pulls some weird gamin sacrifice into re-summon trick--unlikely given how card and stone intensive this can be. With 10+ activations before Izamu goes, you should be able to have him do his stuff for your mentioned typical Turn 1 fight. 

YMMV. Ikiryo may pop out at some point(s), increasing your activation count and delaying your non-Ikiryo engagements. With that in mind, try to deploy so that your crew, particularly Kirai, Sebastian, Philip, and Datsue-ba are unlikely to be pressured early. Kirai should be deployed in LoS if you think summoning Ikiryo will be more beneficial than not having Kirai be attacked. Everyone in the starting crew can trigger Malevolence, and with the recent FAQ, Kirai needs LoS to the model she summons Ikiryo to. However, the rest of the crew pretty much does not need LoS anywhere except to each other. They'll move up eventually, but Turn 1 is your set up time and they want workplace safety and security.

Come Turn 2, you can almost repeat the above identically by losing your canine remains in place of the night terror--you'll just have to reverse sebastian's sacrifice summon into summon sacrifice most likely and plan for any swirlies you want to do as Canine Remains is not a spirit model. You can have Sebastian poop a scheme marker if you didn't get two extra by the end of Turn 1, so Philip can activate relatively early and eat them for earlier cards. Sebastian will pretty much be getting you a SS and card each turn, summoning when convenient, and throwing up his anti-ranged icon aura. 

Your decision making Turn 2 will be based on whether you need to fight first and then recover your hand, or if you have time to build your hand and then fight. Hopefully after 9 activations before having Izamu and hanged do their thing, they engaged relatively safely and did some stuff with minimal risk. 

Turn 2 initiative is pretty important if you engaged Turn 1. If you didn't engage Turn 1, you can basically repeat Turn 1 on Turn 2 and starting activation 9 you'll have 5 or so models that can do stuff. You'll know by Kirai's Turn 1 activation whether you'll be swirling into combat or setting up for a Turn 2 set up into fight activation order. The night terror gives you the option to attack--you can always just swirl a seishin out there for later, assuming you don't need to sacrifice both seishin to get summons and/or you feel Kirai won't experience any pressure she needs to punt to seishin.

Don't be afraid to sacrifice your own models after they've done their job--no model is too important to sacrifice getting VP if that VP will get you a win or tie. Everyone can contribute to fighting and should if it'll get you the advantage you need to get more VP. Datsue-ba has summoning potential if she finishes things off, and Philip can move towards the battle if you want to capitalize on Take Back the Night--in this crew, the only person who can't trigger that aura is Sebastian. Sebastian is the least likely fighter in your crew, as he'll do more via summoning and/or getting you cards/SS, but even he has a pulse that can do damage, and if you at some point put poison on people, catalyst can matter. 

Kirai is also not just a summoner--Turn 1 she is for set up, and possibly Turn 2 depending on what happens, but in later turns she's catapulting your people as reinforcements/saving your people and she has a very nice gun hidden somewhere in that kimono. With her upgrades, you have a built in trigger for min 3 damage that doesn't randomize, and you can heal your own people.

I only mentioned summoning drowned and hanged, because Kirai's summoning mechanic allows you to summon both of them, drowned first, off a night terror. Later, or depending on your hand Turn 1, don't be afraid to summon a Shikome or something else Turn 1 or later. Summon what you need, not just the best of what you can afford--drowned and hanged are just generally decent because drowned can tie people up and finish the job is a lot more useful in GG 2017 now that Dig Their Graves is a suited scheme. Between Kirai sacrificing seishin and the card draw engine, you should regularly be able to summon drowned/shikome, given you'll only need 8s and 10s for them. 

With the new upgrades, there may be some better options, but I haven't really looked into it much, so I just put Haunting Cries on Philip because it's a 0 upgrade. I see that as the swappable upgrade, but losing that 4th starting stone is pretty heavy considering you're playing on probability to have the efficiency to run on your starting pool for a 5 Turn game.

I'm new to the combo and that's how I'd play it. It may not be optimized for your situation or optimized overall, but I've found it competes nicely even with the activation control of non-Som'er summoning crews--I haven't tested against Som'er so I don't know if I could compete without going to a Turn 2 set up, but at least against Asami I had near total activation control and engaged on my terms for the most part. 

As I should always say, check to make sure the stuff I tell you is legal to play. I am pretty sure all I've said is legal, provided you get the right cards and such, but I didn't give too much detail as I figure you'll know a lot of this stuff already and/or will read it.

[EnternalVoid]

4 hours ago, benjoewoo said:

3. Sebastian 0 sacrifices the canine remains to get you a stone and card. summons a new canine remains from the corpse. If you got the corpse from 2, summon a second canine remains if possible or else poop another scheme marker. If your opponent is running ranged attack icon models that are likely to go in on you Turn 1, throw up the anti-ranged attack icon aura. The aura is huge and stacks cover, which will mitigate most of Sandeep's shooting even assuming he summons the plus flip to attack gamin (it's an upgrade, but the gamin itself can't attack, so it's really the plus flip gamin that occasionally interacts and/or moves).

A pretty interesting engine but I did notice one mistake that is important.  When Sebastian sacrifices an undead model the (0) action you don't get a corpse marker.  Per the rules sacrificed models do not drop markers per page 51 in the rule book under Sacrifice.  So unless the first canine remains digs up a bone you will not have a corpse marker to summon off of.

While this break down is interesting I have to question the vulnerability to bad luck if only due to the number of Crows you need in hand to make it work with the fact you only get back Canine remains if you dig a bone or another model is kind enough to give you a corpse.  Kirai needs crows for her summon, Sebastian needs crows to summon canine remains, and canine remains need crows to dig up corpses.  Under Cover also takes a crow, mind you a low crow, to get off.  You also need in addition to these crows a 8+ for Datsue Ba to summon a Seshin, a 6+ for Kirai to summon a Seshin, and a 7+ for Swirling Spirit, you might get some of these on the flip but as you are relying on some of it to go off you are gambling if it is not in hand.  Sure if you sac a dog and two markers you get 3 extra cards but that is still 9 out of 54, a decent number are going to be 6 or less.  But it is still going to be a hard sell.  A Hanged is a 13+ and a drowned is a 10+.  You can knock this down by 2 if you sac a spirit for the bonus for Kirai but that is likely costing you Seshin.  Worth it if you can get them out but still costly.  This approach just really strikes me as a gamble.

[Bengt]

Having the Dog spend a 8 and Sebastian a stone to draw one card and one stone doesn't seem at all useful to me. 8 isn't a bad card in your typical resser crew and the chances of getting a better one is pretty slim. Sure you can gain a stone for a 6if you have it in hand, but even that deal gets pretty questionable if you don't have exactly a 6to summon with and use a higher card.

I can see having a Necropunk skipping around Philip placing scheme markers, the only card you need is any 7 for Leap so you get good cycling and net 1 or 2 cards. Philip is also effective to push/lure and the punk can advance a bit while doing his leaping so you don't need to leave them that far behind for later game.

[mojopin]

besides, Izamu in other crews seems not very reliable to me, with Kirai it gains some mobility points but in this particular case df4 and 9 wounds can easily go away in just one furious casting ignoring armor or one furious joss ignoring everything. In my opinion those are the 10 most fragile ss (plus upgrades) ever. Sebastians undercover might work well (I like him so much but i dont think I would ever include it in a Kirai crew not knowing im facing Sandeep so it doesnt looks like an honest inclussion to me ) . Hopefully this afternoon  I`ll get another try.

[benjoewoo]

Izamu isn't the most resilient model in Malifaux, but for Resser choices, he works well with Kirai because he's a legal swirl target. Armor 2 is generically good--mages can ignore it, but hopefully you've killed 1-2 of them before they all get to furious cast at him. Also, it'll require some hand stress on Sandeep to maximize non-randomization with as many mages as possible if you controlled activations Turn 1.  

Joss likewise ignores Armor. It's Sandeep's strength to have 4 models that ignore armor and one that does good damage while ignoring some of the most common defensive abilities. You get around it by controlling activations to mitigate their ability to do what they want and getting a more effective first contact. Also keep in mind these models all have Df 5--they're not too difficult to hit, and probability favors the Ml 6 over the Df 5. Additionally Izamu gets a positive twist to damage by default, so you should see at least a chance or two to cheat severe damage. Izamu's tome trigger, useless for the most part in the crew other than Datsue-ba and conditionally Kirai, also allows you to cheat bad weak cards if you flip weak cards anyway and cycle for potentially better cards at no tempo loss.

I did make a mistake in the combo--I've only the run the combo once in real life, so I was a big fat cheater in that game. Cheat the appropriate card for the corpse and it works mostly the same, just take out the Philip option to convert and Sebastian summoning two canine remains. This lowers the activation delay until 10.+ I think. However, if you just don't have the crow in hand for the dog, drop a scheme marker. Sebastian can still drop a marker on his turn and throw up the aura or move. By this point, Philip will have 3 scheme markers Turn 1, meaning Sebastian can drop another come Turn 2 as needed for a full two Turn cycle set of activations by Philip.

Eventually, something in your crew, and other than the night terror, which you kind of plan to kill Turn 1 anyway, can drop a corpse marker on being killed--Izamu will conditionally drop one depending on how he is killed. Sebastian can summon them on a 6 crow. 

I agree the combo seems vulnerable to bad hands and/or hands devoid of crows. However, a bad hand lowers the number of activations you can delay actually interacting with your opponent--you don't cripple yourself to maximize the delay. You can optionally just deploy so that datsue-ba, canine remains, and sebastian drop scheme markers for Philip. The loss of the second canine remains activation lowers our delay by 1 activation. The lack of sacrificing the canine remains means you lose 1 card drawn and the 1 SS that you would likely simply cycle for Sebastian's own summoning. These options are available for later, and if you don't have most of the initial crew moving up, it'll be difficult to get a great deal of serious engagement Turn 2 from the opponent. 

For relatively minimal delaying, Datsue-ba needs an 8 of any suit for a Seishin. Kirai needs a 6, 10, and 13 for seishin, drowned, and hanged respectively without any seishin sacrifices. Swirling Spirits requires a 7 of any suit. The rest is all optional, making it less of a Rube Goldberg machine than my initial presentation may have made it seem. Any average to slightly above average crow card allows more of the combo to work without considering probability (BJ factor excluded), and even if you decide not do maximize activations for Turn 2, sacrificing the Canine Remains only requires a 5 for a stone and card--if you do it once, you get an extra card, SS, and scheme marker for 4 SS, really 3 SS. Kirai can also use the canine remains as a summoning post, allowing Sebastian to summon at his leisure or Philip to convert for a scheme marker. 

Every crew loses if you have terrible hands. No one can really do much if they can't make any TNs to make their crew work. Joss with Fast doesn't have great chances if he's charging and getting an extra hit on a Canine Remains if he can only cheat with 1-4 value cards and the dog flips 8s to Joss' 6s. If you get terrible hands, you suffer for it, that's why card cycling exists. It'll potentially lower your actviation delay by up to 5, so instead of waiting until activation 10+, you have to start considering interaction after activation 5 or so.

Considering the relatively low TNs to get 2 extra activations, it seems worth the crew composition opportunity cost to have generally better activation control. Also most of the card cycling is undeniable, i.e. Philip. If you don't get the cards to summon even Kirai's seishin, wait till Turn 2, because you're about to discard 7+ truly terrible cards and draw 6 hopefully not bad stuff Turn 2--which you can again undeniably cycle for the most part. Seven starting activations with no additional activations is still a respectable number--you have your bad Turn that everyone has when they get a hand that's "quality with a K."

At the end of the day, I'm not recommending this combo as a panacea to all things Sandeep. I personally think Sandeep is one of the stronger masters in the field, and you're looking at a bad deal for most Resser masters because he gets around some of the most common defenses Ressers have with fairly little gameplay variation. But, I see this initially rag tag composition as having better chances than traditional summoning battery Kirai for better activation control, hand control, and the relatively easier gameplay since most of the descried Turn 1 involves 0 information from your opponent.

[spooky_squirrel]

On 1/28/2017 at 11:51 AM, benjoewoo said:

Izamu isn't the most resilient model in Malifaux, but for Resser choices, he works well with Kirai because he's a legal swirl target. Armor 2 is generically good--mages can ignore it, but hopefully you've killed 1-2 of them before they all get to furious cast at him. Also, it'll require some hand stress on Sandeep to maximize non-randomization with as many mages as possible if you controlled activations Turn 1. 

 

Some traps to avoid (from someone who's been experimenting with Sandeep in various ways):
1. Izamu can be tied down each turn with a summoned Gamin preventing charges. I've done this with Wind Gamin, so they don't even count as kills (they bury instead).
2. Mages can ignore armor and even if you do engage them to try and slow things down, one can borrow Sandeep's (0) to place out of combat, and an expendable Gamin can borrow Sandeep's lure to pull the other non- out, leaving you engaged with a mage that can not only furious cast at you, but try for outright killing you with the assassinate trigger on its (0).
3. Mages don't need to worry about randomizing when shooting into combat near Sandeep if the Sandeep player is using the (1) off of Unaligned Sage. This can even be fired off out of sequence using the Beacon ability. I've used this with Banasuva tying up a bunch of models and the Mages shooting into that combat for reasons.
4. I can ignore armor in other ways as well, especially playing with Gamin.
5. I don't need to kill if I can control the board.

 

However, all that being said:
1. Don't waste AP killing Gamin. My immune to slow Gamin cannot cheat and loses most benefits of being immune to slow the turn after it is summoned. I want my opponent to kill it as fast as possible so that I can cycle a new one onto the table later. I cannot recycle Oxfordian Mages. Mages are also squishy and need to cluster a bit more to get the most bang for their buck.
2. Be mindful of the reach of Sandeep. A canny Sandeep player can have him halfway up the board before he's activated in Turn 1, with a Gamin already summoned (or another 1AP effect fired), place him as a (0) another 6" up, then drop a couple summoned Gamin 6" further beyond that.
3. If you bunch up, the better Sandeep players in my meta will drop a cannot be pushed/moved Banasuva (50mm base, 3" melee range) in the middle of your cluster. Banasuva will then copy something like the Poison Gamin's Deadly Reflex ability. If he dies, everything within 2 takes 1 point from Flaming Demise, 1 point from Deadly Reflex, gets burning + 1, and Poisoned +1. If you don't kill him, a nearly 8" diameter circle on the table is tied up with him.
4. Look at the strategy and schemes, then look at what your opponent hired. If you see Angelica and a Malifaux Raptor in the list, they're planning on dropping schemes somewhere deep. If they've got Miranda and the Emissary, they're going to bully you for board position.
5. If you can bury something vital to the control game, do it. Banasuva is Wp 4, so Anna could lock him off the table until the next thing dies. The upside is now everything tied up by Banasuva is free to act and they don't have to worry about the side effects of his dying. The downside is that you still have to deal with every other attack vector Sandeep has, including himself.
6. Go after Sandeep's hand and soulstones. In my meta, he's typically activating late in the summoning turn in order to influence the board the most with his summons, but if he does not have the cards/stones to summon what he needs, he's not able to maximize his turn. I've had Sandeep turns where he's twiddled his thumbs because my hand was not what I needed and I couldn't risk top-decking for what would give him an edge. Once things are on the table, he may activate early to bully position and support later activations (i.e. make it so that Academics don't randomize when shooting into combats near Sandeep).

[jolly_green314]

Has anyone gotten a chance to test any of this stuff out against Sandeep? I would be interested to hear what has and hasn't been working, as I expect to be seeing more of him here soon.