CROOLIGANS - THE MIST AND LOS

[lille354]

Hi,

I am trying to confirm how The Mist works for models not actually within the aura.  The card says that the area 4" round the crooligan is considered Ht3 soft cover.  I assume the Ht3 was added because otherwise as a Ht1 model pretty much everyone (except gremlins) would be able to see over it.  Obviously any models within 4" of the crooligan would get the negative flip bonus from soft cover as they are inside the aura.  

However, would a model 5" behind him get the bonus as it is within 1" of soft cover?  A model 6" from him, so 2" from the aura, would not get the bonus as it says nothing about the terrain being obscuring, and you can see through mist?  Here on the south coast of England we are acutely aware of the difference between mist and fog btw  

Assuming in all cases the shooter has at least 1 LOS that passes through the aura.

The LOS rules could do with a bit of a tweak?

[verpixelt]

Quote

 the area within 4 of this model is considered Ht 3 soft cover 

The Mist doesn't create terrain granting the soft cover, only the area around him is consider soft cover. Therefore the model 5" behind the Crooligan doesn't get any bonus from it (also the wording "within" ...).

[lille354]

8 minutes ago, verpixelt said:

The Mist doesn't create terrain granting the soft cover, only the area around him is consider soft cover. Therefore the model 5" behind the Crooligan doesn't get any bonus from it.

Hi thanks, I am still not clear about that? If it is considered to be soft cover, and in the rules for cover you only have to be an inch from soft cover why would the model within an inch of it not get the benefit? Or does a model have to be actually within it to qualify, which would explain why there is a Ht3 effect on a Ht1 model.

Am very new to this so I may be over thinking it, but if something is considered to be something would the rules for whatever it is considered to be not apply?

[verpixelt]

Quote

when any LoS line between the Attacking model and the target model can be drawn through any terrain with the soft or hard cover traits that is within 1" of the target model. 

LoS drawn through terrain with the soft cover traits. The Crooligan doesn't create terrain with its cast The Mist.

[lille354]

OK - think I am getting this now.  Anything up to HT3 that is actually within the 4" aura of a crooligan would get the negative bonus when being shot at, anything outside of it doesn't?

Thats still pretty good if you have 2 of them working in tandem I suppose.

[verpixelt]

Yup, that! As you stated earlier, without the specified Ht3 it would only be Ht1 bc auras have the same height as the model from which it radiates and this wouldn't benefit a lot of models in Resser.

[lille354]

Thank you.  Getting used to the wording in the game, sometimes its too easy to read in something that isn't actually there.

That will help me against Guild for sure.

[Bengt]

The Ht has no effect what so ever on cover, LoS line are always drawn top down and if they pass through/over the Soft/Hard Cover (and the target is within 1") then that is it. Even Vantage points only ignore intervening terrain for blocking purposes, not cover.

I also object to the notion that you can have soft/hard cover without terrain, though is not spelled out in the rules. What we do have is that you only get  for terrain with cover traits (p 41), the rule book never considers the possibility of cover by itself. And secondly we have the FAQ for markers:

Quote

68) Do models with Flying and Incorporeal treat Markers with terrain traits as if they were actual terrain?
Yes, as do all other models.

From this I draw the conclusion that the area around the Crooligan is actual terrain.

[verpixelt]

12 minutes ago, Bengt said:

The Ht has no effect what so ever on cover, LoS line are always drawn top down and if they pass through/over the Soft/Hard Cover (and the target is within 1") then that is it. Even Vantage points only ignore intervening terrain for blocking purposes, not cover.

I also object to the notion that you can have soft/hard cover without terrain, though is not spelled out in the rules. What we do have is that you only get  for terrain with cover traits (p 41), the rule book never considers the possibility of cover by itself. And secondly we have the FAQ for markers:

From this I draw the conclusion that the area around the Crooligan is actual terrain.

The FAQ talks about Markers with terrain aka. Lilith forest, Waldgeists trees, etc. how do you drawn a conclusion from that? 

And it is spelled out in the rule book as follows:

Quote

A model will gain the benefits of cover from a Projectile Attack when any LoS line between the Attacking model and the target model can be drawn through any terrain with the soft or hard cover traits that is within 1" of the target model. 

Also the Crooligan's cast:

Quote

Until the start of this model's next Activation, the area within 4 of this model is considered Ht 3 soft cover. 

 

[Bengt]

40 minutes ago, verpixelt said:

The FAQ talks about Markers with terrain aka. Lilith forest, Waldgeists trees, etc. how do you drawn a conclusion from that? 

And it is spelled out in the rule book as follows:

Also the Crooligan's cast:

 

The FAQ shows intent.

But more importantly the same section that you refer to for the 1" rule also say that you get  from terrain with cover traits. So if the area around the Crooligan isn't terrain it doesn't do anything.

43 minutes ago, verpixelt said:

Until the start of this model's next Activation, the area within 4 of this model is considered Ht 3 soft cover.

Well I would put the emphasis on "area". The Mist has an effect on the area.

[lille354]

What is confusing me, and I am new to the game so might be misunderstanding things, is that cover is only mentioned in the rules in relation to terrain.  I can't find anywhere where you get cover without terrain.  

That said, it would be an awesome action from a 4SS modelto protect against shooting and it does need an 8 to get off successfully?

[verpixelt]

32 minutes ago, Bengt said:

The FAQ shows intent.

But more importantly the same section that you refer to for the 1" rule also say that you get  from terrain with cover traits. So if the area around the Crooligan isn't terrain it doesn't do anything.

Well I would put the emphasis on "area". The Mist has an effect on the area.

Specific rules printed on model / upgrade cards > general rules. C'mon that's nothing new. You don't really wanna argue about that now, want you?

No matter where you put the emphasis, the word "within" will still be in there. All Actions that create terrain which then grants cover etc. do have specific wording for it on the cards. This one does not. 
I get the visual, there's a cloud of mist and even a person standing closely behind it should get cover from it. But often enough going the way of imagining how this would make sense did not reflect the rule intention.

[Bengt]

1 hour ago, verpixelt said:

Specific rules printed on model / upgrade cards > general rules. C'mon that's nothing new. You don't really wanna argue about that now, want you?

No matter where you put the emphasis, the word "within" will still be in there. All Actions that create terrain which then grants cover etc. do have specific wording for it on the cards. This one does not. 
I get the visual, there's a cloud of mist and even a person standing closely behind it should get cover from it. But often enough going the way of imagining how this would make sense did not reflect the rule intention.

For a card-rule to overrule a rulebook-rule it will have to do so explicitly. This does not.

"Within" is for some reason pretty much always present in  effects, even though it's part of the  rules themselves so I don't see why you are obsessing about it. The important thing is that s that that directly affect models say some variation of "models within ", The mist say "area within ", yet you insist that it has a direct effect on models.

You are the first person to bring up any kind of fluff argument, so don't try to pin that nonsense on me. I'm only applying the rules for cover as they are written in the rulebook.

[verpixelt]

Geeez Luise, ok! My intension wasn't pinning anything on anyone. I get where you're coming from but this then would only make sense if you count "area" as terrain, doesn't it? @Bengt

[Dogmantra]

If you choose to not count the area as terrain (at least for the purposes of granting soft cover) it will do nothing because the cover rules as written technically only apply to terrain with those cover traits. Now I'm a stickler for not assuming intent, but let's be fair and say that Wyrd managed to print an action that isn't literally useless in every situation possible. So I think in this case it is safe to assume that the action will do something and therefore that it grants cover.

As Bengt points out, the effect does not specify that models within the area gain the benefits of soft cover, just that the area counts as soft cover. I don't see a way you could read this as somehow not obeying the specific 1" rule for cover.

[lille354]

Well at least I don't feel dumb for raising this now!  The problem is really with the woolly description for terrain/cover in the rules?  

In this instance the card clearly does not say it creates an area of terrain with the soft cover trait within the aura, just that the area within the aura provides soft cover.  The description in the rules for cover only refer to it in relation to terrain.  So being pedantically literal if the area is not terrain it cannot provide soft cover, but we agree that it does not say it is terrain! If the Ht was not relevant then why bother to include it?

A figure up to HT3 within the 4" aura clearly gets the soft cover protection, and one of the traits of soft cover is that any figure within 1" of it gets the same negative bonus.  This could be interpreted that a figure 1" from the aura does get the bonus as it is a defining part of soft cover, but it only applies to LOS drawn through terrain - which is not explicitly a given.  Of course this leads to the daft position of a figure further away than that being shot through the same aura and not getting the defence bonus, because it is more than 1" away?

I think agreement with opponent is required?

[verpixelt]

Quote

In this instance the card clearly does not say it creates an area of terrain with the soft cover trait within the aura, just that the area within the aura provides soft cover.  The description in the rules for cover only refer to it in relation to terrain.  So being pedantically literal if the area is not terrain it cannot provide soft cover, but we agree that it does not say it is terrain! If the Ht was not relevant then why bother to include it?

That's the angle I was looking at it (eventually poorly explained, if so I'm sorry). So with the assumption that Wyrd doesn't print meaningless rules where do we end up?

[verpixelt]

12 minutes ago, Dogmantra said:

If you choose to not count the area as terrain (at least for the purposes of granting soft cover) it will do nothing because the cover rules as written technically only apply to terrain with those cover traits. Now I'm a stickler for not assuming intent, but let's be fair and say that Wyrd managed to print an action that isn't literally useless in every situation possible. So I think in this case it is safe to assume that the action will do something and therefore that it grants cover.

As Bengt points out, the effect does not specify that models within the area gain the benefits of soft cover, just that the area counts as soft cover. I don't see a way you could read this as somehow not obeying the specific 1" rule for cover.

But don't you just add an "area" being terrain so it makes sense for granting cover to 1" apart models? Same goes the other way around with me leaving out that it doesn't specifically say models in this area. What I want to say is we've dissected this as far as possible and probably just found something which should be clarified.

[Clement]

28 minutes ago, lille354 said:

Well at least I don't feel dumb for raising this now!  The problem is really with the woolly description for terrain/cover in the rules?  

In this instance the card clearly does not say it creates an area of terrain with the soft cover trait within the aura, just that the area within the aura provides soft cover.  The description in the rules for cover only refer to it in relation to terrain.  So being pedantically literal if the area is not terrain it cannot provide soft cover, but we agree that it does not say it is terrain! If the Ht was not relevant then why bother to include it?

A figure up to HT3 within the 4" aura clearly gets the soft cover protection, and one of the traits of soft cover is that any figure within 1" of it gets the same negative bonus.  This could be interpreted that a figure 1" from the aura does get the bonus as it is a defining part of soft cover, but it only applies to LOS drawn through terrain - which is not explicitly a given.  Of course this leads to the daft position of a figure further away than that being shot through the same aura and not getting the defence bonus, because it is more than 1" away?

I think agreement with opponent is required?

The figure further than 1" away not getting cover is a big part of even the "traditional" explicitly-terrain based cover rules.  Not standing within 1" of the cover granting terrain means you don't get it.

As to the Ht characteristic; It was originally included I think because of the possibility of the Ht of other pieces of terrain making the bubble of fog around the crooligan not relevant.  Picture two models on Ht 10 towers 10 inches apart shooting at each other with the Crooligan standing in the middle.  The Vantage point rules are kind of muddy though (PLEASE LET'S NOT GET INTO THEM HERE).

[Clement]

edit:  double post.   Odd.

Edited January 20, 2017 by Clement
double trouble

[verpixelt]

So apparently this issue got raised before by @solkan without any final satisfying result =/

 

[Bengt]

1 hour ago, verpixelt said:

Geeez Luise, ok! My intension wasn't pinning anything on anyone. I get where you're coming from but this then would only make sense if you count "area" as terrain, doesn't it? @Bengt

Yes, by my reasoning the area end up counting as terrain. This is because the  effects an area, not models. If the action read something like "...models within 4 count as being in soft cover terrain." it would directly apply the effect to the model and the 1" rule would not be relevant.

[spooky_squirrel]

1 hour ago, lille354 said:

Well at least I don't feel dumb for raising this now!  The problem is really with the woolly description for terrain/cover in the rules?  

In this instance the card clearly does not say it creates an area of terrain with the soft cover trait within the aura, just that the area within the aura provides soft cover.  The description in the rules for cover only refer to it in relation to terrain.  So being pedantically literal if the area is not terrain it cannot provide soft cover, but we agree that it does not say it is terrain! If the Ht was not relevant then why bother to include it?

A figure up to HT3 within the 4" aura clearly gets the soft cover protection, and one of the traits of soft cover is that any figure within 1" of it gets the same negative bonus.  This could be interpreted that a figure 1" from the aura does get the bonus as it is a defining part of soft cover, but it only applies to LOS drawn through terrain - which is not explicitly a given.  Of course this leads to the daft position of a figure further away than that being shot through the same aura and not getting the defence bonus, because it is more than 1" away?

I think agreement with opponent is required?

Height becomes relevant when it comes to LOS and nearby elevated terrain; a model standing on a Ht 2 platform nearby will benefit, but not the one on the Ht 3 platform. It doesn't care if the model in it is Ht 1 or Ht 5, it will get Soft Cover if it's in the affected cylinder.

When it comes to the question of whether or not that area is terrain with the trait Soft Cover, in the absence of a clear decision your last question (quoted) is the immediate solution. If you have a henchman available (real life person that helps out with these things), you can ask them to provide a ruling for organized play. In my meta the players are more than happy to go over stuff like that, even in competitive games. All that being said, I tend to agree with Bengt here:

17 minutes ago, Bengt said:

Yes, by my reasoning the area end up counting as terrain. This is because the  effects an area, not models. If the action read something like "...models within 4 count as being in soft cover terrain." it would directly apply the effect to the model and the 1" rule would not be relevant.

If there's doubt during a game that's disrupting the game, find a way to resolve it that's quick and unbiased and complete the game playing that way (rolling die or flipping a coin is used in other systems), then take some time afterwards to talk with your opponent about the ways it can be read and whether or not they make sense.

[Dogmantra]

3 hours ago, spooky_squirrel said:

Height becomes relevant when it comes to LOS and nearby elevated terrain; a model standing on a Ht 2 platform nearby will benefit, but not the one on the Ht 3 platform. It doesn't care if the model in it is Ht 1 or Ht 5, it will get Soft Cover if it's in the affected cylinder.

This is incorrect. When not using Vantage Point rules, you will gain cover regardless of whether you are elevated above the aura's height or not because it only checks if a LoS line passes through the area (area is a 2d word, and LoS is always measured top down). When using vantage point rules, you draw LoS lines diagonally and they may or may not cross through the terrain.

[spooky_squirrel]

21 minutes ago, Dogmantra said:

This is incorrect. When not using Vantage Point rules, you will gain cover regardless of whether you are elevated above the aura's height or not because it only checks if a LoS line passes through the area (area is a 2d word, and LoS is always measured top down). When using vantage point rules, you draw LoS lines diagonally and they may or may not cross through the terrain.

...and that leads us into @Clement's remark about not starting the Vantage point thing up here.

 

Terrain's a tricky thing to get right and keep streamlined. Thank you for pointing that bit out.