Obey who gets the kill

[Voodoo Specter]

I tried searching but seeing as obey has so many questions about it I couldn't find an answer.

With the rise in frequency of Frame for Murder and numb to the world stopping me from condition killing/paralising/obeying out of position an enemy "sucker" I wanted to confirm that obeying an enenmy to kill one of it's own crew is a viable way of denying frame for murder and by the same note a way of scoring it if you obey the enemy to kill your "sucker"

Thanks for your help

[Dogmantra]

Obey does not change the friendly/enemy status of any models.

Some models (basically those with Terrifying) such as Hungering Darkness and Madame Sybelle have their own version that makes the target consider Hungering Darkness/Sybelle friendly, but that only changes the way they view that particular model, not the entire crew.

[Adran]

Frame for murder

When you choose this Scheme, note one of this Crew’s non-Peon models as the “sucker.” If the chosen “sucker” model is killed or sacrificed by an enemy model, score 1 VP. If the enemy model was a Master or Henchman, score 1 additional VP. If this Scheme was accomplished on or before Turn 3, score 1 additional VP

If you obey a model that is friendly to the sucker to kill the sucker the kill was not made by an enemy model. If you are playign reckoning, then the modle would count to wards the 2 required, as per the FAQ. 

Reckoning

At the end of every Turn, after the first, a Crew earns 1 VP if it killed or sacrificed two or more enemy models during that Turn.

 

And just a note, Obey doesn't actually change the friendly/enemy nature at all. There are a couple of obey like abilities that do (see Sybelle and Hungering darkness), but Obey itself doesn't.

[Kogan Style]

I think Question 3 of the FAQ might cover this:

3) If a model is killed by an Ability or Action, which Crew counts as having made the kill?

When a model is killed as the result of an Action, the Crew controlling the Action counts as having made the kill. If a model is killed by an Ability, the model with the Ability counts as having made the kill.
 

I think this means that if you obey their model to kill the sucker, you still count as killing the sucker as you are controlling the action of the obeyed model. 

 

[solkan]

30 minutes ago, Voodoo Specter said:

As far as I'm aware you are only friendly to the model that cast obey not its whole crew

 

39 minutes ago, feagaur said:

Obeyed models are considered friendly to the obeying models crew so the second question would be a no. The model obeyed would be friendly to your own model so wouldn't score frame for murder.

As to the other one, it says that the obeyed model is considered friendly to your crew but I believe its still part of the opponents crew (at least for dropping scheme markers anyway) so might count for denying Frame

As far as I can tell, you're both at least partially getting Obey confused with other similar actions which have additional clauses.

From the rulebook, the Friendly and Enemy callout on page 31 (next to the Simple Duel Example):

Quote

When a model's Actions are controlled by the opponent (for instance with the Obey Action) the model does not change which models are considered friendly, it's friends are still it's friends.

Models like Hungering Darkness don't have the Obey action, and instead have an action with words like this

Quote

The target considers this model friendly for the duration of the Action.

That's a quote from Hungering Darkness's Heed My Voice action, partially to avoid a silly "I spend 1AP and now your model is paralyzed next to Hungering Darkness" chain of events.

But Heed My Voice and the other actions which have the similar clause don't change anything else, beyond making the two models friendly to each other; their crew friendships are still the same.

 

 

[Voodoo Specter]

11 hours ago, Adran said:

If you obey a model that is friendly to the sucker to kill the sucker the kill was not made by an enemy model. If you are playign reckoning, then the modle would count to wards the 2 required, as per the FAQ. 

So it counts as my crew making the kill, but its still an enemy model which is the important part in the wording in Frame for murder.

So the kill is still made by an enemy model which is good for frame for murder but also made by my crew which is good for reckoning?

Or have I got that backwards 

[Ludvig]

2 hours ago, Voodoo Specter said:

So it counts as my crew making the kill, but its still an enemy model which is the important part in the wording in Frame for murder.

So the kill is still made by an enemy model which is good for frame for murder but also made by my crew which is good for reckoning?

Or have I got that backwards 

Seems about right. Obey is a good ability (as it should be).

[Myyrä]

2 hours ago, Voodoo Specter said:

So it counts as my crew making the kill, but its still an enemy model which is the important part in the wording in Frame for murder.

So the kill is still made by an enemy model which is good for frame for murder but also made by my crew which is good for reckoning?

Or have I got that backwards 

You got that correct.

[Voodoo Specter]

6 minutes ago, feagaur said:

Obeyed models are considered friendly to the obeying models crew so the second question would be a no. The model obeyed would be friendly to your own model so wouldn't score frame for murder.

As far as I'm aware you are only friendly to the model that cast obey not its whole crew

[feagaur]

Obeyed models are considered friendly to the obeying models crew so the second question would be a no. The model obeyed would be friendly to your own model so wouldn't score frame for murder.

As to the other one, it says that the obeyed model is considered friendly to your crew but I believe its still part of the opponents crew (at least for dropping scheme markers anyway) so might count for denying Frame