Yasunori, Obeys and Once per Activation triggers

[Paradigm]

I was discussing the potential of Yasunori in a crew with access to Obeys (Brewmaster, Ama no Zako) with a friend, and several rules questions came up. Example: Yasunori has already activated and charged into a bunch of enemies is standing within 2" of them. He has already triggered both of his extra attacks, and done a total four attacks. Next Brewmaster activates and uses an Obey on Yasunori to have him attack once more. What happens?

1) The triggers for extra attacks both say that they can be used once per activation. Can they be triggered again when Yasunori is Obeyed to do so outside of his activation?

2) If so, why can he do so? Do you somehow treat the Obey as a second activation, thus allowing them to be used again? Or does actions ocurring outside of activations simply ignore the "Once per activation" part of the Trigger?

3) If the latter is true, would that mean that you can use both triggers an infinite number of times if they occur outside of an activation?

A second example: Yasunori is in a crew with Asami and Ama no Zako. Yasunori has already activated and triggered both extra attacks, and he is unengaged and within 4" of Asami. Ama no Zako uses Promising Whispers on Yasunori, ordering him to charge as a 1 AP action due to Asamis aura. Promising Whispers say that the action can not use triggers. What happens?

A) The action that Promising Whispers produce is a Charge Action, that does not have triggers. The two attacks that come after are treated as separate actions, and can thus declare their extra attack triggers.

B ) The attacks produced by the charge are subject to the same limitations as the Charge Action caused by the Obey, thus no triggers can be declared on either of them.

[solkan]

From the FAQ:

Quote

16) Could you break down when “One per Activation” Actions can and cannot be used? Sure. If the Action has already been taken during the current Activation, then it may not be taken again. If the Action has not been taken yet during the current Activation, then it may be taken.

Note that Malifaux doesn't have nested Activations, so if Model A is activating and Obeys Model B to do something, it's still Model A's Activation.

Edit:  In other words, if you have a 'once per activation' limit, they model can do it once during its own activation, and then once during each other model's activation that you can figure out how to do it (obeys, or whatever).  

 

[solkan]

I guess it is worth noting that Malifaux and Warmachine/Hordes differ in what they mean by "per activation."  But the two games differ in how they define (and do) a lot of things.  

As far as "Does the prohibition carry over to generated Actions" question goes, I don't think there's any evidence that it does.  The prohibition would have to be worded differently to prohibit the actions the action generates from declaring triggers.  (Something like replacing the last sentence with 'The model may not declare triggers for the duration of the action.' would do.)

[Naimless]

1 hour ago, Gottkaiser said:

The action that isn't allowed to use triggers, is the charge action. You are correct that the charge action may not declare triggers, but it doesn't do so anyway.

A charge cannot declare a trigger as its not a duel.  A horror type duel fo the charge is separate and is not triggered in this case anyway as the duel would be defensive in nature for the Yasunori in this case i.e. being able to charge and IRC there are no triggers that would be relevant anyway as certain abilities (e.g. Kang) may allow it to be ignored.

This is a corner case situation as not many instances of 1 AP Charge are around and if it was a straight Ml /Ca/ Sh attack, then its clear that no tigger could be declared.  Its my view that its the intent that the actions taken from Promising Whisper, if they are consequent to another action would be limited in the same fashion.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love for that to be the case, but I just can't see that it was the framed inent to allow triggers for subsequent actions.

[Paradigm]

@solkan
Good answer! Seems consistent and logical.

What about the 1 AP charge through Promising Whisper? Can Yasunori trigger the extra attacks resulting from the charge? The wording of Ama no Zako's Promising Whisper is "Target non-leader model immediately performs a (1) Action chosen and controlled by this models controller. The target considers this model friendly for the duration of the attack. The action may not declare Triggers."

[Gottkaiser]

1 hour ago, Naimless said:

I'd say option B - triggers can't be declared on the charge attacks in this instance.

If you look at p38 of the rulebook- Actions causing actions - the attacks from a charge may cost no AP but the charge action limitation of can't use Triggers is not resolved until both attacks are complete. This would then dictate that the attacks would be subject to the no Triggers limitation.

I have to disagree with you on this. The action that isn't allowed to use triggers, is the charge action. You are correct that the charge action may not declare triggers, but it doesn't do so anyway. The action that declares a trigger is the Ml action. Yes, it was granted by the charge and the charge isn't done yet, but it still is a different action and thus imvao not limited by the limitations of the charge. To me, it seems equal to the focus situation: You can use it on the charge action (maybe for a horror duel or such), but if you do, it doesn't affect the attack actions generated by the charge.

[Naimless]

I'd say option B - triggers can't be declared on the charge attacks in this instance.

If you look at p36 of the rulebook- Actions causing actions - the attacks from a charge may cost no AP but the charge action limitation of can't use Triggers is not resolved until both attacks are complete. This would then dictate that the attacks would be subject to the no Triggers limitation.

So the logic as I see it is

- Within Asami range - Charge is 1 AP

- Promising Whisper- Perfom 1 AP Action - Charge with no Triggers

- 2 Attacks (1 AP melee attack actions) which cost no AP

 - Resolve attacks in order - *but* but the no Trigger effect is still there as the Charge is not yet resolved until both melee attacks are complete.

 - Compete charge action - no tigger limitation no longer applies.

This is different from Reactivate, where it could then activate again and resolve any attacks with the appropriate triggers.

 

*edited -its p 36 not p 38

Edited January 16, 2017 by Naimless
typos & correction

[Somnicide]

I think you'd have to be consistent re: the second option with Yasanori's own pseudo-obey of kodoku and Wrath of Heavens. By trying to squint and squeeze out a small amount of extra damage via the triggers during the attacks (since they aren't the charge) that would mean charge attacks generated by Yasanori and Kodoku wouldn't benefit from the extra Wrath of Heavens damage.

[santaclaws01]

2 hours ago, Somnicide said:

I think you'd have to be consistent re: the second option with Yasanori's own pseudo-obey of kodoku and Wrath of Heavens. By trying to squint and squeeze out a small amount of extra damage via the triggers during the attacks (since they aren't the charge) that would mean charge attacks generated by Yasanori and Kodoku wouldn't benefit from the extra Wrath of Heavens damage.

Firstly, Kodoku can only be used to cause an attack action, so no charging with that period. Secondly, it i says "During this action..." which means it applies for the entire length of the action. The real sticking point is how "chosen action" is interpreted.

 

 

3 hours ago, Naimless said:

A charge cannot declare a trigger as its not a duel.  A horror type duel fo the charge is separate and is not triggered in this case anyway as the duel would be defensive in nature for the Yasunori in this case i.e. being able to charge and IRC there are no triggers that would be relevant anyway as certain abilities (e.g. Kang) may allow it to be ignored.

This is a corner case situation as not many instances of 1 AP Charge are around and if it was a straight Ml /Ca/ Sh attack, then its clear that no tigger could be declared.  Its my view that its the intent that the actions taken from Promising Whisper, if they are consequent to another action would be limited in the same fashion.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love for that to be the case, but I just can't see that it was the framed inent to allow triggers for subsequent actions.

If that was the intent then it could very easily state "this model can not declare triggers for the duration of the action" or something like that. 1 AP charges have existed for awhile, and restrictions or bonuses to specifically one action have never carried over to actions that it generates.