Sybelle, Comply, and Terrifying

[benjoewoo]

I understand that it's almost universally accepted that Sybelle's Comply trigger from her Bleeding Tongue upgrade cannot cause an enemy model to target Sybelle and face her Terrifying 12 duel.

A search in this forum turned up no results for "Sybelle Comply."

I'm not advocating against the above, but I do want an explanation because the texts don't quite make sense to me right now.

Sybelle's Comply trigger reads: "After damaging, the target immediately takes a 1 AP Action controlled by this model. The model counts Sybelle as friendly for the duration of the Action."

Sybelle's Terrifying ability reads: "Terrifying (All) 12: Enemy models must pass a TN 12 Horror Duel if they end a Walk Action within this model’s engagement range or target this model with an Action."

On page 33 of the core rule book, it states: "Some rules reference friendly or enemy models. From a mechanical standpoint, friendly models are any models that are on the same Crew as the model the rule is affecting. Enemy models are any model that isn't on the same Crew. If a rule does not specifically state that it only affects friendly or enemy models (for instance legal targets for an Attack) then it can and does affect any model. When a model's Actions are controlled by the opponent (for instance with the Obey Action) the model does not change which models are considered friendly, its friends are still its friends."

Emphasis was added to my points of confusion. Comply only states that the targeted model, provided Sybelle successfully hit the model for damage with the comply trigger, considers Sybelle friendly for the duration of the action. Sybelle should therefore does not consider the targeted model based on the rules section quoted regarding differentiating friendly and enemy models. So, if Sybelle complies the targeted model to target Sybelle with an action and the targeted model has not previously passed Sybelle's Terrifying ability, why wouldn't the targeted model have to take the Terrifying test? Terrifying as worded references models that are enemies to Sybelle, which should still be the case since Comply does not state Sybelle considers the targeted model friendly for the duration of the action.

As an added note, a search through the September 2016 errata does not show any relevant results--I searched "Comply," "Bleeding Tongue," and "Sybelle."

Additionally, assuming the above means the targeted model does not take Sybelle's Terrifying test, what if Sybelle complied the targeted to take a walk action that ends within Sybelle's engagement range? The targeted model only considers Sybelle friendly for the duration of the action, and Sybelle's Terrifying (All) 12 ability provides that if enemy models end a Walk Action within Sybelle's engagement range, they must take the Horror Duel. If the targeted model ends its Walk Action within Sybelle's engagement range, it has necessarily ended and no longer considers Sybelle friendly--shouldn't that mean it triggers Sybelle's Terrifying ability and now need to take the Horror Duel? 

Please help with clarification--I've always played that Comply cannot trigger Sybelle's Terrifying 12, but I realized I did it without questioning why and on reading the cards and rules in greater detail, it doesn't make sense to me why the interaction is played this way.

[Hateful Darkblack]

Models only take Terrifying tests from enemy models. While under Comply, the model is friendly to its own Crew plus Sybelle. It will still have a Terrifying check from other models in Sybelle's Crew (so she can make something Walk up to Seamus and fail the check).

Actions aren't considered resolved until all followups are also resolved, so the model still considers Sybelle friendly until after the ended-near-an-enemy check for Terrifying.

[Starrius]

for the duration of the comply Sybelle is considered friendly and therefore doesn't force terror with the model she has compelled. I asked about that recently too from the regards of Hungry Darkness.

 

while the model is friendly to both his crew and Sybelle/Huggy the model isn't friendly to any other of your models so you can use it to force terror with another model.  eg I will force them to attack a illuminated and fail a terror TN10 duel

[Starrius]

the point is there are a few models which make the model friendly for the duration.

 

as someone posted to me. if Sybelle compels a model she is engaged with they wouldn't be able to use a shoot action to attack one of the models on the other crew. This means that the model becoming friendly also means they are no longer engaged unless they are also engaged with another within  your own faction. 

[benjoewoo]

6 hours ago, Adran said:

Its not strictly stated, but is implied that friendly and enemy are reciprical. So if I am friendly to you, your are friendly to me. 

This is backed up by the only times I can recall that the friendly/enemy status is changed is when a Terryifying model has a control type ability, and during playtesting this was to stop the "I obey you, you target me and become paralysed". 

 

I can't find anything formal about the end of an action, but every other end of effect (Turn, and Activation) occur in the step between saying its the end, and it actually finishing. (Page 34 for end activation, 32 for end of turn). This is one of the few times that end of action timing matters (I can't think of another, but I'm not going to rule any out)

 

Ok--this is the crux of my question: rules references. While the mentality makes sense, there's nothing explicitly supporting it and it's left someone like myself, a player who came to Malifaux a year+ after M2E's release, with no explicit reference for why either interaction would not result in the complied model taking a terrifying test. 

Someone pointed out that the line regarding the complied model considering Sybelle friendly would be irrelevant if Sybelle did not implicitly also consider the complied model friendly. My first thought was complying Colette to prompt the now friendly Sybelle. It would be irrelevant whether Sybelle considered Colette friendly because Colette's prompt only checks Colette is targeting a friendly model in reference to Colette. Colette's prompt range vs. her ability to displace herself cannot put her out of range for Prompt on Sybelle barring a terrain piece of set up of models block LoS after the place, and if Colette is unable to place herself for some reason, the interaction is important because Colette could prompt Sybelle into attacking her again, generating an extra attack for a card 4+.

Also for the second point, other end of effects seem inapplicable as examples because they generally cause the secondary effect as part of the original action, as the core rulebook indicates with its charge and Make a New Entry examples. The book again also explicitly lists resolution as occurring once the last required step of an action has resolved, and in the case of a Walk action, that would be once movement has ended given the wording. If there is another example that cares about end of action timing in the same way Sybelle's does, this would clarify it more--I thought of Obey and Prompt, but they create the same interaction.

The only example I can think of that may imply the end of the movement caused by a Walk Action is not also the resolution of the action itself is Pounce on Rotten Belles. However, this does not solve the issue for Sybelle considering the complied model friendly and explicitly excludes Walk Actions from Pounce's triggering requirement. It also does not necessarily resolve the end vs. resolution question because it does not directly deny the Walk Action would be resolved--movement is necessarily part of a Walk Action since it is also comprised of declaring variations and spending AP.

[benjoewoo]

Could you please reference the rules to help with clarity, particularly why the friendly status is mutual for Sybelle to the targeted model? For the first thing, that's why I brought up that Terrifying is worded that models that are an enemy to Sybelle (for her own Terrifying ability) while Comply only states the targeted model considers Sybelle friendly. Sybelle's Terrifying ability, along with all other instances of Terrifying I've seen, reference models that are enemy to the model that has the Terrifying ability. The Horror Duels section in the core rule book on page 48 does not clarify timing and does not offer other additional clarification. 

For the second part, I understand the reasoning that if actions cause abilities, then abilities resolve before the actions are considered "resolved." However, I can't find a rules reference. The "Actions causing Actions" call out box on page 38 of the core rule book only references actions in the first paragraph for purposes of costing AP and resolving the original action. It only addresses actions and its examples are charge and Make a New Entry because it explains how to deal with AP costs with relation to taking actions that cause other actions. The text regarding resolving the action that generates action seems inapplicable because it does not address abilities and ultimately, Terrifying only applies once the Walk Action ends. Under the Actions section on page 37 of the core rule book, the Walk Action would actually resolve once the model declaring the Walk Action stopped moving since there are no duels required to take the Walk action and all related requirements of the Walk Action, i.e. spending AP and declaring variables, have already been addressed by the time the model moves according to the declared Walk Action. So, this would mean that for purposes of a Terrifying ability, the Walk Action would have ended and resolved at the time the model declaring the Walk Action finished moving as a result of the action. The Tactical Actions does not offer any clarification from what I see on the next page.

Thanks for posting--I know it's late and I appreciate the help!

[Adran]

Its not strictly stated, but is implied that friendly and enemy are reciprical. So if I am friendly to you, your are friendly to me. 

This is backed up by the only times I can recall that the friendly/enemy status is changed is when a Terryifying model has a control type ability, and during playtesting this was to stop the "I obey you, you target me and become paralysed". 

 

I can't find anything formal about the end of an action, but every other end of effect (Turn, and Activation) occur in the step between saying its the end, and it actually finishing. (Page 34 for end activation, 32 for end of turn). This is one of the few times that end of action timing matters (I can't think of another, but I'm not going to rule any out)

 

[godswearhats]

This is ambiguous in the rules. There is nothing to state that if model A on crew 1 considers model B on crew 2 friendly that the reverse is also true. So if model A is hit by B's Comply, A considers B friendly, but without an explicit rule (and I've searched all available docs digitally) to state that this reciprocates, then we have to assume that model B considers model A an enemy.

The ambiguity comes in when we refer to Terrifying.

Quote

Terrifying (All) 12: Enemy models must pass a TN 12 Horror Duel if they end a Walk Action within this model’s engagement range or target this model with an Action.

B considers A to be an enemy. So it could be inferred that because the Ability is on B, that the Terrifying test must happen. However, it can also be inferred to be vice versa, because model A is the one that would have to perform the duel.

@Aaron, while I'm loathe to invoke thy holy name, this might be a good candidate for the next FAQ.
 

Quote

 

Q) If an effect generated by a model on my crew makes a model on an enemy crew consider my model friendly (e.g. Madame Sybelle's Comply trigger), does my model now also consider the enemy model friendly?

A) Yes / No (delete as appropriate)

 

This would then clarify in case there actions which could be forced to be taken that would benefit Sybelle. Various actions benefit friendly or enemy models within a pulse range - which would Sybelle be for those? I think the simplest all round is if it reciprocates (i.e. Sybelle considers the model friendly for the duration of that action) but I leave that choice to higher powers :-)