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koronuslight

Desolate Warping v Not Today Lads

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17 answers to this question

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31 minutes ago, Artiee said:

Now this I think is a good FAQ question. 

Since Desolate Warping is after reducing enemy model to 0 wounds and Not Today Lads is when model is killed.   When you reduce to 0 wounds you immediately kill.  

I would think Not Today Lads would happen before Desolate Warping.

 

Meanwhile I think the opposite. "When a model is reduced to 0 or fewer Wd" is a requirement for "the model is instantly Killed," but now you have an action trigger that takes place at the same time as an effect that would remove the model. Furthermore, it's not the Killed model's ability, but the ability of a nearby model that would prevent it from being killed. Meanwhile, the condition on the trigger only says 0 Wd, not Killed, so there's still interpretation either way. 

I'm not arguing that one happens and the other does not. I am arguing that both happen because both have different timing. "If 0 Wd" would resolve before "then killed"

 

Additional: I want an official, from-Wyrd timing clarification as a single sheet or section, not scattered throughout pages, or requiring me to have to stand around with my phone during a game and look up whether or not someone may or may not have posted the same question to be answered by the players and not by the people who made the actual rules. Just saying. 

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Agree..  But Desolate is not When reduced but After reduced.   

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3 hours ago, koronuslight said:

The word "after" isn't the issue here. It's the timing of the steps.

1. I cause 1+ damage to a model with 1 Wd remaining, which it does not prevent or reduce. 

2. The model is now at 0 Wd.

It is at this point that both "After reducing an enemy model to 0 Wounds" for Desolate Warping and "If the model is reduced to 0 or fewer Wounds" for being Killed both come into play. The model has to be reduced to 0 Wd before it can be killed, and the model has to be killed before you can discard a card to keep it from being killed. Therefore, the condition for Desolate Warping has been met, because after a model has been reduced to 0 Wd, it is also considered killed. They happen literally at the same time. 

No, they don't happen at the same time.  Effects for "when" or "if" happen before effects that happen after "after" effects.  Because the "when" effects happen as part of the other effect.

That's the English meaning, reinforced by entries such as FAQ #95 concerning Road Kill Scholar.

 

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Does the order really matter? No Today, Lads doesn't change the fact that a model was reduced to 0 Wds, it just retcons the killed state and then heals the model. It would matter against things that have an effect on killed (e.g. Datsue Ba's summons), but Desolate Warping doesn't care if anyone was killed.

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On 1/11/2017 at 3:01 PM, koronuslight said:

 

... because a model must be reduced to 0 Wd in order to be killed - that's how cause and effect work, regardless of which language. 

 

Just a quick chiming in: Actually, that is not always the case. Both effects that sacrifice or instantly kill a model (such as Misaki's assassinate trigger) doesn't count as reducing the model to 0 wounds. 

(one of the earlier discussions about it: )

 

That aside, I'd also want a bit of further clarification on the subject since there are multiple models where similiar interactions may occur. 

- Not Today lads (Death Marshal Recruiter)

- One with the Night (Bete Noire)

- Pariah's Soul (Leveticus)

- Death Defying (Colette)

- Spirit Beacon (Kirai or spirit upgrade)

- Chosen (Shield Bearer)

There are probably more examples that I've missed. How would you all say Desolate Soul would work on them? 

 

 

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If they have the same timing  then the following applies. 

(I don't have the wording to hand, but I think not today lads is based on being killed, which is not the same time as being reduced to 0 wounds. Desolate warping could be the same)

 

Defenders Trigger

Attackers Trigger 

Acting models ability

Defending model ability

Other models controlled by First player resolve abilities in the order chosen by first player

Other models controlled by second player abilities in the order chosen by second player

 

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1 hour ago, koronuslight said:

So the answer is Desolate Warping, then Not Today Lads?

It would really help if you posted the text of the things in question so that people don't have to go scouring through the books to look for the exact wordings of them both.

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I don't know what model to see what "Not Today Lads" is.

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Death Marshal Recruiter.

Ability: When another friendly Guild Marshal within Aura 4 without this ability is killed, it may discard a card. If it does, it is not killed and heals one wound.

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doesn't prevent the damage so he goes to 0 wounds then doesn't die then heals so surely you get your abomination

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Ok.. who has Desolate Warping ?

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After reducing an enemy model to 0 wounds, summon an abomination into base contact with it before removing it. The target does not drop corpse or scrap markers.

Trigger on Levi, Alyce, and Ashes and dust.

 

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Now this I think is a good FAQ question. 

Since Desolate Warping is after reducing enemy model to 0 wounds and Not Today Lads is when model is killed.   When you reduce to 0 wounds you immediately kill.  

I would think Not Today Lads would happen before Desolate Warping.

 

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8 minutes ago, Artiee said:

Agree..  But Desolate is not When reduced but After reduced.   

The word "after" isn't the issue here. It's the timing of the steps.

1. I cause 1+ damage to a model with 1 Wd remaining, which it does not prevent or reduce. 

2. The model is now at 0 Wd.

It is at this point that both "After reducing an enemy model to 0 Wounds" for Desolate Warping and "If the model is reduced to 0 or fewer Wounds" for being Killed both come into play. The model has to be reduced to 0 Wd before it can be killed, and the model has to be killed before you can discard a card to keep it from being killed. Therefore, the condition for Desolate Warping has been met, because after a model has been reduced to 0 Wd, it is also considered killed. They happen literally at the same time. 

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13 hours ago, solkan said:

No, they don't happen at the same time.  Effects for "when" or "if" happen before effects that happen after "after" effects.  Because the "when" effects happen as part of the other effect.

That's the English meaning, reinforced by entries such as FAQ #95 concerning Road Kill Scholar.

 

+1 Thanks for the FAQ example, but they are not the same thing. Your example references what happens when two Ability effects happen at the same time.

#95 says: "Abilities that happen “if ” a certain situation arises happen “when” that situation arises, so Explosive Demise and Road Kill Scholar would have the same timing point in the above example. In this instance, see the General Timing box on pg. 46 of the core rulebook. As there is no Acting or Defending model, the Abilities belonging to that Turn’s First Player would go first." 

So, 

On 1/10/2017 at 8:40 AM, Adran said:

If they have the same timing  then the following applies. 

(I don't have the wording to hand, but I think not today lads is based on being killed, which is not the same time as being reduced to 0 wounds. Desolate warping could be the same)

 

Defenders Trigger

Attackers Trigger 

Acting models ability

Defending model ability

Other models controlled by First player resolve abilities in the order chosen by first player

Other models controlled by second player abilities in the order chosen by second player

 

Desolate Warping happens before Not Today Lads, because its the Attacker Trigger before the Other Model Ability as written in the Core Rules. As written, Desolate Warping happens because the model is reduced to 0 Wd BEFORE Not Today Lads can happen, because a model must be reduced to 0 Wd in order to be killed - that's how cause and effect work, regardless of which language. 

What I would like from Wyrd is an OFFICIAL clarification on the matter.

Because the way you're all explaining it, you're ignoring the fact the model was brought to 0 Wd at all. 

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According to FAQ 85 regarding violation of Magic and explosive demise

When a target is reduced to 0 wounds, and when it is killed are the same time. So after a model is reduced to 0 wound would be a later time point. 

So on the assumption that the wording of the abilities are

"after reducing a model to 0 wounds"

"when a model is killed"

They are not at the same time. So Death marshal recruiter ability will happen before the Desolate warping trigger 

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