Archie, and the state of Pariah of Bone

[No Gods or Kings. Only Man]

To start off, I'd like to mention that I play exclusively Leveticus and Colette.

I bought Archie in the BF sale, thinking to make him the base of a Pariah of Bone list. Ever since M2E came out and Leveticus could no longer use corpse markers for anything, Pariah of Bone was released into a place where it was a rather pointless upgrade, and has been left to the side for the three types of Leveticus list that are actually viable:

• Pariah of Iron
• Pure Outcasts
• 4 Horsemen

I got Archie to try and wrangle a fun list (because Archie looks really fun) from Pariah of Bone. As I read Archie's card (yeah, should have gotten the book first, my mistake) it didn't take many seconds to realise that Archie can't stitch on anything in a Leveticus crew because of how that skill works. He is essentially a heavily overcosted beatstick to me. Which isn't the fun I wanted.

While others, like Ryle, can't have their special upgrades with Leveticus, they aren't so reliant on them, either.

I'm proposing that this only serves to create less diversity, and I believe these cross hirings should be considered more in the design of characters like Archie that rely so heavily on their special upgrades. As it is, Leveticus specialty of having a large hiring pool is more and more being diluted by everyone having a larger hiring pool, and these more advanced models are being made ineligible due to exclusive upgrades.

I'm suggesting that the guys in playtesting should at least consider adding to the (0) cost Archie upgrades that they can be taken as any faction.

[Fetid Strumpet]

You're assuming it was an overlook and not a design feature. The wording on it specifically prevent's outside models from hiring him and using his upgrades, I would postulate that WAS the intent.

The problem with open ended hiring restrictions like Levi's is that it creates massive challenges to balance anything he can hire for their own faction. Things have to be lessened in power or tweaked in some way, not because the faction that gets the model can abuse it, but because some combination exists that Levi can create that is able to abuse it, and that shackles what they can design in the future. I would argue we need more of this design, well executed I mean because Archie isn't really worth it even in ressers, not less.

[Pyrflamme]

I actually just picked up Archie last night, was planning on mostly Rezzer stuff with him (Molly, Tara, maybe I'll get Nicodem painted one of these days...) but it didn't click to me that Archie couldn't run his upgrade playstyle under Levi. I'd be curious to hear how much Archie + Levi play took place during playtesting, and whether it should be re-examined for summer 2017 or winter 2018 errata.

[Adran]

I think you are underestimating the number of Undead things that levi can hire.  I can confirm that Bone lists can do well. 

[No Gods or Kings. Only Man]

@Fetid: I absolutely think you might be right, but if you build a master around having his strength be that he can hire different things to make synergies around them rather than having any himself (since he doesn't have any. There is no "X can do Y with minions that are Showgirls"-style effects about him) and then you procede to intentionally break that power by reducing those hired by making them utterly weak outside of their faction, then what was the point of making the master that way to begin with? If it's an errata to address something utterly broken, then I'm right there with you, but not to break it from the get-go just in case someone might think of something strong.

@Adran A Bone list is only ever a weaker version of a Resser list. He has nothing that buffs anything, so while, say, a Flesh Construct is great in a Levi crew (and would be in a bone crew too if it didn't happen to be a construct) that's just because it's a strong model. It's not as good as it would be in a McMourning crew where it can be reliably poisoned.

A Bone crew placed against an Iron crew basically just has less chance to get scrap markers for Rusty, and doesn't have the beautiful capability to deny ressers of corpse markers by dropping scrap, and has to rely on simply being beefier. Which it would generally do better under a resser master, as most undeads are from ressers. So it's basically a Rogue Necromancy crew, I guess, as it's ridiculously powerful? Oh but that's construct too...

[Seadhna]

11 minutes ago, No Gods or Kings. Only Man said:

@Fetid: I absolutely think you might be right, but if you build a master around having his strength be that he can hire different things to make synergies around them rather than having any himself (since he doesn't have any. There is no "X can do Y with minions that are Showgirls"-style effects about him) and then you procede to intentionally break that power by reducing those hired by making them utterly weak outside of their faction, then what was the point of making the master that way to begin with? If it's an errata to address something utterly broken, then I'm right there with you, but not to break it from the get-go just in case someone might think of something strong.

@Adran A Bone list is only ever a weaker version of a Resser list. He has nothing that buffs anything, so while, say, a Flesh Construct is great in a Levi crew (and would be in a bone crew too if it didn't happen to be a construct) that's just because it's a strong model. It's not as good as it would be in a McMourning crew where it can be reliably poisoned.

A Bone crew placed against an Iron crew basically just has less chance to get scrap markers for Rusty, and doesn't have the beautiful capability to deny ressers of corpse markers by dropping scrap, and has to rely on simply being beefier. Which it would generally do better under a resser master, as most undeads are from ressers. So it's basically a Rogue Necromancy crew, I guess, as it's ridiculously powerful? Oh but that's construct too...

There are a number of Undead models that work well (i've used Bete Noire and Hanged to moderate success, for instance) in a Bone list. 

 

Moreover, there are now several Undead models that are uniquely available to Leveticus outside their native faction (think Titania's knights and rougarou) and look potent in the gg2017 scheme pool. 

 

That's just off the top of my head since I only started Leveticus a few months ago and have positive winrate with him. 

 

Things I do know is that you don't have to use Rusty or summon Abominations, and in-faction beaters are better than rogue necromancy

[No Gods or Kings. Only Man]

Bete Noir was actually in my theoretical list that had Archie. I haven't had a chance to look at the knights.

But again, I'm not arguing that there are strong models. I'm saying that others can always utilise those models better, except for the fact that Levi can make combinations that others can't. And we can't deny that Iron is more popular than Bone by a long way, even if you HAVE found some cool models with it.

In the end, I just don't want to lose fun models like Archie based only on a rather weird way to limit him out of the pool. It's not like I'm whining about the most powerful Undead being unavailable to me here. I would actually understand that better if it were the case.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Just to clarify this isn't a criticism of you. I would disagree with that characterization of Levi. But that is besides the point because it sounds to me, though I could be wrong, that your argument is that because Levi can hire any undead or Construct in the game, he is entitled to every one that gets created, at full effect?

Personally I was happy that finally something that ressers can take worked better for them, the intended home faction, than for those that can pull their models out into their own factions and use their better combinations of models/upgrades to make the Resser models better out of Ressers. Shame that the model's rules are pretty much trash though. :/

If you just want to use him for fun just ask your opponent outside an organized event if they mind if you use his upgrades. You don't need official permission to enjoy the game in a way you want outside of an organized event.

In retrospect I think that might have sounded Harsher then intended. Totally respect your opinion even if I don't agree with it.

[Seadhna]

4 minutes ago, No Gods or Kings. Only Man said:

Bete Noir was actually in my theoretical list that had Archie. I haven't had a chance to look at the knights.

But again, I'm not arguing that there are strong models. I'm saying that others can always utilise those models better, except for the fact that Levi can make combinations that others can't. And we can't deny that Iron is more popular than Bone by a long way, even if you HAVE found some cool models with it.

In the end, I just don't want to lose fun models like Archie based only on a rather weird way to limit him out of the pool. It's not like I'm whining about the most powerful Undead being unavailable to me here. I would actually understand that better if it were the case.

I think it's mostly due to the fact that there are way more Constructs than Undead (undead are basically mostly Ressers, Constructs are Guild, Arcanists, TT and Neverborn, even Gremlins but we don't get them). 

So a Bone Leveticus is basically just a shooty version of Seamus with two extra activations (you're gonna use Belles because). 

 

Actually, from a fluff point of view, Leveticus's thematic pieces are dual-type construct-undead, so the two limited pariah upgrades are simply ways to refine your list with 1-2 models of your liking. The core will always be your necropunks and flesh constructs and valedictorian that mirror his in-faction friends A&D/ abominations and enable him to freely choose between teleports and card draw. 

 

Those 1-2 model slits are the flexible slot that you fill with a key model. It's just there are no Undead models that are on par with things like Mech Rider, Joss or Langston (despite your personal grief, I don't think Archie would have been a better hire than A&D at his cost)

On the lower-cost supporty side there's actually some variation since Iron gets you Effigies (who have the best statline for cost in the game) and Terracotta Warriors, while Bone gets you Belles and Crooligans. 

 

What I'm trying to say is there might be a different way to build lists with Leveticus that isn't what you or I would want him to be but still more in line with the designer's vision 

[Erorior]

After playing Leveticus a lot (both before and after the errata) I've found myself almost always going for Pariah of Bone lately. There are a lot of constructs out there, an many of them are good beaters. Langston, Joss, Ryle etc. What I feel is that I already got my different flavours of beatsticks already in Outcasts (Ashes and Dust, Rusty Alyce, Strongarm Suit, etc), and generally need more support/disruption-based shenanigans to complement my crew. I will often take a Belle, and Bete Noire and Dead Doxies tend to find their way into my crews as well. I'm also looking forward to grabbing Titanias box when it becomes more widely available to add the scheme-tricks of the autumn knights. In my opinion, I get more things that I otherwise wouldn't have access to when going for Pariah of Bone.  What Pariah of Iron would contribute is the Mechanical rider and it's summoning, but I usually pass on it as well since I tend to run Leveticus as an offensive summoner and the waifs lets me get plenty of activation from the beginning as well. I could also see myself picking Pariah of Iron for the soulstone miners if the scenario really would benefit from them. 

This is, of course, only my impression and many might disagree with my choice of models (for example, I almost never field Rusty Alyce), but I thought that I'd chip in and give my thoughts on some of the the tactics available when running Bone over Iron.