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fauxreigner

Jack Daw remembering injustice

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Apologies because I know this has been discussed before, but I don't know whether a final consensus was ever reached - I've seen contradictory posts about how this works recently on A Wyrd Place. The question is, whether the trigger Remember Injustice on Jack's Noose attack can benefit from extra damage due to Firing Squad Injustice and The Bigger They Are. 

Lets take Firing Squad Injustice first. It says "When this model suffers damage from an attack action, it suffers +1 damage". Because Remember Injustice is part of the initial Noose attack action, it seems that this damage source should also benefit from +1 damage due to Firing Squad. But then I've also seen it argued that the overall Noose attack action can only receive +1 damage in total. So if you have applied this +1 to the original hit, you can't apply it again to the trigger damage. However, that interpretation seems counter intuitive to me.

The Bigger They Are is worded slightly differently: "This models close attack actions that deal damage +1 damage to non-Masters with an upgrade attached". Again, Remember Injustice is considered part of a close attack action, so on face value you would expect the +1 to apply again. But I've seen the same counter argument outlined above applied here as well. 

So can we resolve this once and for all? Exactly how much damage should Remember Injustice do to a model with Firing Squad Injustice, if Jack has Bigger They Are??

 

NOTE: posted this here rather than in rules forum, to gain more exposure to those in the know (Outcast players).

 

 

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If I liken it to the critical strike ability, where every :ram in the final total adds +1 to the damage. If your damage track is 2/3/4 with a built in :ram then when you call the trigger you get a 3/4/5 damage track, if you flip or cheat a :ram and call the trigger your damage track is 4/5/6 and if you can burn a stone on a henchman or master for another :ram and call the trigger then your damage track is 5/6/7.

When a model suffers damage while under the effects of Firing Squad Injustice it suffers +1 damage, so if it were hit by Bishop with his 2/3/4 damage track, it would count as a 3/4/5 damage track. If he was carrying The Bigger They Are, then because they have an upgrade (and as long as they are not a master) then he would have a 4/5/6 damage track against them. Since he has the Critical Strike trigger, and Adaptive allows him to add a suit at the start of his activation, he can add a :ram and call the trigger for 5/6/7, and if he manages to flip or cheat another :ram it becomes 6/7/8, which, while situational, is a very tasty damage track.

When Jack pulls off a Curse with Remember Injustice it is a separate source of damage to his Noose attack, so the damage taken would be increased by +1 for Firing Squad Injustice. Since it is also a damaging melee attack, and so long as the attacked model was not a master, The Bigger They Are should also increase it by +1. So, while under the effect of Firing Squad Injustice, against a non-master, Jack would have a 4/5/6 damage track with Noose causing 3 damage when Remember Injustice is triggered.

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19 minutes ago, Freman said:

 

When Jack pulls off a Curse with Remember Injustice it is a separate source of damage to his Noose attack, so the damage taken would be increased by +1 for Firing Squad Injustice. Since it is also a damaging melee attack, and so long as the attacked model was not a master, The Bigger They Are should also increase it by +1. So, while under the effect of Firing Squad Injustice, against a non-master, Jack would have a 4/5/6 damage track with Noose causing 3 damage when Remember Injustice is triggered.

See, there's the counter-intuitive part for me as well.

Remember Injustice is a trigger, so it is a part of the original Noose action, not a separate action in itself. Therefore it should not benefit from Bigger They Are or Firing Squad Injustice.

Otherwise you could argue that by attacking a model with Firing Squad and, say, Drowning, you would inflict +1 damage to the damage track from Firing Squad and 3 damage from Remember Injustice, because Firing squad would also be triggered.

This seems completely unintuitive to me, and I would have trouble justifying it to people if I supported that point of view.

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30 minutes ago, Freman said:

When Jack pulls off a Curse with Remember Injustice it is a separate source of damage to his Noose attack, so the damage taken would be increased by +1 for Firing Squad Injustice. Since it is also a damaging melee attack, and so long as the attacked model was not a master, The Bigger They Are should also increase it by +1. So, while under the effect of Firing Squad Injustice, against a non-master, Jack would have a 4/5/6 damage track with Noose causing 3 damage when Remember Injustice is triggered.

Why would Remember Injustice do 3 damage, and not 4? +1 for Firing Squad and another +1 for Bigger They Are?

 

5 minutes ago, Seadhna said:

See, there's the counter-intuitive part for me as well.

Remember Injustice is a trigger, so it is a part of the original Noose action, not a separate action in itself. Therefore it should not benefit from Bigger They Are or Firing Squad Injustice.

In my opinion, the wording on Firing Squad seems kind of clear. "When this model suffers damage from an attack action...". It suffers damage once from the original Noose, and once from Remember Injustice, and both are "damage from an attack action", meaning that both should receive +1. But I think that the slightly different wording on Bigger They Are leaves the door open for your interpretation. "This models close actions deal +1 damage..." could be interpreted that the entire action (including all triggers) can only deal +1 in total.

But, digging into the weeds on this makes my head hurt and I'm hoping some more accomplished rules lawyer can make a definitive case *flips to summon rules lawyer*.

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So I have a different way of looking at it.  Firing squad part that matters is "When this model suffers damage from an attack action it suffers +1 damage".  That to me means damage from attack action, not damage from a trigger on an attack action.  For bigger they are "...models :meleeactions which deal damage deal +1 to non-masters models with one or more upgrades attached."  Again I don't see it applies to triggers.

So...Daw attacks a minion with no upgrades...First :meleeattack hits and does min damage of 2.  No bonus for Bigger they are, or for attaching firing squad as that will happen after this action is completed.  Second :melee attack hits and does min damage of 4 this time.  2 base from the noose attack, +1 for firing squad, and +1 for bigger they are.  Then the trigger of removing the firing squad would occur and do 2 more damage.  

Just to put that in perspective...over 2 attack, with a CA of 7 and only doing min damage that 8.  An average of 4 each attack, again with CA7.  That's harder than most masters.  To say that it should be more seems way outside the norm.  That's how I see it.  Please tell me how I am wrong so Daw will do more damage.

Thanks

Steven

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The problem is that there is a Gremlin upgrade that prevents damage from attacks, and is widely accepted that it can be applied to prevent the damage from the dumb's luck trigger. If the damage suffered from the dumb's luck trigger is considered caused by an attack, the Remember Injustice should be considered equal. 

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Stilts, and yes it's commonly used to prevent Francois taking damage when he uses the Dumb Luck trigger on his pistol. That allows him to use the 4/6/8 damage track without taking 2/3/4 damage himself.

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I think it can go either way. I personally would go for just 2 damage on the trigger because doing 8 damage on minimum is kind of ridiculous. 

Stilts prevents damage from MI attacks. Francis does 10 damage to target and prevents the 5 to himself that are caused by the trigger so therefore triggers are considered part of an attack action. In this case the 2 damage is obviously a second source of damage and could go around hard to kill but would be reduced by armor again, separate from the first instance of damage. 

The thing we are trying to figure out is if the +1 damage from either upgrade will be reapplied for the separate instance of trigger damage. You can either argue that you already got your plus 1 damage for the attack so you don't get it again or if it applies every single time the attack generates damage. 

Assuming minimum damage on the attack

(2 + 1 + 1 = 4) then trigger for (2 + 1 + 1 = 4) for a total of 8 

or 

(2 + 1 + 1 = 4 then trigger for + 2) = 6 

Until an official ruling comes out we should probably default to the lesser reading. But I can see how it can be interpreted both ways. 

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7 hours ago, Freman said:

If I liken it to the critical strike ability, where every :ram in the final total adds +1 to the damage. If your damage track is 2/3/4 with a built in :ram then when you call the trigger you get a 3/4/5 damage track, if you flip or cheat a :ram and call the trigger your damage track is 4/5/6 and if you can burn a stone on a henchman or master for another :ram and call the trigger then your damage track is 5/6/7.

When a model suffers damage while under the effects of Firing Squad Injustice it suffers +1 damage, so if it were hit by Bishop with his 2/3/4 damage track, it would count as a 3/4/5 damage track. If he was carrying The Bigger They Are, then because they have an upgrade (and as long as they are not a master) then he would have a 4/5/6 damage track against them. Since he has the Critical Strike trigger, and Adaptive allows him to add a suit at the start of his activation, he can add a :ram and call the trigger for 5/6/7, and if he manages to flip or cheat another :ram it becomes 6/7/8, which, while situational, is a very tasty damage track.

When Jack pulls off a Curse with Remember Injustice it is a separate source of damage to his Noose attack, so the damage taken would be increased by +1 for Firing Squad Injustice. Since it is also a damaging melee attack, and so long as the attacked model was not a master, The Bigger They Are should also increase it by +1. So, while under the effect of Firing Squad Injustice, against a non-master, Jack would have a 4/5/6 damage track with Noose causing 3 damage when Remember Injustice is triggered.

I would just like to point out that stuff like critical strike isn't actually changing the damage track. from 2/3/4 to 3/4/5. Its more like 2/3/4 + 1. This matters for red joker damage because even with a ram you would still only add two to the total. 2/3/4 + 1 + 2 = 7. 

In the case of dumb luck it has been argued for a Glowly Pere (makes him +1 damage) and his dumb luck. Dumb luck states that you take half the flipped damage and the flipped damage track is 2/6/8. With glowy it becomes 2/6/8 + 1 but the + 1 isn't part of the flip its an extra addition. So instead of taking 5 damage for 9/2 rounded up is 5, Pere would take 4 because 8/2 is the flipped then you add 1 but flip itself is 8.  This argument was poorly explained but I hope I made it somewhat legible. Please let me know your thoughts.

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OK, just reread whole FAQ to find something...Found this...

70) If a Trigger on an Action causes a damage flip, does that count as part of the original Action? Is it modified by things like the Accuracy Modifier and Focus? Yes, Triggers that cause damage flips are a part of the Action which caused them and any damage flip on such a Trigger would retain any modifiers to the original flip including Accuracy, Focus, cover, etc.

So triggers are part of that attack, and modifiers apply to the trigger.  So now I think the +1 modifiers would count on triggers.

Thoughts?

 

 

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Yeah, I'm in agreement. If we were being pedantic, we could say that Remember Injustice does not cause a damage flip (it causes a fixed amount of damage) so the Errata does not cover this. But I think the intention is clear. For the Firing Squad Injustice bonus, it seems pretty clear cut. Every time the model holding it takes damage, you just need to ask "Did this damage come from an Attack Damage? If yes, deal +1 damage". Given that Remember Injustice is part of the original Noose attack, then yes, the damage did come from an attack action, so deal +1 damage. I guess the same logic applies to Bigger They Are, but I still having a lingering doubt that the different wording there might change something.

So, if this is correct then Jack can deal a rather ludicrous amount of damage from a single charge: 10 on a model that didn't originally have an upgrade, or 11 on a model that did. Given that he has 3AP and (presumably) Oathkeeper, this makes me feel a little bit dirty for recently starting up a Jack crew. But only a little bit ;).

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30 minutes ago, keget said:

OK, just reread whole FAQ to find something...Found this...

70) If a Trigger on an Action causes a damage flip, does that count as part of the original Action? Is it modified by things like the Accuracy Modifier and Focus? Yes, Triggers that cause damage flips are a part of the Action which caused them and any damage flip on such a Trigger would retain any modifiers to the original flip including Accuracy, Focus, cover, etc.

So triggers are part of that attack, and modifiers apply to the trigger.  So now I think the +1 modifiers would count on triggers.

Thoughts?

 

 

I'm gonna say no because it is clearly talking about damage flips, not straight damage. The examples are accuracy modifiers and focus which only apply to damage flips. I don't think that we can use that FAQ to make this ruling. There is another one that comes to the same conclusion but I believe is more in line with the circumstances of Jack's attack. 

 

93) Can we get some more details on how the Nurse’s Hallucinogens Condition works? Sure! The Hallucinogens Condition causes any Ml Actions which deal damage to deal +2 damage. So if the Action causes no damage, it does not benefit from the +2. However, if the model creates multiple damage sources with a single Attack (such as with Hammerfall) each damage source would also benefit from the +2 damage as it is a part of the Action.

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