Attacking a model with 0 wounds

[Emeurade]

Hey guys, this came up on my facebook feed, and they're having a lot of troubles answering it.  Somebody was playing datsu ba and Dastu Ba attacked another model.  Datsu Ba did the trigger to get a second attack on the same target, and did enough damage to reduce the enemy model to zero wounds.  He then did the second attack against the model with zero wounds and summoned a Gaki off of it, and then the model was removed from the table for having zero wounds.

What we have so far is that since you resolve any triggers before removing the model, you can still target it with the second attack.

What people are arguing now is that if the model has no wounds left, they can't do any damage for anything that requires damaging, like blasts, healing, and triggers that say "after damaging". 

Here is the question being dealt with, "

Soooo, I have a rules question I want clarified. If you have a trigger that states "Take this action again, against the same target". Can you perform the action if the model you targeted died.

I bring this up, because while at NOVA, someone was using Datsue Ba and she killed a model, but got the trigger to immediately take the weigh sins action. The weigh sins action has a trigger to summon a Gaki when the model dies. So, it was claimed that if you hit the first trigger and killed your target, you still get the make the second attack and if you get that trigger, you get a gaki...

 

Is this true?

 

[solkan]

The attack is permitted due to the noted 'after damaging' trigger rule stating that the effect is resolved before the killed model is removed from the table.

For the record, in order for the trigger on Datsu Ba to summon a Gaki, the triggered attack has to do more than just cause damage.  The trigger on the granted attack has to kill the model.

Because the sequence is:

• Datsue Ba declares the Judgement attack action, and the Skinned Alive trigger.  The Judgement attack inflicts sufficient damage to kill the target, and Skinned Alive is an "After damaging" trigger that allows performing Weigh Sins against the target.
• The Condemned trigger on Weigh Sins is what would summon the Gaki.

Weigh Sins:

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After killing an enemy model, summon a Gaki into base contact with the target before removing it.

It isn't relevant whether Weigh Sins can do any damage to the model because that's not what summons the gaki.  What's relevant is that the model is already dead so Weigh Sins can't kill it.

Note that while the rulebook implies that a model can go negative in wounds:

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When a number of points of damage is taken by a model, it reduces its current Wounds by that amount.  If the model is reduced to 0 or fewer Wounds it is immediately removed from the game as killed.

the FAQ says otherwise:

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31) Can a model ever be reduced to a negative number of Wounds?

No. The lowest number of Wounds a model may ever have is zero (0).

So the model at 0 wounds isn't reduced any further.  Since it's state wasn't changed, it can't be killed a second time.

 

[Four_N_Six]

I agree that the second attack is allowed, but I don't see it summoning a Gaki.  The model was dead before the attack was made, the attack isn't what killed it.

[santaclaws01]

1 hour ago, BigHammer said:

No. The model dies (and is removed from play) before you get to take the second attack. This has come up before re: Rasputina and her triggers.

Except after damaging triggers happen before you remove the model from play if it was killed by the damage.

[CapnBloodbeard]

So, my understanding is that because the model isn't removed until triggers are resolved, then a trigger that says 'attack the model again' can take place?

Counterintuitive, but I can see how that works in the rules.

So would I be correct in saying that, if the attacker wanted, they could go through with that 2nd attack and have it be 'successful', even though no damage can be dealt?

In short, if the trigger on the 2nd attack said 'if the attack is successful, X happens', then X would happen even though this attack was against a dead, but not removed, model? 

[Adran]

12 hours ago, CapnBloodbeard said:

So, my understanding is that because the model isn't removed until triggers are resolved, then a trigger that says 'attack the model again' can take place?

Counterintuitive, but I can see how that works in the rules.

So would I be correct in saying that, if the attacker wanted, they could go through with that 2nd attack and have it be 'successful', even though no damage can be dealt?

In short, if the trigger on the 2nd attack said 'if the attack is successful, X happens', then X would happen even though this attack was against a dead, but not removed, model? 

The most obvious effect is Rasputina. Even if she kills the target with the first attack, she can trigger Overpower from that attack, and gets to cast at the target again. Whilst the Second attack will not be able to hurt the target as it is on 0 wounds, it can still cause blasts which will hurt other nearby models.

And yes, any after succeeding triggers would also happen, although any after damaging triggers would not, because you have not damaged the Target. 

[Clement]

2 hours ago, Adran said:

The most obvious effect is Rasputina. Even if she kills the target with the first attack, she can trigger Overpower from that attack, and gets to cast at the target again. Whilst the Second attack will not be able to hurt the target as it is on 0 wounds, it can still cause blasts which will hurt other nearby models.

And yes, any after succeeding triggers would also happen, although any after damaging triggers would not, because you have not damaged the Target. 

Wait, if a model is currently on 0 wounds, it's incapable of taking additional damage so after damaging triggers don't work?  Got a reference on that?   I'd agree she hasn't "killed" the target since the target is already dead, but I'm not sure about the damage thing.

[Bengt]

3 hours ago, Clement said:

Wait, if a model is currently on 0 wounds, it's incapable of taking additional damage so after damaging triggers don't work?  Got a reference on that?   I'd agree she hasn't "killed" the target since the target is already dead, but I'm not sure about the damage thing.

I think it's based on the "can't go to negative wounds" FAQ entry (#31), so nothing explicit.

[Clement]

6 minutes ago, Bengt said:

I think it's based on the "can't go to negative wounds" FAQ entry (#31), so nothing explicit.

Huh...  between that and FAQ 17, I guess that makes sense?  There's something oddly troubling about that interaction, not sure what though.  I wonder what scenario got us to faq 31.

[Bengt]

Just now, Clement said:

Huh...  between that and FAQ 17, I guess that makes sense?  There's something oddly troubling about that interaction, not sure what though.  I wonder what scenario got us to faq 31.

Dunno, Death Defying maybe since it heals Colette when she would have died, so if you could go negative from a big hit she would have less Wd after or even still die.

[BigHammer]

No. The model dies (and is removed from play) before you get to take the second attack. This has come up before re: Rasputina and her triggers.