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Broken Balance


cptRamires

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11 hours ago, cryion said:

Valid question that I have no answer to. But I think in this case the point is rather that you still disrupt the plans of the Viks and therefore make their activation control relatively useless that first turn.

Also, isnt this exactly what we are talking about? Adapt, react, be clever - and it becomes more a game of skill rather than a game about the power level of individual models.

To me the argument had meandered into if the Viks with the rat engine was harder to counter and more unenjoyable to face than Yasinori. I doubt I will ever change my stance on that.

Schlong can't charge when engaged so I could see multiple ways of stopping his approach but doesn't reallymatter to the bigger discussion hereand we seem to agree that the Vikd shoulfn't have rats at their disposal.

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1 hour ago, cryion said:

I dont feel its necessary to kill both Viks. If Blood goes down without doing much thats more than enough turn 1. You assume ML+2, so at least one other sister needs to be close enough which makes Misdirect that more annoying.
Between Kamaitachi, Yu, Emissary there are enough pushes to also get your crew forward. And if Shen Long stands in the middle of your ranks you wont exactly walk into the enemy half of the table either with all your forces.

Recalled is not the pin that holds his whole defense together.

Listen, Im not saying its easy and Im not saying anything is un-avoidable. Just saying that activation control can be handled by a good player. Is it good that rat-engine is gone for anything but Hamelin? 100%!

I've never seen a game between a top tier Shen Long player and a top tier Viks player. I'd enjoy watching that very much. ;)

Yeah, but then you're taking wonder weasel instead of Peasants which doesn't seem like a great choice unless you know for certain your playing into the Viks(because Shenlong charging any other outcast master just seems like an exorcise in futility).

There's definitely more I can say on this but I feel it would warrant it's own thread as we've already gone pretty off-topic as is.

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45 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

To me the argument had meandered into if the Viks with the rat engine was harder to counter and more unenjoyable to face than Yasinori.

34 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

There's definitely more I can say on this but I feel it would warrant it's own thread as we've already gone pretty off-topic as is.

Yes, these statements are true. I'm pretty close to locking the thread for being off-topic at this point. Does anyone have anything they want to add to the original discussion?

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@@Kadeton

The topic is "broken balance" and more specifically that the Yasinori break the entire game by being out of this world in power level. Any models which are percieved as unbalanced, both errata'd and unerrata'd, would be considered arguments relevant to the discussion of which category the Yasinori belong in.

The greater arguments on game balance and skill etc. are also related since we need to establish a common basis for what breaks thr game.

From a moderator's point of view this thread may be a hassle and warrant a lock if people keep making it personal but I'm not sure how far off-topic we really are. :)

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@Kadeton I indeed would like to add my opinion. I saw quite a few topics and FB posts on Yasunori being way over the top... looking at the book I just could not see it.

So when I now finally got the minature from the Black friday sale I tried him out... small test size since the stuff arrived just a bit ago. However for me the result is pretty obvious. He is on paar with other similar expensive Beaters. I think Nekima is not the best comparisson the right one would be Howard in my mind.

To me this are similar costed beater models with different uses. Yasunori is designed to melt groups of weakers models (minions, stuff without arm etc.) While Howard is a Hench master Killer. They are both specialized for that. MI7 is the stat you want to kill a big fatty, + flips native are good on a lot of attacks to keep the hand drain lower. Both have Support actions to get them to do their thing, howard with nimble and venting, Yasunori with Great Sage. Howard has the Master killing dmg track and instagib trigger while Yasunori kann reliably dish out a lot of attacks with less efforts. Both have access to similar powerful upgrades Recalled vs Imbued.

Looking at their stat lines we can see they are both excellent in their role, this is how you should handle them, and how they need to be used. For example I had my first game and charged Yasunori into a bunch of Minions with Asami, it felt like the Wrath of God raining down. Feeling invincible the secound game I got tempted to Charge a Rail Golem, both of them failed to kill each other with Yasunori taking the worse beating. He does not kill everything, however he is very good at doing what he is designed for. Really strong but not OP. I actually think it is a well designed top end Beater. I think this is also true for Howard.

Now why are so many people so damn angry. I think it is obvious. They have to plan for it. By now everybody accepts, if you play into Arcanist you have a plan to handle Howard or you give up Quick Murder, if you play into Neverborne you have a plan for Nekima or you give up Hunting Party. You play into outcast, you don´t pick a crew getting oneshot by Blood needing to bunch up in 2" radius...

Playing against thunders there never was a beater with dmg output you had to consider when playing against them. So people are pissed because they need to rethink the way they build lists against thunders.

A model of this point cost needs to have an focused approach and not cover all corners. Otherwise you end up like Archie a Gimmick in one Masters list because the Ice Cream on your Model looks dope. If howard with Machine puppet and debt or Min Dmg 5 is not op, than Yasunori with fast isn´t either. Comparing him against Archie is also wrong he should be compared against the most competitive similar model that is accepted as very good but acceptable for the health of the game... that is for me Howard, and Yasunori fullfills a different roll similarily well. I think he is exactly in the right spot.

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