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Are Will O' The Wisps too strong?

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I've used them a few times in my group and in every game they've done really well and also been a pretty negative experience for my opponent.

I've run them with Zoraida + The Spawn Mother and they've done a lot of work summoning Gupps and Voodoo dolls with their (1) action to take another Neverborn models (2) action. I've also used them to Animal Shape into my opponents crew to unbury Bad Juju because they have the swampfiend tag.

At first I argued that they were released to buff Zoraida (and they were) but they seem a bit too efficient for their cost, even outside of their (1) action to copy a (2) action they are pretty decent 3ss minions and I used one pretty effectively with Titania while not using Ever Changing Form at all.

It seems like they're pretty good models even without their bonkers copy a (2) action ability.

Just wanted to see if other groups have had problems with Wisps and if there is some counter to them that I'm not thinking of.

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I have used them quite a bit with a few masters: They are excellent for their cost however they are very much reliant on their positioning to do what they do and do not posses much in the way of defensive capabilities.

My opponents have learned to kill them or make it difficult for me to accurately position them by controlling LOS lanes or making it so if I want to place a VooDoo Doll I do so knowing that I will likely loose the Wisp.

As for Animal Shape-> Bad JuJu: killing them is certainly a choice at that point and it seems like a very telegraphed one: at least in my opinion. I would find a Gupp to be much more effective at that role as if left to it's own devices it can run some schemes.

Good for their Cost? Yes. Over-Powered? I do not believe so. I will say that control elements and those sorts of sideways interactions do often appear to be negative play experiences to a lot of players: especially when someone is seeing them for the first time as they can feel a bit overwhelming and "Gotcha!".

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2 hours ago, necroon said:

I will say that control elements and those sorts of sideways interactions do often appear to be negative play experiences to a lot of players: especially when someone is seeing them for the first time as they can feel a bit overwhelming and "Gotcha!".

I've noticed this quite a bit for anything that relies on control, especially with people that don't have a background in games that focus on control. Both times I played Ironsides into Lady J in tournaments, the Lady J player was relatively new and expecting a straight brawl. They certainly did not expect Lady J to end up drawn into and killed by Ironsides' crew shortly after completing her activation. The first time I played Brewmaster in a campaign-competition game, my opponent did not expect his summoning master to lose all printed suits in all actions while a Dawn Serpent chased down the surviving scheme runners.
Solid control pieces against players expecting a brawl (especially new players) will often feel like "Gotcha!" games.

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I think that they are OP for their cost but that is balanced by the fact that they boost models that are underpowered. Without the copy (2)Action thing Wisps are really great. With it they are too good IMO but the models that lend them the (2)Actions like the Spawn Mother really aren't good enough on their own and even Zoraida who is sorta OK without Wisps doesn't still eclipse, e.g., Collodi with the help of the Wisps.

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On ‎12‎/‎30‎/‎2016 at 3:29 AM, Math Mathonwy said:

I think that they are OP for their cost but that is balanced by the fact that they boost models that are underpowered. Without the copy (2)Action thing Wisps are really great. With it they are too good IMO but the models that lend them the (2)Actions like the Spawn Mother really aren't good enough on their own and even Zoraida who is sorta OK without Wisps doesn't still eclipse, e.g., Collodi with the help of the Wisps.

For starter's I think its hilarious that a Gremlin player is telling ANYONE that their stuff is "OP for their cost".... looking at you here (for starter's) stuff piglets.

That being said, I also think he's right on the money. They are REALLY good, but they were almost universally meant to help flagging models do better. Almost every single 2 tactical action in the faction is on a model that most find underwhelming (Spawn Mother, Poltergeist, Zoraida, Kade, etc.). They are useful for anyone who throws out WP duels since they drop a scheme when an enemy fails. I think they are one of the best models Neverborn got in wave 4, they fix Zoraida and a whole host of other models while having utility and use for everyone else.

They also have no engagement range, and are super easy to kill. So I really don't see the "OP" problem. They are pure awesome.

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56 minutes ago, JarnabyBones said:

For starter's I think its hilarious that a Gremlin player is telling ANYONE that their stuff is "OP for their cost".... looking at you here (for starter's) stuff piglets.

That being said, I also think he's right on the money. They are REALLY good, but they were almost universally meant to help flagging models do better. Almost every single 2 tactical action in the faction is on a model that most find underwhelming (Spawn Mother, Poltergeist, Zoraida, Kade, etc.). They are useful for anyone who throws out WP duels since they drop a scheme when an enemy fails. I think they are one of the best models Neverborn got in wave 4, they fix Zoraida and a whole host of other models while having utility and use for everyone else.

They also have no engagement range, and are super easy to kill. So I really don't see the "OP" problem. They are pure awesome.

Minor correction, they do have a 1" engagement range on their base 4 MI against willpower. While they are relatively easy to kill, their threat range when played with Zoraida is pretty large (17" if you account for their base size) and they don't have to be in LOS of the enemies crew to drop a Voodoo Doll on them so they can be pretty tricky for your opponent to get at. I really like what Will O' The Wisps bring to Titania's crew (with their aura they can allow her to heal herself from scheme markers in her activation) but their massive threat range in a Zoraida crew and the potential number of Hem attempts (4 in separate activations if Zoraida (2) actions as well even without considering possible Obeys seems to really overwhelm my opponents condition removal) can almost seem unblockable.

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Each model can only be targeted once per turn from a Wisp.  So only one Wisp can pop out a voodoo doll each turn (and Zoraida Maybe a second).

While Zoraida becomes pretty good with them and it's easily possible to kill one model a turn the whole setup is build on the Wisp's (and Iggy in our tests), removing one of those usually hurts them pretty hard and isn't to hard. The placement game is very important here, you have to get your opponent to overextended. Killing by condition isn't always helpfull either. The zoraida & wisps crew isn't easy to play or play against but I don't rate it any harder then to play against Sonja, rasputin or perdita.

The only thing I would've wished for may be the addition of a moderate target number (likely 7)  for the copy action. 

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Wisps are amazing. I've been running them for the past month or so and they have either been or have been close to being the MVP for each game. Oddly though I've found that their 'Call of the wisp' gets more use than the 2ap copy. 

That being said I've tried the 'build-a-bear' crew for the last few games and had a teddy out on turn 2 in each.

But casting 'Call of the wisp' on a model (even the crews fastest) and then copying Animal Shape to place 15" away is awesome. Especially if you place so that the enemy model has to walk into engagement with something they really don't want to be next to (I'm looking at you teddy).

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While I get that wisps are awesome in Zordia (and spawn mother) lists where else would they be useful ? Also in regards to lure like ability (because opponent can always elect not to move and only shoot) does it mean that he MUST take the shortest route possible even if it meant taking damage ? (like 1" of dangerous ground marker of Emissary ?)

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Yes.

Kade and Teddy can get use out of a Wisp for "where is teddy?" (21ss for the package)

Spawnmother loves to let the Wisp's take the annoying breeding of their spawn (12ss package)

A Wisp can take Poltergeists Paranoia Marker Action (8ss) in Pandora Crews

Besides Zoraida there is no other Nvb Master with 2 AP.

I think these are all possible combos, besides flurry on various Models  but that's just pathetic ;)

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42 minutes ago, Seryjniak said:

While I get that wisps are awesome in Zordia (and spawn mother) lists where else would they be useful ? Also in regards to lure like ability (because opponent can always elect not to move and only shoot) does it mean that he MUST take the shortest route possible even if it meant taking damage ? (like 1" of dangerous ground marker of Emissary ?)

Yes, you can force them to jump out of 10" high towers even if it kills them. Wisps only force them to walk if they choose to take the walk action themselves though so it isn't as powerful as a lure.

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Also the Doppelganger can copy their (1) action and get pretty much anywhere on the board with 15" from copied Will O' The Wisp action copying Zoraida's Animal Shape and then taking two walks (if you got the trigger to immediately take the wisp's action). You can take a Doppelganger instead of a second or third Wisp and keep some flexibility while hiring arguably the best 7 cost in the game.

 

52 minutes ago, Seryjniak said:

While I get that wisps are awesome in Zordia (and spawn mother) lists where else would they be useful ? Also in regards to lure like ability (because opponent can always elect not to move and only shoot) does it mean that he MUST take the shortest route possible even if it meant taking damage ? (like 1" of dangerous ground marker of Emissary ?)

Even without their ability to copy (2) actions Wisps are still really good for activation control and for scoring certain schemes and strategies (because they are minions they count for most of the positioning based objectives like interference, extraction and public demonstration) and with their 3" aura to place a scheme marker in base contact with an enemy that fails a willpower duel they're great for giving Titania a way to heal off of her own actions because it counts as the Wisp placing the scheme markers for her Aura of healing off of scheme markers. 

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I ran Zoraida in a fixed master tournament this weekend and the Wisps were great.

In my first game I ran a swampfiend crew and had gupps out every turn. I also found that Animal Shape and Call of the wisp is great. At one stage a shikome was running down one of my gupps who was placing markers for Leave your mark. The wisp 'called' it then animal shaped 15" in the opposite direction. Straight towards the spawn mother and McTavish.

My second game I managed to get a couple of gupps out before my opponent killed the wisps. I also 'called' a few models who were in charge range, keeping most of my crew safe for a turn. One thing to note though is that 'calling' a model that can leap isn't always so good.

My third game I went with build-a-bear which unfortunately was cut short when Seamus and his annoying little copycat wiped Zoraida off the board in turn 1. (decaying aura on Seamus is just nasty. 8 wounds and you can't stone for prevention!). Though the wisps performed admirably, moving things about with call and getting their attack off.

 

Afterwards I realised that for a Zoraida crew Wisps have become something of a crutch. Their cost and ability just make them so good. I wouldn't say overpowered, but definitely an amazing piece.

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There have been a lot of posts from people who have used the Wisps (understandably, as we're in the Neverborn subforum) but I was hoping to get some more input from people who've been on the other side of the table.

Did they feel too strong, how did you deal with them and were they unpleasant to play against?

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I've played against  Feagaur and 2 Wisps and I didn't feel it was too strong. You just walk towards the model to end the condition, that is not a terrible trade unless you were primed to charge something and hadn't prepared for the possibility that it might shut you down. 

You are still free to use Ca, Sh, Ml actions so they are no more unpleasant to play against than playing someone who can hand out slow to stifle the charge. 

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I've had various games against wisps zoraida. The Wisp's turn her up pretty good. But if you think a bit about their synergys and how to mess them up they aren't that hard to handle. Know their thread ranges, try to stay out of them or out of LOS and hit them with a half decent cast or two half decent other attacks and call it a day.

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On Tuesday, January 10, 2017 at 8:13 PM, feagaur said:

I ran Zoraida in a fixed master tournament this weekend and the Wisps were great.

In my first game I ran a swampfiend crew and had gupps out every turn. I also found that Animal Shape and Call of the wisp is great. At one stage a shikome was running down one of my gupps who was placing markers for Leave your mark. The wisp 'called' it then animal shaped 15" in the opposite direction. Straight towards the spawn mother and McTavish.

My second game I managed to get a couple of gupps out before my opponent killed the wisps. I also 'called' a few models who were in charge range, keeping most of my crew safe for a turn. One thing to note though is that 'calling' a model that can leap isn't always so good.

My third game I went with build-a-bear which unfortunately was cut short when Seamus and his annoying little copycat wiped Zoraida off the board in turn 1. (decaying aura on Seamus is just nasty. 8 wounds and you can't stone for prevention!). Though the wisps performed admirably, moving things about with call and getting their attack off.

 

Afterwards I realised that for a Zoraida crew Wisps have become something of a crutch. Their cost and ability just make them so good. I wouldn't say overpowered, but definitely an amazing piece.

Seriously? Models haven't even hit retail and they're already crutches? :(

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I do not see Will o' the Wisps as a crutch in Zoraida's crews, more like a patch.

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They are intended to push Zoraida into a more competitive play area. Of course they are Crutches. Those are essential Zoraida-Errata in Model Form. 

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4 hours ago, Torsul said:

They are intended to push Zoraida into a more competitive play area. Of course they are Crutches. Those are essential Zoraida-Errata in Model Form. 

That seems to back the patch argument instead of the crutch one.

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In my opinion a crutch is something you rely on because, even if you could succeed by other means, you just pursue the road that requires the least effort because you're used to it. A patch strikes me as a measure that allows something to work as it really is intended and without which you could not meet the same measure of efficiency. 

It doesn't really matter at the end of the day, just clarifying what I meant.

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