January Errata - Arcanist Edition

[Jordon]

In case some of you may have missed it, there is a massive errata that just dropped that should shake the meta quite a bit.

 

Arcanist changes:

Colette: Prompt is now once per turn per model.

Ironsides: Gained a Tome to her Defense.

Union Miners: Improvised Weapon gained +1 Range. Modified Welder increased to Burning +2. False Claim only discards a Scheme Marker if both are still in play, instead of one Marker no matter what; restriction on only being able to be used when they can Interact changed to only being able to be used when unengaged.

 

What do you guys think!?

[Douglas Scoundrels]

Super excited for Toni to see some love. 

I used miners successfully supporting Willie, Envy, and Large Arachnids. Now they're even more useful. Correct me if I'm wrong, but False Claim now ignores Chatty, yes?

[Fictor]

R.I.P. Colette, one min of silence please...

[Tris]

2 hours ago, Fictor said:

R.I.P. Colette, one min of silence please...

Oh it's for sure no rest in peace for her!

It's not as if she lost any of her other abilities/actions...

[sinistercats]

2 minutes ago, Tris said:

Oh it's for sure no rest in peace for her!

It's not as if she lost any of her other abilities/actions...

Agreed! There's still lots of spring in her step. 

[Jordon]

I'm so happy about the Colette change as i'm sick of seeing her tactic's amount to "prompt Howard three times and call it a day". Now it will require more of a balanced list and things operating in tandem as oppose to a single model doing everything.

I feel this will have a learning period, but will ultimately lead to a better experience for both players. She's certainly not now somehow under powered.

[spooky_squirrel]

2 hours ago, Fictor said:

R.I.P. Colette, one min of silence please...

Think of it this way: a lot of people take Colette, Cassandra, Howard Langston (Miss Step), and prompt Howard Langston for 7 attacks without kicking off reactivate, with Nimble/Flurry and {push/attack} x4. It was too good, especially when using Mechanical Doves and the Mobile Toolkit to dial up Howard Langston.

They would pay no attention to the other things that Colette can do. Now they have to. This is a good thing. This is like flipping Red Joker on a damage flip that ignores damage reduction and prevention good.

23 minutes ago, Jordon said:

I'm so happy about the Colette change as i'm sick of seeing her tactic's amount to "prompt Howard three times and call it a day". Now it will require more of a balanced list and things operating in tandem as oppose to a single model doing everything.

I feel this will have a learning period, but will ultimately lead to a better experience for both players. She's certainly not now somehow under powered.

This bit here from Jordon is spot on. Colette's potential is absurd in the hands of an experienced player. Colette/Cassandra getting those attacks out of Hank seems absurd, but this is a game where killing things isn't required to win in most cases.

If you need an idea of what direction to look: minions and showgirls, with 1-2 beaters that aren't either if you're needing an elite killing crew. She can still prompt 3x in a turn, but now it has to be 3 separate targets (4, if Cassandra's Prompting), but now those prompts are for getting more work out of more people.
I believe it's on Schemes&Stones: a funny bit with Colette and a handful of Silent Ones. Each Silent One walks up, (0) to drop a scheme marker, takes a shot if a target is in range, otherwise, focuses. Colette goes last, once your opponent has moved stuff up within the threat range of the Silent Ones who have already gone. Colette uses her upgrade's 2AP action that lets every model you have on the table discard a nearby scheme marker to take a 1AP action in the order you choose. I've been working a variant of this that uses Ice Dancers and a Bite of Winter boost from an Ice Gamin, with Luther leaping around the table drawing fire for being big and ugly.

With the changes to Union Miner, there's potential for getting even more work done that involves scheme markers. A 5 stone minion can score you all 3 VP for Detonate the Charges or Set Up by itself: as a minion, it can (0) to drop a scheme marker because of Colette, then false claim with its remaining AP to drop two pairs that will lose one marker apiece during upkeep, but still leave 3 markers on the table. Prompt the Union Miner for the push and to do it again. You have 7 scheme markers on the table out of one model + prompt, in a crew that uses scheme markers to get work done. To include getting extra AP.

 

Start trying out stuff like this. She can get a serious amount of work done, even with just peons and minions.

[Fog]

Some Ironsides math:

Hank flurries on Toni. Average damage on hit is 4 and change on negative flip. Stone for reduction, average 2 and change, gain adrenaline. You end with 6 damage, 3 adrenaline, and you've dealt about 6 back. You activate, gain 4th adrenaline, finish Langston, heal 4. If you're playing the emissary, 5. Regen mage, you're full. 

If you get a clean line on any key model with a low minimum, your lure becomes a better attack than swinging. You get up to six chances to make your enemy hit you, dealing 2/3/4 back, and at the end of it all you heal back up--if their minimum is 1, you essentially took nothing.

[katadder]

31 minutes ago, Fog said:

Some Ironsides math:

Hank flurries on Toni. Average damage on hit is 4 and change on negative flip. Stone for reduction, average 2 and change, gain adrenaline. You end with 6 damage, 3 adrenaline, and you've dealt about 6 back. You activate, gain 4th adrenaline, finish Langston, heal 4. If you're playing the emissary, 5. Regen mage, you're full. 

If you get a clean line on any key model with a low minimum, your lure becomes a better attack than swinging. You get up to six chances to make your enemy hit you, dealing 2/3/4 back, and at the end of it all you heal back up--if their minimum is 1, you essentially took nothing.

adrenaline only heals 1 at the end of the turn, then lower condition by 1. so not quite as good as you think, unless you have the upgrade to lose it all to heal

[Fog]

I was assuming the upgrade. I should have stated as such.

[Cadaverousbirth]

I just bought Colette, mainly for a Performer for Nellie, but there she is. I wasn't planning on playing her for a while just because of what I've heard about the three Prompt turns which sounded cheesy and boring. Now with this change it draws more of my attention because of her other abilities being able to carry more weight over a game versus just the one being constantly used. Like the Levi cuddle, this actually makes me want to play another strong - without being ridiculous - master. Yay!

[Bengt]

1 hour ago, Fog said:

Some Ironsides math:

Hank flurries on Toni. Average damage on hit is 4 and change on negative flip. Stone for reduction, average 2 and change, gain adrenaline. You end with 6 damage, 3 adrenaline, and you've dealt about 6 back. You activate, gain 4th adrenaline, finish Langston, heal 4. If you're playing the emissary, 5. Regen mage, you're full. 

If you get a clean line on any key model with a low minimum, your lure becomes a better attack than swinging. You get up to six chances to make your enemy hit you, dealing 2/3/4 back, and at the end of it all you heal back up--if their minimum is 1, you essentially took nothing.

Average SS prevention for a ~4.5 damage hit is ~1.86, so ~2.64 damage to Toni. Average for "Good Shot My Turn" is ~1.85 after Armour + 1. The Brass Knucke damage will most likely be on  so more like ~1.5 after Armour +1. It also assumes that every single attack is going through, sure 7 vs 5 will hit most of the time (~68% before cheating IIRC), but it happening six times in a row is not nearly as likely (~10%, and if say you raise the hit chance per attack to 80% by some cheating, you are still only looking at 26% chance of all six hitting).

As for "You looking at me?" I don't think the opponent is going to be that eager to hit Toni, he is definitely not going to cheat to hit Toni (at least not after first one...) and might even cheat to miss. And you'll have to win the initial Wp duel while spending stones/cards to get the mask for "Next!". All in all lots of effort for perhaps not that much reward.

While this change made Toni more interesting it's not huge and does nothing outside the Ml vs Df scenario.

[retnab]

@Fog: I hadn't thought of how much more Adrenaline you can reliably get while in melee, taking Frontline Leadership might be worth it for the strong heals now!    I typically play an Ironsides slingshot (rather than HPM) based list so getting her into the melee has not been a problem.

As for the other changes, I don't really play Colette but Prompt being so good was a big reason why (didn't feel exciting). I may have to give her a shot in Jan and see how she is now.   The Union Miner change is great and makes him such an even better support piece. You can now False Claim, have a Large Arachnid eat one of the two Scheme Markers for his 's, and the other Scheme Marker stays! Plus with the Burning boost he can make Burning stick more reliably on the enemies or can pump Carlos and the Rail Golem up faster. Overall 10/10, would errata again.

[spooky_squirrel]

5 hours ago, Cadaverousbirth said:

I just bought Colette, mainly for a Performer for Nellie, but there she is. I wasn't planning on playing her for a while just because of what I've heard about the three Prompt turns which sounded cheesy and boring. Now with this change it draws more of my attention because of her other abilities being able to carry more weight over a game versus just the one being constantly used. Like the Levi cuddle, this actually makes me want to play another strong - without being ridiculous - master. Yay!

This is why I'm actually excited by this as well. I've liked Colette for all the other things that she does, but I know that when people see her at tournaments they see triple-prompt Hank (or other hitter, we do have others) almost exclusively. I've found that she's most fun for me with more focus on amplifying minions and being super slippery. Between her and Angelica (Practiced Production caddy extraordinaire), a Colette crew can be super slippery and scheme-y, with the ability to fight/kill as needed (Cassandra, Carlos, beater of choice). Prior to the cuddle people played Colette crews as super killy, with the ability to be slippery and scheme-y.

[Fog]

4 hours ago, Bengt said:

Numbers!

Your math is definitely better than my 6 am insomniac rambling math.  I still think we will see an upsurge in her use, her power level, and I really think six months from now people will be complaining.  Not everyone, mind you, but she'll go from "how do I play her?" to "What tricks can I use against her?"

[spooky_squirrel]

1 hour ago, Fog said:

Your math is definitely better than my 6 am insomniac rambling math.  I still think we will see an upsurge in her use, her power level, and I really think six months from now people will be complaining.  Not everyone, mind you, but she'll go from "how do I play her?" to "What tricks can I use against her?"

She'll definitely see more table time. Three of the Arcanist player in my local/extended meta (extended includes the tournament players from 40 miles up the road), including me, will play Ironsides at tournaments even before the baked in Df versus Ml trigger--so people are already thinking along the lines of "what do I do against her" just to avoid being blindsided.

6 hours ago, Bengt said:

As for "You looking at me?" I don't think the opponent is going to be that eager to hit Toni, he is definitely not going to cheat to hit Toni (at least not after first one...) and might even cheat to miss. And you'll have to win the initial Wp duel while spending stones/cards to get the mask for "Next!". All in all lots of effort for perhaps not that much reward.

While this change made Toni more interesting it's not huge and does nothing outside the Ml vs Df scenario.

This is part of the Ironsides control package. At the very least, I'm top-decking a card away from them. If they cheat to miss to avoid the trigger damage, it's taking a card from their hand. If they cheat to hit, sweet, I'll stone to prevent if it's 3+ damage, which leaves me with reasonable expectation of taking 1-2 damage, gaining adrenaline, and getting some "free" damage against them. The real benefit I see is that there's no temptation at all to stone for the trigger (and no "sh*t, forgot to stone" moments), which prunes off a portion of the Ironsides graph of activation/response options and makes her slightly easier to pick up and play.
An opponent facing Ironsides will have to rely on something other than card and stone resource control to stop that trigger if they care about it at all--but that's something that my meta's already doing because of her presence here (and the fact that all three of us use her in different ways even into the same strat/scheme pool).

[Jordon]

It seems like while it's definitely a boost for Ironsides, it's probably also more of a clarification in a sense. I think people get caught up on trying to play her as a beater and she simply doesn't fit that role very well. This change is not an overhaul or even really all that big in my opinion. In fact I always attach "bring it" as an upgrade so I was generally getting the trigger most of the time anyway. 

This change really emphasizes her role in my mind as a more control oriented master. Offence through defence and a high ability of disruption. I love the idea of just having Ironsides stand around mouthing off at people and exchanging punches. 

[Bengt]

46 minutes ago, spooky_squirrel said:

This is part of the Ironsides control package. At the very least, I'm top-decking a card away from them. If they cheat to miss to avoid the trigger damage, it's taking a card from their hand. If they cheat to hit, sweet, I'll stone to prevent if it's 3+ damage, which leaves me with reasonable expectation of taking 1-2 damage, gaining adrenaline, and getting some "free" damage against them. The real benefit I see is that there's no temptation at all to stone for the trigger (and no "sh*t, forgot to stone" moments), which prunes off a portion of the Ironsides graph of activation/response options and makes her slightly easier to pick up and play.

My main objection was to it being an easy six "Good Shot, My Turn". Sure, it's going to be more worthwhile use of her AP than Brass Knuckles in more situations than before, but there are some hoops and resources involved in getting more than three per activation. Challenge the Crowd gives some flexibility in the being hit department since you can pick low cards if you want from a  flip.

[spooky_squirrel]

Just now, Bengt said:

My main objection was to it being an easy six "Good Shot, My Turn". Sure, it's going to be more worthwhile use of her AP than Brass Knuckles in more situations than before, but there are some hoops and resources involved in getting more than three per activation. Challenge the Crowd gives some flexibility in the being hit department since you can pick low cards if you want from a  flip.

Oh, yeah. Definitely. If your opponent keeps hitting her with something that is suckered in and triggering that GSMT that isn't looking to kill her before she activates, they're pushing models and flipping cards more than they are playing. Even Howard Langston shouldn't be flurrying against Ironsides unless he is shooting for his decapitation trigger. His AP would be better spent killing the Oxfordian Mage support line, especially since he's so mobile.

[Mxbedlam]

I just wish we had a more reliable way to shoot into engagements with Ironsides. I'd totally run Mech rider and have it puke out spiders to latch onto anything she's got tied up and then shoot into their melee.

[Ludvig]

On 2016-12-26 at 2:35 AM, Mrbedlam said:

I just wish we had a more reliable way to shoot into engagements with Ironsides. I'd totally run Mech rider and have it puke out spiders to latch onto anything she's got tied up and then shoot into their melee.

Anna or McTavish could do that for you. I think you just answered why arcanists don't have easier access to that kind of ability

[spooky_squirrel]

1 hour ago, Ludvig said:

Anna or McTavish could do that for you. I think you just answered why arcanists don't have easier access to that kind of ability

Which is funny, because it's one of the base attacks on the very guy who can flood the field with those Steam Arachnids.

The other place we can potentially get it without a merc tax is Sandeep--who is less likely to have spiders on the table.

[Ludvig]

17 minutes ago, spooky_squirrel said:

Which is funny, because it's one of the base attacks on the very guy who can flood the field with those Steam Arachnids.

The other place we can potentially get it without a merc tax is Sandeep--who is less likely to have spiders on the table.

Masters are designed to have powerful synergies with their in-theme crew that are often unique to them. One master having that is not what I mean when I talk about easy access in arcanists.

[spooky_squirrel]

It's also not really easy access, which is why I was getting a bit of a chuckle. Ironsides will only benefit from Ramos' attacks targeting her deathball in team games. Otherwise, we're heavily reliant on things that target Df without having the projectile icon to exploit having a controller trapping people next to spiders, or hiring Anna and/or McTavish.

[Bengt]

Silent Ones doesn't have  on their attack.