2017 Errata - Dawn of Lucius ^^

[JDAntoine]

2 hours ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

 They are not going to make a 6ss minion have an auto paralyze attack that can be used on a charge an attack stat of 6.

Nobody seems to suggest both. However Ca 6 OR rng 2 for melee is something Id test. By large because I dont think either would massively impact the health of the game but simply update a very awesome looking model and give Lady Justice and Tara crews a boost, which isnt a gamebreaker either.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Ummm yes it is available for charges. The only requirements for actions you can use on a charge is that they are an attack action and have the claw icon. Pine Box is both an attack action and has the claw icon. Therefore you may use pine box on the charge.

[JDAntoine]

7 minutes ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

Ummm yes it is available for charges. The only requirements for actions you can use on a charge is that they are an attack action and have the claw icon. Pine Box is both an attack action and has the claw icon. Therefore you may use pine box on the charge.

Ca 6 or Rng 2 isnt available, is what I mean.

Do you include DM in your 2017 build?

If so, with what?

[admiralvorkraft]

The updated Elite Training buff applies to DMs (and Lawyers, removing that annoying anti-synergy) so one will continue to be a staple in my Lucius crews.

[Ludvig]

A marshal that is obeyed/placed/lured after boxing a model is extremely potent for 6ss. They're possibly on the squishier side but we just gained recruiters who make them near unkillable. Lady J has the scales that lets you draw more cards to have them survive longer so in their thematic crew I would say they can now function very well. With McCabe you can make them reactivate with  nimble to threaten a box really far out and then escape to safety. Lucius can easily command them and then trade places to get them quite far back again. 

I'm pretty sure the box trick surfaced more than a year after the marshals were playtested so they were deemed.fine in playtesting.

[JDAntoine]

@Ludvig Correct me if I'm wrong but every model in the game that is obeyed/placed/lured becomes extremely potent. In addition Scales of Justice to me has never really proven to be that magnificent and McCabe can reactivate anything to threaten something and eventually escape to savety, the same logic applies to Lucius aswell.

I'm also totally certain that the box trick surfaced later, at the same time I'm also pretty certain that the Death Marshal will see even less crews in 2017 as it did in 2016. As a result I wouldn't be surpised or oppossed against a re-evaluation of the model. Not having specific models in your competative crew is not a real issue but when I look at wave 3 and 4 I see the slightest of power increase and that more or less still keeps the DM on the bench.

The DM is allright but what I am saying is that his biggest popular competative trick 'Papa Box' dissapeared. So it leads me to the same question I asked @Fetid Strumpet, where do you play him in your 2017 competative crew?

I just recieved another reason to run more Witchling Thralls and lost a reason to run Death Marshal Recruiters because I lost a reason to run Death Marshals because of Papa Loco's change. What I am seeing is that the Guild Marshal type, a very important type, overall got a small diminish because of how much these types rely on each other. Perhaps I'm wrong, I hope I'm wrong . But fact remains that this is only relevant to Guild Marshal heavy builds but if Lucius crews where on the bottom of the Guild before I'm slightly worried that Lady J crews are now on the bottom. By large because nothing changed in a positive way for them. 

Edit: TLDR; I'm not worried about the changes or upset, just stating I personally lost a massive reason to run DM's in a crew.
Keep in mind, DM is not the only model who can burry models in the Guild either. 
 

[Ludvig]

3 minutes ago, JDAntoine said:

@Ludvig Correct me if I'm wrong but every model in the game that is obeyed/placed/lured becomes extremely potent. In addition Scales of Justice to me has never really proven to be that magnificent and McCabe can reactivate anything to threaten something and eventually escape to savety, the same logic applies to Lucius aswell.

Most 6ss models can't remove a master from the game permanently. Death Marshals can do just that even if most masters will be one or two points above them on the initial duel. There are a few models in the 10+ points range that tie the ca 5 with their wp and once you are in the box the marshal is at wp 6 (with a positive flip near McCabe or Lucius and a possible wp 8 from Francisco or up to wp 10 if married to Abuela in a Perdita list).

I mentioned obeys and the like because marshals are squishy so I meant that those abilities mitigate their main drawback by getting your marshals far away from threats after boxing something. Some masters and other models are nearly immortal so reactivating another 6ss model will not remove them from the game.

Just having an unactivated marshal threatening an area will mean most people are very reluctant to move within that threat range since they can't be sure that you don't hold a high enough card to box their master/10+ ss model. 

Regarding the scales: Drawing cards is very potent, the problem with the scales is that you need to have less cards in hand to do it. In tandem with a discard to survive anything I'd say that ability just got upped in power. Box a big scary model, cheating your highest cards. Drop a few cards to have your marshal survive several lethal attacks and then draw new cards that are either used to sutvive again or to cheat high.

[JDAntoine]

@Ludvig most 6ss can, actually, it just depends on how you activate, use cards and if opponents Masters have a specific weakness. The Wp 10 route sounds cool and all but in combination is a 20+ ss investment.

As asked before, do you run this in your crew? A question that has been dodged so far.

I would say that the AP boosting effects still lead to the same result with all other models, AP boosting gets stuff better. Logically. What didnt get better is removing your own models for benifits, in fact the largest reasons to do so again have been removed.

What you are suggesting is that Pine Boxing models is always an option. I dont agree with that and we logically had 2 abilities that where such an option removed.

[Ludvig]

18 minutes ago, JDAntoine said:

@Ludvig most 6ss can, actually, it just depends on how you activate, use cards and if opponents Masters have a specific weakness. The Wp 10 route sounds cool and all but in combination is a 20+ ss investment.

As asked before, do you run this in your crew? A question that has been dodged so far.

I would say that the AP boosting effects still lead to the same result with all other models, AP boosting gets stuff better. Logically. What didnt get better is removing your own models for benifits, in fact the largest reasons to do so again have been removed.

What you are suggesting is that Pine Boxing models is always an option. I dont agree with that and we logically had 2 abilities that where such an option removed.

I haven't been dodging the question I just missed it. I frequently run death marshals with Lucius and without Papa Loco.

I have also tried a couple of McCabe-Family lists where I skipped the buff due to inept positioning and just rammed Loco into a cluster of enemies by using a nimble, reactivating Death Marshal. Loco and his Marshal Taxi is also a prime candidate for el Mayor since people tend to want to kill him before he causes 17 damage to 2+ enemy models. The death marshal can be at df/wp 7 and have armour +2 in afairly standard McCabe list. That takes some pressure off other models.

Did you ever box Francisco to keep the buff up? I've never heard anyone do that. I also thought we all agreed that boxing Loco was a non-intended exploit that wasn't tested for so I don't see it as a staple guild tactic beingremovef but a beardy exploit finally being corrected.

[wizuriel]

I've used death Marshals to good effect with old Lucius and imagine they will be much stronger with him in his new version. Outside that though mainly used them in fun builds or only see them with Tara. 

I think with the recruiter they will still be useful with Lucius and lady J (Mainly cause lady J really likes the recruiter so the death Marshals didn't seem so expensive with her).

I think guild has much weaker models that need attention than death Marshals (cough all guardsman cough)

[Clockwork_Fish]

I really like what they did to the Scribe.  Even before they announced the errata I'd been planning to try out Lucius with my brand new pair of Witchling Thralls, and this guy makes that even better.  He can stand near them dropping scheme markers to give them extra actions or slap their opponents for Governor's Authority, all while providing +1 Df.

[Ludvig]

The new cheaper guardians near scribe protecti g and healing each other as well as Lucius making them hitand heal even more. Yes please! Df 7 with   and armor 

[Gnomezilla]

I'm still learning what death marshals do. Been taking mine into frame for murder pools to try and save myself those points. (Of course, the last time I tried it the target was Killjoy--if I had gotten him into the box, would I have still controlled his unbury condition or would he have popped out upon a death?)

The boost of guardians instead of many guardsmen is still puzzling me. The witchling handler/guild guard/sergeant fixes were simpler, even, unless I underestimate the difficulty of changing a stat line. Guild guard also come in a crew box so there's equal argument to prioritize them as well as guardians. Feels like future-proofing.

[Clockwork_Fish]

8 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

The new cheaper guardians near scribe protecti g and healing each other as well as Lucius making them hitand heal even more. Yes please! Df 7 with   and armor 

I can do one better, I think.  With Phiona's Right at Home ability, Scribe can bump her up to Def 8.  With her 40mm base and a Stone Pillar, she can effectively shield the Scribe from harm, so you won't have to worry about someone blasting off him onto her.  Throw in Frank, and you now have the game's only Defense 10 model.  Stick that next to an objective and your opponent will have a very hard time shifting it.

[LunarSol]

On 12/24/2016 at 6:45 AM, Cadaverousbirth said:

I think that's a big thing about perspective on model's strengths. Death Marshalls are Good but not Great.

Good but not great is probably the best answer.  The problem of course is the game has enough Great or better models that there isn't a lot of reason to take Good.

I'd also argue DMs are models that are better for the game being Great than Good as they are models with a mechanical and artistic niche.  Particularly in a faction that can come across a little more mundane than the others, I think its really valuable to have models that are as eye catching as the Death Marshals appearing with some regularity.

[Ludvig]

1 hour ago, LunarSol said:

Good but not great is probably the best answer.  The problem of course is the game has enough Great or better models that there isn't a lot of reason to take Good.

I'd also argue DMs are models that are better for the game being Great than Good as they are models with a mechanical and artistic niche.  Particularly in a faction that can come across a little more mundane than the others, I think its really valuable to have models that are as eye catching as the Death Marshals appearing with some regularity.

The problem with buffing the pinebox is that it's already a massive NPE to have your models disappear for newer players so what would you buff? I guess they could do with another wound to survive two weak hits but it's dangerous to buff models with such gamechanging abilities too much. Marked for death, frame for murder and take prisoner are already very easy to score with marshals in my opinion. A lot of the GG-16 schemes also require no models near them. A sturdy opponent can easily block that late turn because few models do 10+ damage in one activation (often needing to ignore armour or some other defense) but with a death marshal you can just box the offender. 

[trikk]

12 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

The problem with buffing the pinebox is that it's already a massive NPE to have your models disappear for newer players so what would you buff? I guess they could do with another wound to survive two weak hits but it's dangerous to buff models with such gamechanging abilities too much. Marked for death, frame for murder and take prisoner are already very easy to score with marshals in my opinion. A lot of the GG-16 schemes also require no models near them. A sturdy opponent can easily block that late turn because few models do 10+ damage in one activation (often needing to ignore armour or some other defense) but with a death marshal you can just box the offender. 

I`d probably up the Ml attack to 6 and give them some form of (0) action.

 

While I agree they are ok as-is I think giving the extra Oomph would make sense game-wise as they are great models that probably lured a lot of players to Malifaux.

[JDAntoine]

32 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

The problem with buffing the pinebox is that it's already a massive NPE to have your models disappear for newer players so what would you buff? 

The range on the Pine Box. Honestly does 1 feels more logical or 2? Simply based on the model Id say 2.

[JDAntoine]

8 hours ago, Ludvig said:

Did you ever box Francisco to keep the buff up? I've never heard anyone do that. I also thought we all agreed that boxing Loco was a non-intended exploit that wasn't tested for so I don't see it as a staple guild tactic beingremovef but a beardy exploit finally being corrected.

I didnt, but the change to Frank ist too relevant to what Im adressing. Both Loco, Frank and Austringer will continue to form Guilds staples, why would you try to exclude DMs from that? Lore states them as the top league of Lady J, lore states us Lady J effectively deals with Undead problems...

I cant say it was clearly not designed that way either, if it really wasnt they could have changed the DM 2 years ago :). It was that the same list won Nova twice with the same build that lead to Frank, Loco and even Rooster changes.

As results show us, Guild isnt top league anywhere and this change most certainly put us back a notch. 

Im not upset because I like the changes but I do question where the DMs place is now. 

[Gnomezilla]

2 hours ago, LunarSol said:

I'd also argue DMs are models that are better for the game being Great than Good as they are models with a mechanical and artistic niche.  Particularly in a faction that can come across a little more mundane than the others, I think its really valuable to have models that are as eye catching as the Death Marshals appearing with some regularity.

This is true. The last three times I've caught the eye of the bystanders during a game, I've been playing dual faction and the bystander latched onto the other faction's aesthetic or gameplay. (And the only bystander in all these months who latched onto constructs in general was a girl who couldn't've been six years old. She was happy to scoot robo kitty and Malifaux girl-child around on the table, but she won't be playing for years to come.)

On the other hand, one of the game's other iconic models in the rotten belle just got downgraded, so careful what you wish for...

[Ludvig]

1 hour ago, JDAntoine said:

The range on the Pine Box. Honestly does 1 feels more logical or 2? Simply based on the model Id say 2.

If they need to wrestle you into the box it might be logical. Truth be told I don't think models and rules always add up. Adding a few more guild models with an engagement range of 2 would be nice though, that is something that bugs me with the faction as a whole.

1 hour ago, JDAntoine said:

I didnt, but the change to Frank ist too relevant to what Im adressing. Both Loco, Frank and Austringer will continue to form Guilds staples, why would you try to exclude DMs from that? Lore states them as the top league of Lady J, lore states us Lady J effectively deals with Undead problems...

I cant say it was clearly not designed that way either, if it really wasnt they could have changed the DM 2 years ago :). It was that the same list won Nova twice with the same build that lead to Frank, Loco and even Rooster changes.

As a general rule ressers have great defensive abilities but low willpower. A model that ignores all those defenses and hits their weaker stat seems like a good counter to me. I can understand why it feels like Lady Justice can't handle ressers as well as she ought to with all the incorporeal and hard to kill that she is terrible at handling but that's not really a problem with death marshals. I also didn't realize that this discussion was about marshals not performing in line with the stories, I thought we were discussing wether or not they were worth their current value in stones.

I would guess that the recent changes are directly related to Aaron replacing Justin as lead designer. With Justin at the helm errata was very uncommon. After Aaron stepped in there was a clear change of pace on errata. This may have started even earlier with the Levi and Rat change that I believe happened with Justin still running things. That errata was also a more or less direct response to a highly ranked american player bringing it to a tournament, doing well and then pulling attention to the fact that it was broken/NPE. The tournaments that are close to the game devs will probably influence which rules they see exploited in a competent way and influence errata.

 

I think guild have been placing well in all the global events like Nythera and the one with the new models, haven't they? I'm not sure what top league means but I believe they have placed ok in some tournaments even outside of the same list winning Nova several times. I'm not at all sure if guild models are strictly worse than others. I haven't played enough games with other factions to know if I would do better but I doubt it. Guild also seemed like one of the more popular factions when I did a headcount on one of the global events.

I can't edit enough since I'm going to bed so please don't take this post the wrong way if I say something in a bad way.

 

Visavi death marshals being iconic I have to ask: Have everyone so far been fine with Death Marshals being glorified taxis for an exploitative trick? That isn't a good way to use an iconic model and suck people into our faction. Why weren't more people complaining about the marshals not being used for their intended purpose before? I have been using them and sure, they're not perfect but they're hardly so bad that I need them errata'd the second they lost their boring trick. They just recieved an interesting in theme model that buffs them immensely and that hasn't been out long enough for us to know if it will lead to some interesting interactions.

[Fetid Strumpet]

The reason is for balance. Because of the way Malifaux is played. You can't create a model that is ok for its point cost but Amazing for its points cost if used against a specific enemy unless you can minimize the ability of the enemy to know that they are going to face it. Otherwise you create an incredibly and unbalanced play environment. 

[LunarSol]

48 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

I would guess that the recent changes are directly related to Aaron replacing Justin as lead designer. With Justin at the helm errata was very uncommon.

I think its partially Aaron and partially an industry trend.  All the major competitive games have been looking to find ways to be able to be more dynamic with balance adjustments.  Malifaux, Warmachine, and Guild Ball all received some pretty major redos in the last month. 

[Ludvig]

@LunarSol Interesting, I only knew about guild ball.

@Fetid Strumpet Not sure who you were responding to. In either case marshals counter low stats but high wounds, a model type that may be getting less and less play because of all the nasty conditions. Then again, our opponents don't know if we will drop Sonnia instead who counters high stats and can mostly be stopped by defensive abilities.

[Math Mathonwy]

10 hours ago, Ludvig said:

Visavi death marshals being iconic I have to ask: Have everyone so far been fine with Death Marshals being glorified taxis for an exploitative trick? That isn't a good way to use an iconic model and suck people into our faction. Why weren't more people complaining about the marshals not being used for their intended purpose before? I have been using them and sure, they're not perfect but they're hardly so bad that I need them errata'd the second they lost their boring trick. They just recieved an interesting in theme model that buffs them immensely and that hasn't been out long enough for us to know if it will lead to some interesting interactions.

I don't understand the clamoring for a buff for the DM at all. I think they are one of the best Minions in the whole game in their price class - boxing up dangerous enemies is absolutely incredible and using them as merely taxis is really doing them a disservice. Heck, I basically won my latest game by boxing up the enemy Emissary who would've otherwise killed my Master almost certainly.

In another memorable game I had an absolutely rubbish hand but then the danger of boxing fished out Red Joker and a king from the opponent when I Charged his Teddy with my DM and managed to force him to cheat first. Teddy then proceeded to eat the DM alive who dropped a Scheme Marker for Explosives and netted me VP.