The Other Side Kickstarter

[Lucidicide]

Fair enough.

The Stretch Goals help us to pay to go from sculpt to reality. We've put a lot of resources into this game already (including rules, art, and sculpting), but it takes a lot more to bring it to market. The Kickstarter is helping us have a bigger launch! When we hit the Stretch Goal, we show you what we'd like to do, and we use the pledges to make it happen. It increases the availability of units at launch.

I hope that helps!

[Xavian and Deathgrip]

2 hours ago, Aaron said:

Fair enough.

The Stretch Goals help us to pay to go from sculpt to reality. We've put a lot of resources into this game already (including rules, art, and sculpting), but it takes a lot more to bring it to market. The Kickstarter is helping us have a bigger launch! When we hit the Stretch Goal, we show you what we'd like to do, and we use the pledges to make it happen. It increases the availability of units at launch.

I hope that helps!

Thank you, that makes more sense. It's one thing to have something planned, and another to mass produce it. I am a video gamer, and after all the ridiculousness that surrounded many larger kick starters recently I have become a bit wary. Mighty number 9 was a mess, and Shenmue 3 and Bloodstained had the support of larger corporations. Part of me is paranoid of a dystopian future where the only pieces of entertainment created are the ones that people pay megacorps to make who then reap all the profits despite not having spent a dime. 

Although considering the site also created Darkest Dungeon (Bounty Hunters are one of the most fun characters I have ever played. Seriously is anyone in Malifaux comparable to them in how they play? Because if so I want to play that master), I am probably being paranoid.

 

[AverageBoss]

Honestly Kickstarter is one of the best things to happen for the miniatures game and indie games market. Too many awesome things out there right now would likely not exist without KS. There has been some abuse (MN9 being just the most famous, but far from the worst example). Shenmue was a bit shady since they apparently had corporate backing before they launched their KS, Bloodstained on the other hand received that backing near the end of its campaign, long after it had been deemed a massive success.

In Wyrds case, they are at the end of the day still a very small company. KS helps to alleviate risk, measure interest, and speed up early production so that we as players have more choices from the get go.

[Xavian and Deathgrip]

13 minutes ago, AverageBoss said:

Bloodstained on the other hand received that backing near the end of its campaign, long after it had been deemed a massive success.

Actually bloodstained had the backing already, they had already been given half of a budget by a publisher that was unsure that the game would sell. In order to gauge interest and collect their part of the funding Iga and his team went to kickstarter. I know because I got into Castlevania last year and really love the series, although the giant breasted sea monster(which also happen to be weak points...) in the Bloodstained demo has me worried. As do the upskirt panty shots whenever the character kicks. I don't mind animesque designs so long as they can be mature.

It's just that the support was mentioned in passing(by all legal rights they can be said not to have hid information and not to have lied) and only elaborated on it after the fact.

Agreed that kickstarter is great for small companies and indie titles, there are many successes, like Darkest Dungeon that I mentioned above. Or shadowrun returns series, although that one had the brand name recognition of Shadowrun. Lost ember looks quite interesting though. Fan of Okami and Ori already.

However I am currently wondering if Wyrd can be considered a small company after kickstarting a project in only 35 minutes. That is kinda insane how well that went for them.

 

[Lucidicide]

I would certainly be happier to have us be a bigger company, from time to time

It was very wonderful how quickly we funded. We have a lot of really wonderful supporters and pillars of their gaming communities that have really spoken well for us. I think the thing that makes me the most proud of us as a company is our community and that we've managed to have so many wonderful people in it. Our forum is a pretty great place for a conversation, and at cons our players are so welcoming. It's something I adore about working at Wyrd, and it things like crowdfunding it can also help tremendously.

Anyway, I'm not sure about where you should place us or whatever, but I will say our community is amazing and I'm in awe of the support they give. Ya'll rock.

[retnab]

One question for you, to take effect after the Kickstarter's over: for the sake of curiousity, can you let us know what the % of each faction being selected by the backers is?  I suspect it's going to be pretty close to 25% each but I'm interested to see if anyone's ahead or behind in that  

[Xavian and Deathgrip]

Makes sense, honestly I wonder if I have maybe been a bit difficult today. Exams just ended and I have had WAY too much time on my hands.

Agreed with you on the community, it's very very good. And don't forget that part of keeping a good community is keeping good relations, and you guys do well with that.

[-Loki-]

1 hour ago, AverageBoss said:

Honestly Kickstarter is one of the best things to happen for the miniatures game and indie games market. Too many awesome things out there right now would likely not exist without KS. There has been some abuse (MN9 being just the most famous, but far from the worst example). Shenmue was a bit shady since they apparently had corporate backing before they launched their KS, Bloodstained on the other hand received that backing near the end of its campaign, long after it had been deemed a massive success.

In Wyrds case, they are at the end of the day still a very small company. KS helps to alleviate risk, measure interest, and speed up early production so that we as players have more choices from the get go.

The unfortunate case for miniature games is the majority are so ridden with exclusive content and bonus freebies of regular content that when they hit retail, it's dead in the water. The audience that was interested in it likely mostly caught it at the kickstarter, so they're not buying anything post-kickstarter, and the ones that didn't see what was offered in the kickstarter and end up not getting it due to the retail product being so inferior.

Personally, I was pretty excited for Massive Darkness. I backed the kickstarter but backed out because it was finishing up around gencon, and there was stuff I wanted to get from Wyrd and Corvus Belli. While I remained in with a $1 pledge, I never had the money after that to buy back in at the pledge manager stage. Now? I probably wouldn't touch it at retail. Backers got about 20 more Roaming Monsters which will never see retail, a couple of extra heroes, and a free set of normal enemies. The base game is dreadfully lacking in Roaming Monsters and basic enemies so all of that was really welcome. While you can expand it somewhat by buying the base game and expansions, that cost adds up ludicrously fast, and the end result is still vastly inferior to what backers got.

In Wyrds case, for The Other Side they're offering a pretty generous discount - especially at the Commander and above levels with the added Titans at about 30% off. They're now including additional Commander models which I'm sure they'd have preferred to sell, but they're thowing them in for backers. The other stuff backers are getting don't really detract from the retail experience. A limited Fate Deck, foil unit cards. This means that when the game reaches retail, unless someone goes all out and just buys everything through the kickstarter, there's still units coming for backers to look forward to getting after reading the rules, and people that didn't back aren't left buying an inferior product in terms of actual content.

[Lucidicide]

4 minutes ago, retnab said:

One question for you, to take effect after the Kickstarter's over: for the sake of curiousity, can you let us know what the % of each faction being selected by the backers is?  I suspect it's going to be pretty close to 25% each but I'm interested to see if anyone's ahead or behind in that  

Hmmm. But my ego might take a hit to admit if one Allegiance was less popular...

4 minutes ago, Xavian and Deathgrip said:

Makes sense, honestly I wonder if I have maybe been a bit difficult today. Exams just ended and I have had WAY too much time on my hands.

I wouldn't worry about it. Even if you were being difficult (and you weren't), you were doing it respectfully.

I, on the other hand, am trying to find ways to make this whole thing more fun for me, and have thus added a fun tag to my name. Aaron. See?

[Pyrflamme]

Aaron, can you tell us anything about the dual faction commander they're talking about in the Abyssinia subforum? Is it basically just a way to play the commander in either faction, or are there additional rules like being able to bring models across the faction line?

Basically I just want to know if I have an excuse to add the KE titan to my Abyssinia/Cult order, with that dual faction commander hanging around...

[Lucidicide]

I can tell you that you cannot get the King's Hand into Abyssinia or Cult.

[Pyrflamme]

Worth crossing my fingers Looks like no smuggling a Titan across Europe into Africa for me...

[DefyingReality]

Will there possibly be a way to add the Allegiance Box commander to an order as an addon? I'm picking up Abyssinia, but I desperately want a Stormsiren model just because it's so good and so fitting for me for other reasons.

[-Loki-]

Question about the bonus commanders - will these eventually be released with their own Allegiance Box?

[Schoko]

Feels like we will see a lot of Abyssinia vs Abyssinia Battles next year.

Question: will that muzzle Flash be part of the final Modell of the emperor's hand? To me it looks much better without it.

[Absolution Black]

On 16/12/2016 at 4:42 PM, JurisprudentiallyYours said:

Yikes, didn't want to ruffle any feathers...I'm backer #173 and am pretty close to all in. Although, for one who doesn't like implications your comment on why people want LE miniatures is a pretty heavy one. I don't know all the rules though - I don't live in a glass house. 

Without delving too deeply into our offline lives and knowing that everyone online is a Dr. Astronaut-Ninja-Knows-it-All, I can only assume you were also aware that there is a fundamental difference in WHEN Wyrd gets the money...while they will certainly still be solvent if someone buys at a discount from a retailer and I would never want to paint the people who purchase Wyrd products that way in a negative light, it kind of misses the point when they are trying to crowd source funding to create the project. Again, I am likely completely wrong here...if nobody backed it, surely all the options would be available in early August for sale at a retailer, right?

My question on which type of person should be rewarded merely reflects that - crowd sourcing is a grey area between investor and consumer. Consumers receive goods and services in exchange for capital. Investors receive options and control in exchange for capital. Despite what people believe it to be, Kickstarter is not a "pre-order website." And nowhere did I mention them "hav[ing]" to have LEs. I merely hoped. You'll note that "hoping for LEs" is the binary to "hoping for no LEs." Do you take umbrage with my hope or is it simply that, based on your decision to not participate, you don't want to miss out on something unique? 

Again, you can tell by my post count I don't know all the rules. If the entire community believes that "hoping for some small token of regard in return for passive investment of an untested property" is intrinsically wrong, it's the first I've heard of it. 

Ok, I'm glad you explained your stance more as when I first read your original post it came across as a 'gimmee' post demanding LEs for being a 'loyal' supporter.

I can see that obviously how things look on the internet is not always what is meant.

I still disagree on some points, however, but I don't want to derail a thread unnecessarily.  I still don't see LE as rewards but more an enticement to back or spend more, and that's fine as it makes business sense to get as much money or funding as possible.

I like a lot of the LE models and have managed thankfully to get mine through friends or clubbing together to meet a target in the various sales wyrd has.

I don't like the obvious scalping that goes on when these LEs suddenly appear hours after release at extortionate prices, but I am not tarring every gamer or backer with the same brush. 

Thankfully wyrd have funded without the 'lure' of cheesecake extras etc , it's entirely up to them whether they release any LE models for pledges now.

As for buying later at retail, wyrd are big supporters of brick and mortar stores so I can't see them having a problem with people holding off. And my understanding is that wyrd were going ahead with the project anyway, the extra funds from the kick-starter might speed up the process and get more stuff available quicker? I could be wrong.

And wyrd have enough supporters that I didn't doubt it would fund. It's the smaller, solo designers etc where kick-starter really helps. Then I can understand it being an investment. With wyrd, CMON etc I think kick-starters just help a project along that little bit more, and aren't necessarily needed.

 

Anyway, sorry if I misinterpreted your stance, and don't worry, apart from not being a douches, there  are no real rules on here! 

[Lucidicide]

4 hours ago, DefyingReality said:

Will there possibly be a way to add the Allegiance Box commander to an order as an addon? I'm picking up Abyssinia, but I desperately want a Stormsiren model just because it's so good and so fitting for me for other reasons.

I don't know. I'll talk about it with the team this week.

[Butch]

14 hours ago, -Loki- said:

The unfortunate case for miniature games is the majority are so ridden with exclusive content and bonus freebies of regular content that when they hit retail, it's dead in the water. The audience that was interested in it likely mostly caught it at the kickstarter, so they're not buying anything post-kickstarter, and the ones that didn't see what was offered in the kickstarter and end up not getting it due to the retail product being so inferior.

I agrre. I'm tired of lots of Kickstarters. I have the feeling a lot of them is just "selling to your friends" and that's it.

I do like the way Wyrd is going with TOS. You just get a big discount. And no feeling of pressure because of limited (and sometimes IMO overprised) content. I see the TOS Kickstarter as a way to help the community to get started with a lot of people at once from the beginning. So you don't end up with a game and lots of limited content but noone near you ist playing.

[retnab]

100% agree.  It'd be so easy for Wyrd to "pad" the total that the Kickstarter gets with Malifaux exclusives and they're explicitly not doing that.  I respect the heck out of them for that, letting the Kickstarter be for TOS and that alone makes it feel a bit more honest to me.  I have every intent on helping out my LGS with purchases once this goes to retail, but as far as the Kickstarter goes I'm going to grab probably one of each unit (gotta get those limited edition cards, aw yeah) that ends up being available for the Cult and save the opportunity for buying doubles for when it goes retail.

The only thing I'm a bit concerned about is that we've definitely entered the slower period for the Kickstarter (I remember hearing somewhere that it's the first and last 2-3 days that make up the vast majority of backers), so stretch goals from here until mid-Jan are likely to be slow going.  I hope that in the next stretch goal map that Wyrd is able to do all four faction's add-ons showing up at the same point (could call it Unit Unlock 2, Commander Unlock 2, etc) so that everyone gets goodies at the same time.  Otherwise, when the Kickstarter ends if every stretch goal has not been unlocked, it would really suck if some of the factions had less add-on options than the others.

[dancater]

Echo this agreement.

LE models while nice for the folks (like 99% of us all I'm guessing) on board for the KS are in the end a short term solution which creates long term problems.

In my experience LE models may (slightly) increase the KS pledges, and if they are purchasable perhaps have a significant amount pledged effect, the problem is that those people not involved in the KS then feel less inclined to get involved.  Miniature gamers are in the end collectors in many cases (if not card stock with a picture makes a vastly cheaper physical gaming tool) and not being able to buy miniatures for a game you like or only being able to get them at vastly increased prices I think puts many potential players off.  But we are also gamers (hence the rules and play otherwise we could simply collect busts and figurines) and we want tight rules (which in my experience Wyrd does) and a LARGE, DIVERSE and good (which Malifarux is carefully developing I hope) community.  Anything which discourages people from getting involved after the short month burn of the KS will hurt that size and diversity desire.

At the very least I hope that any LE models come with an addendum that they will be available at the KS and cheaper but will later see availability as limited releases like Wyrd already does in its thrice yearly sales, this would I think be a better idea.  And I say this as someone who is already in, don't lock out potential future players with discouraging LE content they simply can't get except at grossly inflated prices.

Instead give us more content, better general release components and potentially savings so as a community we are in a position to tell interested others in the future:

"Look at this wide range or lovely miniatures and great rules, if you're interested in playing I have a couple of factions and we can play a test game to see if you like it".

Hopefully if enough of us can do that we'll have a great pool of TOS players and a constantly growing and cross pollinating community of dedicated Malifaux and TOS gamers.

So yeah instead of giving us LE miniatures I'd vote a preference for more accessible rules, mini's and material for all us early backers to use to bring people to the other side (figuratively and literally).

[Lucidicide]

Well, we are putting the rules out there for free and the stat cards, which I hope makes that part accessible to people. Add in fully assembled minis, and it's pretty easy to pick up the game and try it out.

I have high hopes for this game's future

[JDAntoine]

1 hour ago, Aaron said:

I have high hopes for this game's future

Im almost certain it will turn out really good. I do think, as with any army game, the more nation representations the better. However Im certain they will come.

[Cinnamon Bear]

I'm also hoping we might get hints of plans to come re: allegiances. Another Earth and Malifaux allegiance would be great. 

I'd obviously like to see The Guild, just based on the cool art shown during the kickstarter video, but to keep with the worldwide theme it might be interesting for them to go in another direction. Russia's Undying Tzar that got thrown out offhandedly in Nythera would also be interesting to see. 

A 3 Kingdoms or other Asian faction would also be interesting. Thailand, which is not part of the 3 Kingdoms, for instance, is one of the only countries in SE Asia to remain independent during that time period, and also heavily militarized. They actually sent troops to fight in France in WW1.

[Kobayashi]

I must say,

currently I'm still not thrilled with TOS. Though I blame it (mostly) on me loving skirmishers more than blown out war games.

Also I'm spoiled to the brink with the quirks, personality and fluff even the minions bring to Malifaux, which I am missing with TOS (at least form what I glanced through so far).

In addition with going bigger (at least scalewise), there seems to be less diversity among the commanders / masters, where Malifaux have even a lot of diversity in faction. Though I guess there needs to be a bigger identity between the allegiances (designwise) in TOS, while in Malifaux you can go for a different theme in each Crewbox (with a red thread throughout the whole factions).

This is however my initial impression and I'm still watching the Kickstarter from afar. Also this is not me screamin' and kickin' to pandering to my preferences, your funding speaks volumes already.

My take is, that you probably take this feedback as somewhat a success, since you created a game in the Malifaux-verse that seems to feel complete different and will probably offer a different experience... just not my cup of tea.

Maybe one of the interesting parts are the multibases, where you can plug in and unplug some of the minions... and I begin to think if those can be used in Malifaux (akin to the former Colette Avatar)

[-Loki-]

26 minutes ago, Kobayashi said:

Also I'm spoiled to the brink with the quirks, personality and fluff even the minions bring to Malifaux, which I am missing with TOS (at least form what I glanced through so far).

In addition with going bigger (at least scalewise), there seems to be less diversity among the commanders / masters, where Malifaux have even a lot of diversity in faction. Though I guess there needs to be a bigger identity between the allegiances (designwise) in TOS, while in Malifaux you can go for a different theme in each Crewbox (with a red thread throughout the whole factions).

The problem when you go to a bigger scale game like The Other Side is game length increases with more complexity in the rules. They've been saying The Other Side is a stramlined game, and looking at the cards (4 stats, 3 of which are defensive) and watching the gameplay video, it really does play faster than Malifaux. This is necessary. Otherwise you end up risking going the direction that Games Workshop did with 40k with its rule bloat and wind up with large games taking a whole afternoon, if not day.

About diversity compared to Malifaux, you're comparing a game that's gone though 3 editions (1, 1.5 and 2) which has been worked on and improved on for over half a decade to a game in its infancy. It was never going to launch with a product line equalling Malifaux. We also don't know how commanders theme. We can see interunit synergy already - Cults Adeodatos commander has triggers that attack through Portals, and his Allegiance box comes with the Stalking Portals unit. The Stormsiren can place additional 'Tide Pool' markers and make them hazardous, while her box comes with Striped Skulkers, which get bonuses for attacking while inside terrain. I doubt these are coincidental.

I've been wondering if the second commanders that unlock at 225k that Commander level backers get for free will get their own Allegiance box, as I'm sure they will have their own skills that synergise with different units.

26 minutes ago, Kobayashi said:

My take is, that you probably take this feedback as somewhat a success, since you created a game in the Malifaux-verse that seems to feel complete different and will probably offer a different experience... just not my cup of tea.

This would very much not be a coincidence that Malifaux players don't feel the game appeals to them. The biggest issue with launching multiple products is that you don't want to overlap your audiences. For example, when Age of Sigmar released there were store managers saying that 40k sales dropped by about the amount Age of Sigmar sales they had. Cannibalising your own audience just shifts the money they spend, it doesn't get you more money.

The Other Side is a full army game designed to appeal to people who like full army games. There will obviously be some overlap, gamers have different preferences. But they're very much targetting a different audience to those that play Malifaux, just like they targetted RPG players with Through the Breach rather than skirmish gamers. There were people that play Malifaux and bought into Through the Breach because they also like RPGs or wanted it for the fluff, but it was a game for RPG players.